Kitz Forum
Broadband Related => FTTC and FTTP Issues => Topic started by: tbailey2 on November 26, 2014, 08:18:23 AM
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RAMBo being shut down?
The Element Manager only has one parameter for errors which it uploads to the Management Device for DLM. As far as DLM goes all the Management Device (RAMBo) seems to need from the Element Manager is uptime, Errors, retrains & sync speed.
Got this from The Register (http://www.theregister.co.uk/2014/11/26/bt_starts_shutting_pulling_patentinfringing_boxes_from_dsl_network/) - please put it somewhere else if needs be unless it's already there!
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BT said to have pulled patent-infringing boxes (RAMBo - TB] from DSL network
BT's patent spat with US company ASSIA will start to be noticed by customers, with the carrier reportedly shutting down boxes that provide rate adaptation after it lost a crucial round of legal action.
In December 2013, Britain's High Court ruled that BT had infringed ASSIA patents by developing DSL management platforms referred to as “RAMbo” (Rate Adaptive Management Box). BT lost its appeal on November 14 (for example, there's a Lightwave report here).
Rather than cut a licensing deal with ASSIA, and faced with daily penalties of £250,000 per week if it continued running the system, El Reg has been told that BT began shutting down the boxes on November 21.
ASSIA is now taking its side of the battle to the media, saying that by withdrawing dynamic line management from its UK DSL network, the carrier is harming customers' service levels and speeds.
In an e-mail to The Register, ASSIA claims that disabling the line management “will lead to a degradation of service on a number of BT Infinity lines, and that the longer NGA-DLM is disabled, the higher the percentage of lines that will experience performance degradation.”
While ASSIA focuses on development rather than manufacturing, it's not your usual non-practising entity: its founders include broadband pioneer John Cioffi, and for some time employed University of Melbourne's Dr John Papandriopoulos on the basis of his work on dynamic line management.
BT declined to comment on ASSIA's claims. ®
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That is very interesting. Many of the LLU adsl operators managed very well (better than BT withits DLM, i would say) with no DLM but without it the ISP does need to be able to easily control line parameters and I would guess that by default BT might tend to put everyone interleaved until they complain.
Looking at one of the references http://www.lightwaveonline.com/articles/2014/11/assia-wins-another-round-in-dsl-patent-fight-with-bt.html (http://www.lightwaveonline.com/articles/2014/11/assia-wins-another-round-in-dsl-patent-fight-with-bt.html) It may just be that BT is forced to change the DLM algorithm to one totally of its own. :-X
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Here is the graph that shows the total ES since 1st August to today. Bit difficult to read but it might show something. The highest value when interleaved is about 138. I think you can see what put it back on interleaved most recently...
Added BE1's since 1st Jan - interesting!!
Thanks for those, as you say very interesting. Yours shows clear behavior but it is odd that all the excursions above 1440 go also well above 2880 and don't reveal just what errors may be needed. BE1's has some odd events. I bothers me that over those time periods all of the big error values could have been due to thunderstorms - indeed surely some must be- yet all except one of BE!'s were acted upon. It looks like the errors get very low before a recover from interleaving -- any idea how low?
However maybe RAMbo is dead or changing now.
Although not requested, I'm now testing this somewhat.
My connection on the ASUS DSL-AC68U is set according to DLM's parameters at the moment, I'm not overriding it. This means 49Mbps with an INP of 3 and a delay of 8ms. At the moment I'm getting plenty of FEC's, but absolutely no CRC errors. If DLM doesn't consider FEC then DLM presumably should increase my speed banding and/or reducing error correction hopefully within the next two to four weeks. Under the same conditions on the HG612 I would get some error seconds and also plenty of FEC.
If anyone is interested to hear the results then I'll keep everyone updated as to when DLM intervenes (if it does).
Also if RAMBo is being shutdown, what does this mean for those on speed banding and interleaving? Permanent or reset?
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surely its still active, if it was off, switching off my modem and letting it resync would mean no interleaving at all?
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surely its still active, if it was off, switching off my modem and letting it resync would mean no interleaving at all?
Not unless the DSLAM was reset to a wide open profile.
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Wow - that is interesting. :o
I'd got a hunch that something may be changing and something was a foot, but I suppose BT tech documents arent going to be the place where they will discuss this sort patents and copyright disputes.
If you notice on the DLM system page (http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/DLM_system.htm) I have this info - ~ What is a DLM Management Device (RAMBo)? (http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/DLM_system.htm)
Note: From 2014 BT is moving over to using MSE bRAS (http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/MSE_BRAS.htm). It is probable that the Management Device will be located near to the MSE bRAS rather than in the local exchange. It is also possible that they may drop the name RAMBo - Since 21CN the RAP function is a simpler procedure than when on 20CN and the DLM function has become more complex and the major function that the system now performs.
afaik its the FTTC lines that have mostly been moved to MSE bRAS (http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/MSE_BRAS.htm)
From what I can gather, not all services may have been moved over to MSE's yet.
At the present time (Oct 2014) it would appear that NGA products (ie fibre) are/have been migrated first.
and I also have this (http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/DLM_system.htm#NCAS/OSS)
Note: In 2012 BT tested a new system of central Management Devices and whether they will be/are moving to using something like the Huawei U2000 system for OSS & DLM has not been publicly disclosed.
