Kitz ADSL Broadband Information
adsl spacer  
Support this site
Home Broadband ISPs Tech Routers Wiki Forum
 
     
   Compare ISP   Rate your ISP
   Glossary   Glossary
 
Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

News:

Pages: 1 ... 3 4 [5] 6 7

Author Topic: RAMBo being shut down?  (Read 36705 times)

tommy45

  • Reg Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 627
Re: RAMBo being shut down?
« Reply #60 on: November 27, 2014, 04:58:29 PM »

So it by it's self wont cause extra latency ?
Logged

burakkucat

  • Respected
  • Senior Kitizen
  • *
  • Posts: 38300
  • Over the Rainbow Bridge
    • The ELRepo Project
Re: RAMBo being shut down?
« Reply #61 on: November 27, 2014, 05:28:30 PM »

. . . so my only reference is my word I'm afraid.

Having been a "consumer" of your words over these last N years, they will be good enough for me on this matter!  :)

 :friends:
Logged
:cat:  100% Linux and, previously, Unix. Co-founder of the ELRepo Project.

Please consider making a donation to support the running of this site.

burakkucat

  • Respected
  • Senior Kitizen
  • *
  • Posts: 38300
  • Over the Rainbow Bridge
    • The ELRepo Project
Re: RAMBo being shut down?
« Reply #62 on: November 27, 2014, 05:31:07 PM »

I assume you know what the word 'confidential' means!

We have to remember that Max is . . . er . . . Max:D  :angel:
Logged
:cat:  100% Linux and, previously, Unix. Co-founder of the ELRepo Project.

Please consider making a donation to support the running of this site.

Bigmac77

  • Member
  • **
  • Posts: 33
Re: RAMBo being shut down?
« Reply #63 on: November 27, 2014, 07:51:45 PM »

Not even sure if DLM is off at at all. My line was put on interleaved yesterday morning due to an electrician reseting my power three times in an hour.
Logged

kitz

  • Administrator
  • Senior Kitizen
  • *
  • Posts: 33904
  • Trinity: Most guys do.
    • http://www.kitz.co.uk
Re: RAMBo being shut down?
« Reply #64 on: November 27, 2014, 07:59:28 PM »

How strange.  Someone else mentioned someone on another forum who had also seen DLM action yesterday.

Yet there are some lines (such as Starman's) who should have been hit by the DLM since Nov 22nd and hastn.
Logged
Please do not PM me with queries for broadband help as I may not be able to respond.
-----
How to get your router line stats :: ADSL Exchange Checker

Bigmac77

  • Member
  • **
  • Posts: 33
Re: RAMBo being shut down?
« Reply #65 on: November 27, 2014, 08:29:58 PM »

I have two lines one domestic the other business, both were interrupted by the electrician playing with the RCD but only the domestic line went onto interleaving. Both lines have near identical line stats so I'm slightly confused about whether DLM is deactivated or not.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2014, 10:20:21 PM by Bigmac77 »
Logged

NewtronStar

  • Kitizen
  • ****
  • Posts: 4898
Re: RAMBo being shut down?
« Reply #66 on: November 27, 2014, 09:36:29 PM »

Not even sure if DLM is off at at all. My line was put on interleaved yesterday morning due to an electrician reseting my power three times in an hour.

You should have unplugged the modem before the electrician started his work, it's not your fault of course the problem is with the BTw DLM with all it's algorithms it can sense thunderstorms but not someone turning off your electricity in quick succession, I hope that whatever comes from this the next Gen DLM will take this into account. 
« Last Edit: November 27, 2014, 09:39:36 PM by NewtronStar »
Logged

kitz

  • Administrator
  • Senior Kitizen
  • *
  • Posts: 33904
  • Trinity: Most guys do.
    • http://www.kitz.co.uk
Re: RAMBo being shut down?
« Reply #67 on: November 27, 2014, 10:12:20 PM »

I have two lines one domestic the other business, both were interrupted by the electrician playing with the RCD but only the domestic line went onto interleaving. They both lines have near identical line stats so I'm slightly confused about whether DLM is deactivated or not.