So if and how that fits in with the infringement Ive no idea.
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Wild guess here:
Lines will continue forever at the settings they were set at on the DSALM prior to the switch off of the system.
...until either
a) a revised system is implemented
b) ASSIA suddenly realise that BT really are not going to pay and become more "accommodating".
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may have to find an openreach engineer to bribe to reset my profile, easier said than done with all these kelly communication blokes in bt vans.
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Switched off DLM will not reset it. Openreach don't care, unless u asking ISP's to push for DLM reset and Openreach will tell ISP's NO!
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So whats so different about the FTTC DLM?
BT have had patents and copyright for years for RAMBo and their existing DLM which used Interleaving and SNRm. So why now and why only FTTC. The major difference between the two systems is that FTTC uses Interleaving, INP and banding.
Ive never really looked at the ASSIA system but one of the parameters that it uses is capping a line as part of the DLM system. For example Sky which uses ASSIA are frequently capped or banded and cant move up to the next speed stage until deemed stable.
Is it possible that ASSIA have a patent which uses banding rather than SNRm parameters, and is the cause of the dispute?
The only other thing that I can think of thats new, is the way that the BToR system DLM relaxes and deems a line stable using the ILQ system and the now more complicated way it reduces steps of the DLM.
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Here is the graph that shows the total ES since 1st August to today. Bit difficult to read but it might show something. The highest value when interleaved is about 138. I think you can see what put it back on interleaved most recently...
Added BE1's since 1st Jan - interesting!!
Thanks for those, as you say very interesting. Yours shows clear behavior but it is odd that all the excursions above 1440 go also well above 2880 and don't reveal just what errors may be needed. BE1's has some odd events. I bothers me that over those time periods all of the big error values could have been due to thunderstorms - indeed surely some must be- yet all except one of BE!'s were acted upon. It looks like the errors get very low before a recover from interleaving -- any idea how low?
However maybe RAMbo is dead or changing now.
Although not requested, I'm now testing this somewhat.
My connection on the ASUS DSL-AC68U is set according to DLM's parameters at the moment, I'm not overriding it. This means 49Mbps with an INP of 3 and a delay of 8ms. At the moment I'm getting plenty of FEC's, but absolutely no CRC errors. If DLM doesn't consider FEC then DLM presumably should increase my speed banding and/or reducing error correction hopefully within the next two to four weeks. Under the same conditions on the HG612 I would get some error seconds and also plenty of FEC.
If anyone is interested to hear the results then I'll keep everyone updated as to when DLM intervenes (if it does).
Also if RAMBo is being shutdown, what does this mean for those on speed banding and interleaving? Permanent or reset?
Clearly permanent until intervention or new DLM, so its bad for those currently DLM'd.
Although isp's may gain temporary abilities to request line changes until a new DLM is made.
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surely its still active, if it was off, switching off my modem and letting it resync would mean no interleaving at all?
DLM doesnt actually set the interleaving parameters, the DSLAM does, DLM just tells the DSLAM what to do, meaning BT can and probably will maintain all existing profiles, just they will currently not be automated changes.
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Found this on BT Openreach press release:
OR
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22857/
ORC2M
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31756
GEA
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FTTC
Vectoring: Ability to identify the vectoring state of a modem/ CPE
(OSS and Network test)
This story is an enabler to support initial trials of the use of
Vectoring for GEA
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FTTC and provide lear
ning to support any
future implementation. At this time no commercial or technical
deployment decisions have been made.
It enhances the GEA Service Test for GEA
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FTTC in support of
Vectoring by enabling the vectoring state of CPE (that is
connected to a
vector enabled DSLAM) to be returned within GEA
Service Test results
DLM disabled
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Here's some more info on the ruling from HERE (http://www.lightwaveonline.com/articles/2014/11/assia-wins-another-round-in-dsl-patent-fight-with-bt.html)... (which predates the report today where they say they won't in fact pay now)
Broadband access network management software vendor ASSIA, Inc. reports the UK Court of Appeal in London has affirmed a High Court judgment against BT in a patent fight. The Court of Appeal agreed with the High Court that BT infringed on an ASSIA broadband management patent and determined that British Telecom infringes a second patent as well, this one covering dynamic spectrum management techniques.
The two patents, EP (UK) 1,869,790 and EP (UK) 2,259,495, describe methods of dynamic monitoring and automatic optimization of DSL networks. Last December, the High Court ruled that a DSL management platform BT developed infringed upon on patent 1,869,790 (see "BT infringed on ASSIA DSL patent rules UK High Court"). BT appealed the ruling, while tweaking its platform in a way it believes no longer infringes the patent.
Despite losing the appeal, BT told staff at World Intellectual Property Review that it doesn't much care, in light of the adjustment it made to its approach. However, a hearing to review BT's adjustment in relation to the patent was scheduled to take place November 13.
The court finding could be significant, given that the DSL management technique at issue underpins BT's current "Next Generation Architecture" superfast broadband initiative. The carrier serves 3.3 million customers as of September 30 via the infrastructure.
As for what happens next, pending the outcome of the November 13 hearing, it appears ASSIA would be satisfied if BT licensed its technology, which is the foundation of its DSL Expresse product.
"Today's ruling affirms ASSIA's role as an innovator in the field of broadband performance optimization," said ASSIA General Counsel Noah Mesel. "Two dozen major operators around the world license our products because they recognize the significant value ASSIA's software uniquely adds to their businesses. As BT continues to grow the part of their business that infringes ASSIA's patents, it is time for them to join companies such as AT&T, Verizon, Sky, and Bouygues, and license our software; otherwise BT should pay for infringing our patented technology."
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That's probably the most likely end result, one thing for sure is they wont run without DLM forever even tho us end users know its better without.
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I seriously doubt they'd reset all lines
1). There will be millions of lines that are likely to be on the correct profile and stable
Resetting all lines will instantly make one heck of a lot of lines unstable and flapping all over the place. The ISP's support calls would go through the roof. Most people dont have a clue about DLM and dont care. Add in the fact that most FTTC users dont even know their sync speed let alone understand that they are getting additional latency through interleaving. All they care about is line stability and not dropping in the middle of playing a game or whilst streaming a movie.
ISP's would suddenly be deluged with calls of 'My Internet keeps dropping out', which would also affect call outs for Openreach faults.
Those customers caught between changes and on a higher profile than they should be, will be comparatively few and far between.
2) DLM only calculates the profiles that should be used. It passes this info to the OSS and then its the Element Managers (http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/DLM_system.htm#element_manager) that set any relevant parameters on the DSLAM. Element Managers are used to monitor and configure DSLAMs/MSANs not just for DLM functions, but also provide status and make general configuration changes to the DSLAM/MSANs.
Those for sure will not be turned off, so any profiles already on the DSLAM will stay.
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yep, thats why I said they will keep as is, it doesnt require any work, plus unstable lines as you say would cause problems.
Newt may as well uncap his line now, as what he doing wont work with the current situation.
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Has anyone try this yet? Switch off modem and switch back on ten times in the space of 30 minutes to see if DLM has kick in?
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Has anyone try this yet? Switch off modem and switch back on ten times in the space of 30 minutes to see if DLM has kick in?
I do NOT recommend that anyone tries it. If you hit the 10 times parameter then that over-rides the normal DLM process and causes the Device Manager to go into over-drive - Monitoring then is no longer performed by the data collectors and the usual algorithms dont apply. We do not know which part of the system has been switched off.
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Then the whole of DLM switched off is more confused now.
I reckon BT will start to bring in new DLM v2 in 2015 :no:
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I reckon BT will start to bring in new DLM v2 in 2015
or it may be simpler to drop back to the previous DLM using just SNR & Interleaving? Until we know which part of the patent BT have infringed then we cant really speculate too much.
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I seriously doubt they'd reset all lines
If they did I am sure it would be to a safe well interleaved setting. :'(
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I reckon BT will start to bring in new DLM v2 in 2015
Until we know which part of the patent BT have infringed then we cant really speculate too much.
I'd imagine that might be buried in HERE (http://www.lightwaveonline.com/articles/2013/04/assia-strengthens-vdsl-vectoring-play-with-dsl-expresse-3-3.html) somewhere:
Broadband technology specialist ASSIA, Inc. has launched the latest version of its flagship broadband management and optimization platform. The company has optimized DSL Expresse 3.3 to help support the roll out of broadband access networks based on VDSL and vectoring. It also sports new features that help minimize technician truck rolls, as well as improve customer support services.
DSL Expresse is the platform through which ASSIA offers customized services, called Expresse Solutions, for its clients. This version of the platform builds off of the vectoring capabilities introduced in DSL Expresse 3.1 last fall (see “ASSIA upgrades DSL Expresse to support vectoring management”). ASSIA has had the opportunity to run vectoring field trials with DSL Expresse, and the new version takes advantages of some of the lessons learned to improve the platform’s algorithms and performance, according to George Ginis, vice president, product management.
Service providers can use DSL Expresse 3.3 to help evaluate their installed infrastructure’s ability to support high-speed services using vectoring, Ginis said. When necessary, it will recommend that particular nodes need to upgraded or new terminals installed. Overall, DSL Expresse-enabled management capabilities can reduce the percentage of lines with significant noise impairments for both vectored and non-vectored scenarios to the single digits, Ginis asserted.
DSL Expresse also will support the provision of ASSIA-supplied services that can help the service provider predict take rates, based on customer analytics. The system will support as well the combination of vectored and non-vectored traffic within the same binder, in cases where a provider wants to roll out vectored services incrementally or is operating in an unbundled, multi-carrier scenario in which not all of the carriers want to provide vectored transmission.
Combined, the capabilities not only help service providers roll out vectoring-enabled 100-Mbps VDSL services more quickly, but enable them to prioritize their roll outs to create a success-based implementation strategy, Ginis said.
"With the release of ASSIA DSL Expresse 3.3 and Expresse Solutions, ASSIA can help accelerate vectored VDSL rollouts for service providers that increasingly have to compete with cable, LTE, and emerging fiber-to-the-home services," said Stephen Wilson, senior analyst at research firm, Analysys Mason, via an ASSIA press release. "DSL Expresse is a proven, hardware-agnostic solution that can help increase customer take rates while minimizing capital expenditure on vectoring upgrade efforts."