The domestic line will be on a different SVLAN to the business line and will have different QoS priorities.  Although how this would make a difference Im unsure.  I certainly think that the headline quotes of "RAMBo being shut down is inaccurate" as that implies the whole system has been shut down, which I dont believe it has.  Some parts could very well still be active.  For example the Additional line monitoring process isnt any part of the patent infringement nor is the RAP Function to name a few.

In fact the more depth I was reading last night about the patent infringement case, the more I began to realise what a complete farce it was.
ASSIA were claiming several breaches for many aspects of standard dsl technology that pre-date their patent.  Some of the points and arguments were just plain laughable, such as 'history' and using stacks to hold data.  I also read something that implied ASSIA werent just after BT but a couple of other European Telco's who also use DLM, but BT is their big target which is going to make the news. 

I must stress I didnt read it all, because it really did become petty, I got bored and it got late.  The UK law states that a patent must be a novel invention and will not include computer programming of software. Yet in this case we had ASSIA moaning that BT also used stacks to hold historic data... like how the hell else are you supposed to efficiently store data that you want to drop after x period of time  :-\
Reading between the lines, BT could not patent their code under UK law...  but the US is different.  ???

Quote
Globally, the extent to which patent law should allow the granting of patents involving software (often referred to as "software patents") is controversial and also hotly debated
Logged
Please do not PM me with queries for broadband help as I may not be able to respond.
-----
How to get your router line stats :: ADSL Exchange Checker

burakkucat

  • Respected
  • Senior Kitizen
  • *
  • Posts: 38300
  • Over the Rainbow Bridge
    • The ELRepo Project
Re: RAMBo being shut down?
« Reply #68 on: November 27, 2014, 11:34:57 PM »

I must stress I didnt read it all, because it really did become petty, . . .

That was also my conclusion. To me, it seems as if ASSIA thought they could make some money by going down that route. Unfortunately it has backfired. Oh folly, folly!
Logged
:cat:  100% Linux and, previously, Unix. Co-founder of the ELRepo Project.

Please consider making a donation to support the running of this site.

kitz

  • Administrator
  • Senior Kitizen
  • *
  • Posts: 33904
  • Trinity: Most guys do.
    • http://www.kitz.co.uk
Re: RAMBo being shut down?
« Reply #69 on: November 27, 2014, 11:56:04 PM »

That was also my conclusion. To me, it seems as if ASSIA thought they could make some money by going down that route. Unfortunately it has backfired. Oh folly, folly!

TBH when the news first broke I thought tsk tsk BT, how naughty.   The more I have read into it the less convinced Im becoming and beginning to suspect that ASSIA are doing it to make noise to promote their own product.

Whilst their press announcement makes a big deal about the case with BT and how they won.  When you start reading the actual court notes you begin to see a different side.  Their site makes no mention of the numerous points which they lost, nor the fact that one of their patents has now been totally withdrawn because they've tried to patent something that should never have been patented in the first place because its standard technology. 

So in conclusion BT have lost on one point (against the many points they won) whereby a small portion of their code on BT's system (which incidentally pre-dates ASSIA's 'invention') is similar to ASSIA's patent.

As it stands right now - I guess I really need to read the whole lot to make a properly informed judgement - but from what I have read so far this case is so petty and nit-picking its beyond belief.  I'm coming under the increasing suspicion that ASSIA are peed off because Sky & TT now use the BT DLM for FTTC, rather than ASSIA which both use for LLU.   :(
Logged
Please do not PM me with queries for broadband help as I may not be able to respond.
-----
How to get your router line stats :: ADSL Exchange Checker

burakkucat

  • Respected
  • Senior Kitizen
  • *
  • Posts: 38300
  • Over the Rainbow Bridge
    • The ELRepo Project
Re: RAMBo being shut down?
« Reply #70 on: November 28, 2014, 12:06:55 AM »

b*cat nods in agreement with your assessment of the situation.  :)
Logged
:cat:  100% Linux and, previously, Unix. Co-founder of the ELRepo Project.