Meanwhile, the DSL Expresse 3.3 also features upgrades to ASSIA’s ClearView expert system. ClearView can support both call center and field technician efforts to streamline troubleshooting and problem resolution. ASSIA asserts that, when paired with Expresse Solutions for customer care automation, DSL Expresse has improved the productivity of customer care professionals by at least 50%.
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I find it ironic they claim their technology improves performance when DLM only slows down lines.
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It reduces packet loss and retransmits so less bandwidth is wasted resending packets.
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The ASSIA patents in question aren't (AIUI - and I may well be mistaken) in general to do with the nitty-gritty of DLM, its more to do with the management of those lines and how that is handled.
None of this has any impact whatsoever on on the current Openreach "fibre" services (VDSL2). AIUI this relates to BT Wholesale/Retail ADSL services only.
For those having a pop at ASSIA - they pioneered DSL profiling/management solutions a LONG time before BT came to the party. Been a very very long time since BT pioneered anything & the infringements saved BT multiple millions in customer support so I have more sympathy for ASSIA than BT.
My personal opinion is that BT will come back to the table when they are forced to rollout vectoring - and again this is about how you MANAGE vectoring/profiling/etc, not how you implement it.
Not a great fan of s/w patents but BT are taking the proverbial on this one - and they know it.
Edit - and in a different thread on these boards I go on about how good Sky DLM is, that's not down to Sky having great hardware - its mainly down to g.INP firmware support and the ASSIA management suite.
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I'd imagine that might be buried in HERE (http://www.lightwaveonline.com/articles/2013/04/assia-strengthens-vdsl-vectoring-play-with-dsl-expresse-3-3.html) somewhere:
I think you may be right in that it is 'something' to do with the vdsl system.
For those having a pop at ASSIA
I dont see that anyone has :-\ (so far) :P
My personal opinion is that BT will come back to the table when they are forced to rollout vectoring - and again this is about how you MANAGE vectoring/profiling/etc, not how you implement it
The system profiles will have to change anyhow to account for vectoring. Bet BT are busy beavers atm.
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I'd imagine that might be buried in HERE (http://www.lightwaveonline.com/articles/2013/04/assia-strengthens-vdsl-vectoring-play-with-dsl-expresse-3-3.html) somewhere:
I think you may be right in that it is 'something' to do with the vdsl system.
For those having a pop at ASSIA
I dont see that anyone has :-\ (so far) :P
My personal opinion is that BT will come back to the table when they are forced to rollout vectoring - and again this is about how you MANAGE vectoring/profiling/etc, not how you implement it
The system profiles will have to change anyhow to account for vectoring. Bet BT are busy beavers atm.
I wonder if this will motivate them into rolling out things like vectoring, who knows maybe it will help :P.
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I am just glad this Rambo shutdown thread was made or would have missed Kitz's DLM system tutorial very well worded and can undertand most of it 10 out of 10 and thanks :thumbs:
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Ive only very quickly scanned the patent. I need about 6 hrs to read it all in depth. ???
ASSIA file a patent infringement against BT's 20CN,21CN & NGA (multi service) DLM. The court adjudicates that only the "NGA broadband network system infringes EP1869790
The above implies that the issue is just with FTTC.
DLM & RAMBo technology was properly patented and already implemented by BT before ASSIA filed EP186970 in Feb 2006 & Published May 2012.
ASSIA doesnt seem to have had an issue with RAMBo until quite recently.. and some of us oldies have been controlled by RAMBo since 2005.
So what has changed...
1) In circa 2010 BT has expanded their DLM system to include the FTTC Network, meaning that the BT's DLM system now monitored and a cross platform of xDSL products (BT's previous system only covered ADSL and not FTTC).
ASSIA's patent filed in 2006 shows DLM used for FTTC and they specifically mention DLM for DSLAMs in FTTC cabinets - unlike BTs original RAMBo patent which just mentions DSLAM.
2) BT's original patent mentions adjustable parameters and gives an example of Interleaving and target SNR Margin, as being likely parameters.
ASSIA's patent of 2006, acknowledges that other DLM systems are in place, but specifically mentions "Band Control" ie banding. Its well known that ASSIA use banding in their profiles because thats what SKY use. BT didnt use banding as a parameter until FTTC. (incidentally BT got a real bee in their bonnet about DMTtool and people over-riding the target SNR Margin)
3) The patent mentions something at first glance that perhaps looks like BTs ILQ system for returning the line profile back down if deemed stable.
4) BT have recently been installing MSE bRAS and also testing a more centralised form of OSS rather than have a RAMBo box at each exchange. As far as can be ascertained, mostly only FTTC lines have so far been moved to MSE bRAS, which have their own 'RAMBo'.
ASSIA is a centralised system.
5) BT are currently rehashing their DLM due to the vectoring roll out plan. This is already in progress, but we have little information.
So take your pick which/if/any/all of those it is.
ASSIA are likely most unhappy because the likes of Sky and TT (who use ASSIA for their LLU systems) with FTTC now use the BT DLM system, so they've lost revenue. By BT expanding their own DLM system to include GEA, income from Sky and TT will be reduced.
.. and the current situation is :
ASSIA says to BT pay us £250,000 per week. BT says go stuff yourself. ASSIA says "without DLM BT's customers will suffer". BT turns off FTTC DLM.
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Thanks NS. It will be interesting to see what BT come up with next though.
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Several High Court hearings have been held to determine this case. [1] [2] [3] [4] Concerning BT's infringement of Claims described in two European Patents. The Court referred to those two Patents as the '495 and the '790 Patents. Both Patents were filed and are owned by Adaptive Spectrum and Signal Alignment, Inc (ASSIA) of Redwood, CA. [5] [6].
In his High Court ruling of December 2013, Mr Justice Birss found in favour of the claimant (ASSIA); that the defendant, British Telecom plc, had indeed infringed ASSIA's patent '790 concerning its DLM (Dynamic Line Management) invention.
In particular the infringement arose from BT's implementation of an apparent clone of ASSIA's "Profile State Transition Matrix" (PSTM). The PSTM is a software mechanism used in a Finite State Machine of a DLM System to adaptively manage a DSL; moving the line between configuration profiles, according to loop conditions, both current and historic.
The use of a Profile State Transition Matrix is described in ASSIA's patent '790. [6]
BT appealed the December 2013 judgment. But late last month (Oct 2014) that appeal was dismissed. [3]
Further, the Court of Appeal found that BT had also infringed ASSIA's '495 patent. Consequently, ASSIA was allowed to appeal the 2013 ruling over BT's alleged infringement of another Claim in that '495 patent.
In the most recent Court hearing, BT sought to quash ASSIA's interim award for damages of £250,000 per week. Calculated as 10% of BT's weekly revenues from its NGA products, and to be paid while the infringing DLM software remains in use. BT unsuccessfully argued that it was too early to quantify damages.
Not the finest moment for Great Aunt Beatty.
[1] http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/Patents/2013/3768.html (3 Dec 2013)
[2] http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/Patents/2014/2730.html (22 Jul 2014)
[3] http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWCA/Civ/2014/1462.html (11 Nov 2014)
[4] http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWCA/Civ/2014/1513.html (21 Nov 2014)
[5] http://www.google.com/patents/EP2259495A1 (filed Dec 2004)
[6] http://www.google.com/patents/EP1869790B1 (filed Feb 2006)
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I'd imagine that might be buried in HERE (http://www.lightwaveonline.com/articles/2013/04/assia-strengthens-vdsl-vectoring-play-with-dsl-expresse-3-3.html) somewhere:
I think you may be right in that it is 'something' to do with the vdsl system.
For those having a pop at ASSIA
I dont see that anyone has :-\ (so far) :P
My personal opinion is that BT will come back to the table when they are forced to rollout vectoring - and again this is about how you MANAGE vectoring/profiling/etc, not how you implement it
The system profiles will have to change anyhow to account for vectoring. Bet BT are busy beavers atm.
I wonder if this will motivate them into rolling out things like vectoring, who knows maybe it will help :P.
No it won't - BT will be the last of the Euro telecos to implement it.
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The prefered DLM for my line would be ASSAI as BT's DLM is to busy with the SNRm thats ok for users with a steady SNRm but it's not my fault the RFI is causing this would rather be capped and have the same functionality as EU's who have a stable SNRm.
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In particular the infringement arose from BT's implementation of an apparent clone of ASSAI's "Profile State Transition Matrix" (PSTM). The PSTM is a software mechanism used in a Finite State Machine of a DLM System to adaptively manage a DSL; moving the line between configuration profiles, according to loop conditions, both current and historic.
The use of a Profile State Transition Matrix is described in ASSAI's patent '790. [6]
Not the finest moment for Great Aunt Beatty.
Welcome pedro.
Thanks for all that info, although I think I'd need a while to digest it all. The PSTM would seem to explain it.
As mentioned in my earlier post >> The patent mentions something at first glance that perhaps looks like BTs ILQ system for returning the line profile back down if deemed stable.
So I guess there we have it.
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The prefered DLM for my line would be ASSAI as BT's DLM is to busy with the SNRm thats ok for users with a steady SNRm but it's not my fault the RFI is causing this would rather be capped and have the same functionality as EU's who have a stable SNRm.
I dunno NS. Personally I prefer BT's DLM to SKy's. My parent's line suffers from occasional bouts of SHINE and possibly PEIN which Ive never been able to trace.
The result on Sky was anything between 1.6 to a little over 2Mb. It also applied interleaving at a massive depth and despite numerous phone calls the least latency was something stupid like 56ms to BBC and on occasions was nearing 98ms. Because the system worked backwards you have to prove your line is stable, before it will move up to the next step. Dads line couldn't manage the stability level to get up to the next step.
In the end he moved away from Sky in March this year because he was sick of the line performance, he couldnt stream anything and was sick of trying to speak to Sky about it. The line sync'd straight away at around 8Mb. I thought the BT DLM would get him quite soon, but as it turned out it left him alone for a couple of months before applying interleaving. Last time I looked he's syncing at about 7Mb with Interleaving, latency to the BBC is around 24ms.
When I say it works backwards, look at it this way, currently you are struggling to get off Interleaving, but the BT DLM only applied it because you'd hit the threshold which deemed your line as unstable. With dads line on Sky, it was never even given the opportunity to at least try it and see.
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DLM : http://www.google.com/patents/EP2415208A1?cl=en
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So BT are essentially arguing against an award which costs them £13 million/year and have thrown their toys out of the pram ::)
I find it completely unbelievable that BT group have a weekly revenue of only £2.5m on FTTC products.