Please consider making a donation to support the running of this site.

kitz

  • Administrator
  • Senior Kitizen
  • *
  • Posts: 33904
  • Trinity: Most guys do.
    • http://www.kitz.co.uk
Re: RAMBo being shut down?
« Reply #71 on: November 28, 2014, 01:45:27 AM »

Ive just noticed this on TBB

Quote from: AndrewFerguson
Update 27th November 2014: We have received a statement from BT which is reproduced in full below, and tells a slightly different story to the ASSIA release.


Quote from: BT

    "BT has been defending a claim brought by ASSIA since November 2011. They had asserted three patents against BT but during the proceedings, they had to narrow their allegations and withdraw one of these patents entirely.

    In January 2014, the High Court found BT was infringing on only a minor part of one patent, and the Court of Appeal, whilst invalidating the majority of the claims of ASSIA's other patent, ruled that BT's network infringes what remains of the other patent.

    Although BT was disappointed with the ruling, we have made minor changes to our programming which means these two decisions have no material effect on the operation or performance of our networks."
    BT Statement on DLM ruling

So all back to normal soon then?
Logged
Please do not PM me with queries for broadband help as I may not be able to respond.
-----
How to get your router line stats :: ADSL Exchange Checker

pedro492

  • Member
  • **
  • Posts: 34
Re: RAMBo being shut down?
« Reply #72 on: November 29, 2014, 02:37:12 AM »

Pedro have you had chance to read it all?

Yup, I read all four judgments from the High Court and Court of Appeal. Not the most exciting read.  On entertainment value, no match for Plebgate  ::)
 
Though for what it's worth,  my (uncounselled) opinion is that The Beast of Newgate Street has gotten herself in a right fine mess, and really should stop digging any deeper.

Let's recap why:

  • In the original trial, High Court judge Mr Justice Birss ruled that BT is infringing ASSIA's '790 patent (its Dynamic Line Management inventions).
  • Birss J ruled that BT is infringing three separate and distinct aspects of that patent; claims #1, #10 and #13 in the '790 patent.
  • BT rejected that finding and appealed. But Lord Justice Patten, Lord Justice Floyd and Mr Justice Burnton resoundingly dismissed BT's appeal.
  • Furthermore, the Appeal Court re-considered the '495 patent which ASSIA claims is also infringed.
  • The Appeal Court unequivocally ruled that BT is infringing patent '495, too; specifically, claim #6
  • The judges also allowed ASSIA to challenge the earlier finding of non-infringement of claim #1 of the '495 patent.
  • And since claim #8 of patent '495 is dependent on claim #1 of '495, that too may fall under scrutiny in a future appeal court hearing.
  • That could bring the spotlight onto the 20CN and 21CN DLM systems. BT has been operating these for many years, and they too could infringe ASSIA's patents.

But if that wasn't bad enough  -- four court cases all going against BT -- it just got even worse for The Beast...

In his High Court judgment, Mr Justice Birss noted that BT was bringing parallel opposition proceedings before the European Patent Office (EPO). See para.82 [1]

The Beast's tortured thinking here was that if it could bully the EPO into declaring ASSIA's patents invalid in some way, then it wouldn't have to pay any damages for its infringements.

But that cunning plan didn't work out either; the EPO didn't buy it.   BT has pestered the EPO four times now, over this one case, and has lost in every proceeding; this time being no exception. The EPO threw out BT's latest arguments.