Pull the other one lads, it has bells on :lol:
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BT will going to reprogramme and have their own DLM system soon (probably far better than ASSIA DLM and will not deal with them in future to save BT's cost).
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The prefered DLM for my line would be ASSAI as BT's DLM is to busy with the SNRm thats ok for users with a steady SNRm but it's not my fault the RFI is causing this would rather be capped and have the same functionality as EU's who have a stable SNRm.
I dunno NS. Personally I prefer BT's DLM to SKy's. My parent's line suffers from occasional bouts of SHINE and possibly PEIN which Ive never been able to trace.
The result on Sky was anything between 1.6 to a little over 2Mb. It also applied interleaving at a massive depth and despite numerous phone calls the least latency was something stupid like 56ms to BBC and on occasions was nearing 98ms. Because the system worked backwards you have to prove your line is stable, before it will move up to the next step. Dads line couldn't manage the stability level to get up to the next step.
In the end he moved away from Sky in March this year because he was sick of the line performance, he couldnt stream anything and was sick of trying to speak to Sky about it. The line sync'd straight away at around 8Mb. I thought the BT DLM would get him quite soon, but as it turned out it left him alone for a couple of months before applying interleaving. Last time I looked he's syncing at about 7Mb with Interleaving, latency to the BBC is around 24ms.
When I say it works backwards, look at it this way, currently you are struggling to get off Interleaving, but the BT DLM only applied it because you'd hit the threshold which deemed your line as unstable. With dads line on Sky, it was never even given the opportunity to at least try it and see.
It doesn't work that way now and what your dad's line needed was the line history erased. Anyway I hear you on older DLM stuff - it really does work these days though kitz :)
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BT will going to reprogramme and have their own DLM system soon (probably far better than ASSIA DLM and will not deal with them in future to save BT's cost).
Cool, then they can sell it to most of the rest of the world's ISPs too. I doubt they'd trust anything from uk.gov's prime contractor though.
YMMV :)
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BT will going to reprogramme and have their own DLM system soon (probably far better than ASSIA DLM and will not deal with them in future to save BT's cost).
We know the way the current DLM works as a system but we do not know the threshold parameters, if BTw re-programmed the software those TS parameters will be left unchanged for FTTC until a different type of broadband technology is added to the BT infrustructure
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I just powered down Billion 8800NL and wait for 30 minutes and turn back on. It's the same line rate max, and the same snr. Look like it make no difference of DLM on or off. The interleave depth still 1.1
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I just powered down Billion 8800NL and wait for 30 minutes and turn back on. It's the same line rate max, and the same snr. Look like it make no difference of DLM on or off. The interleave depth still 1.1
The DLM has not been turned off it's a headline there will be no effect to EU's today tomorrow or 6 months on yes the headline looks bad but thats the way media is used these days to shock and grab your attention ;)
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Hang on...are you saying BT DLM is not turned off yet? If the DLM still active then BT is lying to ASSIA in court!
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Welcome pedro.
Hi, kitz and all.
I find it completely unbelievable that BT group have a weekly revenue of only £2.5m on FTTC products.
It is difficult to believe. BT boasted in its latest (Q2) results that it now has 3.4 million FTTC subscriber lines. [1] Implying revenues of just 73½p a week per FTTC subscriber! Though that was ASSIA's estimate, and not BT's. (see para.5 of [2] )
So maybe it was a ruse; a red herring from ASSIA's counsel. Leave the judge questioning the 10% royalties that ASSIA claims it is due, while the gross under-estimate of BT's overall revenues from FTTC passed completely unchallenged. At a later date, ASSIA can then point to accurate, audited FTTC revenues for BT and demand much larger damages.
Even more concerning perhaps (for BT) is the Court of Appeal ruling that its DLM system also infringes that earlier '495 patent from 2004. Relating perhaps to the DLM system used in 20CN and 21CN; i.e. the DLM system/s in BT's ADSL offerings. If that allegation is proved correct, then it could perhaps result in a much larger damages award to ASSIA, since it would cover an infringing period of nearly a decade; involving many more DSL lines, and thus far greater revenues for BT.
From briefly reading those judgments, it was strange to find BT arguing that ASSIA had failed to reverse-engineer its DLM System, and it therefore couldn't prove that it has used an offending Profile State Transition Matrix in its implementation. (see para.28 in [3] )
Why didn't the Court just order BT to open up its DLM System source code for independent auditing? To confirm, one way or the other, whether it has used a PSTM? Isn't that what normally happens? Independent code auditing?
That said, the trial judge (Mr Justice Birss) was refreshingly adept at understanding all the relevant concepts of DSL, DSM, DLM and so on. It doesn't seem that long ago when someone had to quietly explain to a judge what the internet is! :-X
[1] http://www.btplc.com/Sharesandperformance/Quarterlyresults/Quarterlyresults.htm
[2] http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWCA/Civ/2014/1513.html
[3] http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWCA/Civ/2014/1462.html
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Hang on...are you saying BT DLM is not turned off yet? If the DLM still active then BT is lying to ASSIA in court!
The DLM cannot be be turned off thoughout the UK without BT having a secondary DLM in action if the headline is correct BT will do this in a gradual phaze over many months.
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Someone has confirmed that DLM is still active on FTTC connections, having had their speed banding apparently reduced by DLM yesterday.
See http://forums.overclockers.co.uk/showpost.php?p=27267941&postcount=585 over at OcUK.
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Someone has confirmed that DLM is still active on FTTC connections, having had their speed banding apparently reduced by DLM yesterday.
See http://forums.overclockers.co.uk/showpost.php?p=27267941&postcount=585 over at OcUK.
if you look back to posts by BS and Kitz. BT is slowly changing the DLM wether this is a result of this case or not BT has a plan B and as an EU you won't notice any transition from one DLM to another so the world still goes on as normal.
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as an EU you won't notice any transition from one DLM to another so the world still goes on as normal.
How reassuring! No biggy, of course, as BT's share price was up at close, and that's all that really matters!
And in PR terms, how neat that this Bad News From The Courts has gotten buried beneath the excitement over BT's plans to buy-out O2.
Very Fortuitous Timing, if nothing else!
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And in PR terms, how neat that this Bad News From The Courts has gotten buried beneath the excitement over BT's plans to buy-out O2.
Very Fortuitous Timing, if nothing else!
it looks like a clear case of propaganda to me, the question is who set it up ;)
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Im trying to read through the court case notes provided by pedro, Ive still got one heck of a lot of reading to do. Pedro have you had chance to read it all?
From what I can gather so far, much of the argument seems to be over the use of 'historic data' in deciding whether to reprofile the line. ASSIA call this PSTM and it seems to in a way equate to BTs ILQ. Ive mentioned ILQ in the other thread a few times. Its what replaced blip logic and I think Ive mentioned a few times how the new method by using past records it doubles time before any further changes are made... and its why some lines take longer than others to recover from say Interleaving.
TBH Ive had to stop reading now as I have to be up early tomorrow, but the argument over historic and the fact for FTTC data is stored on Yukon before going to Rambo seemed a bit petty [111].. but hey ho (Yukon is only used by the fttc cabs)
The point was that on one view it was the Yukon not the RAMBo which collected the data and so, by the time the RAMBo itself collected the data, it was indeed not current.
Ive still got loads of reading to do, but that would have to be left to someone with on hell of a lot more time than me.
But my conclusion so far is that it appears ASSIA are not happy with the way BT's FTTC system stores historic data to decide when a line should be re-profiled which is similar to ASSIA's PSTM
I dont [think] they are disputing immediate changes that the DLM makes... but just the ILQ system of learn from past mistakes /doubler part of the system.
It all seems it may be a bit pie in the sky anyhow, because BT claim to have already changed their system so that it no longer impedes on copyright... and its now a waiting game until it goes back to court again to see if its adjudicated that the new system is OK and free from breach of copyright. ::)
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It reduces packet loss and retransmits so less bandwidth is wasted resending packets.
in theory.
we know it doesnt work perfect.
I expect there is many cases where DLM over reacts to a one off issue which in effect reduces performance.
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I'd imagine that might be buried in HERE (http://www.lightwaveonline.com/articles/2013/04/assia-strengthens-vdsl-vectoring-play-with-dsl-expresse-3-3.html) somewhere:
I think you may be right in that it is 'something' to do with the vdsl system.
For those having a pop at ASSIA
I dont see that anyone has :-\ (so far) :P
My personal opinion is that BT will come back to the table when they are forced to rollout vectoring - and again this is about how you MANAGE vectoring/profiling/etc, not how you implement it
The system profiles will have to change anyhow to account for vectoring. Bet BT are busy beavers atm.
I wonder if this will motivate them into rolling out things like vectoring, who knows maybe it will help :P.
No it won't - BT will be the last of the Euro telecos to implement it.
Interesting regarding vectoring I Was wondering if BT were planning to merge vectoring into their DLM system, as I have read comments in places that the FTTC DLM isnt just about error control but also BT use DLM to manage PSD masks aka crosstalk control.
and yeah, it wouldnt surprise me if BT were the last EU telco to enable vectoring. They very tip toe'y on new tech. I think this will delay vectoring if anything.
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Vectoring is rolling out as we speak, and the DLM is/was in the process of being 'looked at' to accommodate the new technology. This is what I am reading within the confidential docs that are visible to myself.
However, there are mountains of docs surrounding DLM and its architecture. It is the most complicated thing I've ever seen. I posted elsewhere (Don't know where though) about one snippet that I came across, which states the reporting system sends up to 40 (approx. ?) events to DLM ....... some every 15mins, some every 6hrs. I seem to also remember power per-tone, SNR per-tone was also in that list of events ?
The revelation about DLM being switched off, I have no idea about ?? I can say that I would have expected the OR DSL engineering community to have been informed of such practices, if it is to be implemented ??
NB .... I won't be posting up confidential docs, so my only reference is my word I'm afraid.
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Vectoring is rolling out as we speak, and the DLM is/was in the process of being 'looked at' to accommodate the new technology. This is what I am reading within the confidential docs that are visible to myself.
However, there are mountains of docs surrounding DLM and its architecture. It is the most complicated thing I've ever seen. I posted elsewhere (Don't know where though) about one snippet that I came across, which states the reporting system sends up to 40 (approx. ?) events to DLM ....... some every 15mins, some every 6hrs. I seem to also remember power per-tone, SNR per-tone was also in that list of events ?