The Nov 26 press release from patent lawyers Boult Wade Tennant   who represented ASSIA at the EPO proceedings is at:  [2]

It all seems it may be a bit pie in the sky anyhow, because BT claim to have already changed their system so that it no longer impedes on copyright... and its now a waiting game until it goes back to court again to see if its adjudicated that the new system is OK and free from breach of copyright.  ::)

Hmm..   Earlier, BT said that it had modified its DLM system, claiming to have removed all infringing components patented by ASSIA.   However, according to ASSIA, BT's claims were found to be untrue; it's still using those offending components.   And since this case is far from closed - with ASSIA's '495 patent still to be reconsidered - BT's infringements are likely to be ongoing, only compounding the eventual damages award.

ASSIA has spoken of a final damages award of "many millions of pounds".   A figure of £13m for each year of BT's infringing operation of ASSIA's DLM inventions was mentioned earlier in this thread.  Meaning that BT could be facing a bill of upwards of £40 million just for the FTTC DLM System.

Of tertiary note, perhaps, is BT's effort to deploy its corporate shills and stooges around the internet forums and web-boards; tasking them with putting a veneer over the company's disastrous escapades in the courts.   For example, there's a concerted effort to claim, in unattributable form, that BT's offending DLM System pre-dates ASSIA's patent, and therefore was "Prior Art" in terms of patent law.   According to the Courts that is just not true.

Furthermore, much of the terminology and functionality of the offending DLM system was discussed privately by the parties in closed court. Those disclosures while referenced in the main judgments, remain private.  Yet, interestingly, on public internet forums we're now seeing what is likely to be "strategic leaking" by BT of confidential information from the product and process description ("PPD") for the DLM Systems; information that was disclosed only in closed court.   What is BT's agenda in leaking the PPD contents; if indeed that is what is happening?  To create the impression of Prior Art to the offending DLM Systems? The Systems' methods and modes of operation being "common general knowledge", supposedly?


[1] http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/Patents/2013/3768.html
[2] http://www.boult.com/includes/documents/cm_docs/2014/b/bulletin-further-patent-successes-for-assia-over-bt.pdf
« Last Edit: November 29, 2014, 04:18:48 AM by pedro492 »
Logged
¡¡¡ no contestaré mensajes privados sobre temas que puedan tratarse en el foro !!!

kitz

  • Administrator
  • Senior Kitizen
  • *
  • Posts: 33904
  • Trinity: Most guys do.
    • http://www.kitz.co.uk
Re: RAMBo being shut down?
« Reply #73 on: November 29, 2014, 08:39:05 AM »

Rambo has been around since 2005. Theres not just me thats been writing about it since 2005 (Check on WayBack Machine) but many other broadband sites.  Its nothing to do with shills and stooges.  :(

Any discussion of the latest DLM parameters isnt BT leaking info, the info is available to all of the ISPs if they want to spend countless hours reading through stuff.  Theres tons of stuff available to them, the hard part is sorting the wheat from the chaff, no one has bothered to do so because the topic is so large and it takes a huge amount of time.  Its only the ILQ algorithm that hasnt been disclosed.  However if you feel the PPD or whatever its called has been leaked anywhere, please do let me know as I'd love to see it so the info can be shared.  Theres loads of us who'd like to know. :)

Conversations and public disclosure of any fttc information now on the new algorithms and workings is no way going to create the impression that that side of it is prior art.   Weve been discussing any FTTC DLM parameter stuff for several years on here trying to get to the bottom of it and fit all the pieces together, so I dont see how anyone could make out those discussions were prior to 2005. :hmm:

BT's been hammered for the capping side of the algorithm, so it will be interesting to see what they do/what theyve done to avoid patent copyright. 
Logged
Please do not PM me with queries for broadband help as I may not be able to respond.
-----
How to get your router line stats :: ADSL Exchange Checker

renluop

  • Kitizen
  • ****
  • Posts: 3326
Re: RAMBo being shut down?
« Reply #74 on: November 29, 2014, 10:28:26 AM »

What a tangled web is woven, and how much does the corporate world remind me of a kids' playground or a bear garden!

Any ways does Rambo himself know of all this? After all he was around in 1982! ;D

Irrelevant levity session over. :P
Logged
Pages: 1 ... 3 4 [5] 6 7
 

anything