The revelation about DLM being switched off, I have no idea about ?? I can say that I would have expected the OR DSL engineering community to have been informed of such practices, if it is to be implemented ??
NB .... I won't be posting up confidential docs, so my only reference is my word I'm afraid.
Interesting. Thanks for the insight, good to hear vectoring is rolling out - though depending on how fast that rollout is happening and hopefully includes both Huawei and ECI cabinets (last the public heard was that it was in a second trial I believe).
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NB .... I won't be posting up confidential docs, so my only reference is my word I'm afraid.
sound selfish not to share with us?
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I assume you know what the word 'confidential' means!
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Vectoring , will this have a negative impact on latency in that vectoring will increase it ? If so they can keep it off my connection i ain't interested in extra speed 74-75mbps is enough for now,
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Reading this article makes me think if it is off its going to be very temporary, probably early December a modified version of DLM will be reinstated.
http://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.php/2014/11/uk-court-appeal-rules-bt-fttc-broadband-infringes-assia-patents.html
Tommy vectoring is noise cancellation technology, meaning it will be less likely you will get interleaved due to less errors caused by crosstalk, if that makes sense.
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So it by it's self wont cause extra latency ?
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. . . so my only reference is my word I'm afraid.
Having been a "consumer" of your words over these last N years, they will be good enough for me on this matter! :)
:friends:
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I assume you know what the word 'confidential' means!
We have to remember that Max is . . . er . . . Max! :D :angel:
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Not even sure if DLM is off at at all. My line was put on interleaved yesterday morning due to an electrician reseting my power three times in an hour.
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How strange. Someone else mentioned someone on another forum who had also seen DLM action yesterday.
Yet there are some lines (such as Starman's) who should have been hit by the DLM since Nov 22nd and hastn.
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I have two lines one domestic the other business, both were interrupted by the electrician playing with the RCD but only the domestic line went onto interleaving. Both lines have near identical line stats so I'm slightly confused about whether DLM is deactivated or not.
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Not even sure if DLM is off at at all. My line was put on interleaved yesterday morning due to an electrician reseting my power three times in an hour.
You should have unplugged the modem before the electrician started his work, it's not your fault of course the problem is with the BTw DLM with all it's algorithms it can sense thunderstorms but not someone turning off your electricity in quick succession, I hope that whatever comes from this the next Gen DLM will take this into account.
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I have two lines one domestic the other business, both were interrupted by the electrician playing with the RCD but only the domestic line went onto interleaving. They both lines have near identical line stats so I'm slightly confused about whether DLM is deactivated or not.
The domestic line will be on a different SVLAN to the business line and will have different QoS priorities. Although how this would make a difference Im unsure. I certainly think that the headline quotes of "RAMBo being shut down is inaccurate" as that implies the whole system has been shut down, which I dont believe it has. Some parts could very well still be active. For example the Additional line monitoring process (http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/DLM_system.htm#DLM_additional_monitoring) isnt any part of the patent infringement nor is the RAP Function (http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/DLM_system.htm#RAP) to name a few.
In fact the more depth I was reading last night about the patent infringement case, the more I began to realise what a complete farce it was.
ASSIA were claiming several breaches for many aspects of standard dsl technology that pre-date their patent. Some of the points and arguments were just plain laughable, such as 'history' and using stacks to hold data. I also read something that implied ASSIA werent just after BT but a couple of other European Telco's who also use DLM, but BT is their big target which is going to make the news.
I must stress I didnt read it all, because it really did become petty, I got bored and it got late. The UK law states that a patent must be a novel invention and will not include computer programming of software. Yet in this case we had ASSIA moaning that BT also used stacks to hold historic data... like how the hell else are you supposed to efficiently store data that you want to drop after x period of time :-\
Reading between the lines, BT could not patent their code under UK law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_patents_under_United_Kingdom_patent_law)... but the US is different. ???
Globally, the extent to which patent law should allow the granting of patents involving software (often referred to as "software patents") is controversial and also hotly debated
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I must stress I didnt read it all, because it really did become petty, . . .
That was also my conclusion. To me, it seems as if ASSIA thought they could make some money by going down that route. Unfortunately it has backfired. Oh folly, folly!
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That was also my conclusion. To me, it seems as if ASSIA thought they could make some money by going down that route. Unfortunately it has backfired. Oh folly, folly!
TBH when the news first broke I thought tsk tsk BT, how naughty. The more I have read into it the less convinced Im becoming and beginning to suspect that ASSIA are doing it to make noise to promote their own product.
Whilst their press announcement (http://www.assia-inc.com/pressreleases/uk-high-court-holds-british-telecom-liable-for-infringing-patented-assia-technology/) makes a big deal about the case with BT and how they won. When you start reading the actual court notes you begin to see a different side. Their site makes no mention of the numerous points which they lost, nor the fact that one of their patents has now been totally withdrawn because they've tried to patent something that should never have been patented in the first place because its standard technology.
So in conclusion BT have lost on one point (against the many points they won) whereby a small portion of their code on BT's system (which incidentally pre-dates ASSIA's 'invention') is similar to ASSIA's patent.
As it stands right now - I guess I really need to read the whole lot to make a properly informed judgement - but from what I have read so far this case is so petty and nit-picking its beyond belief. I'm coming under the increasing suspicion that ASSIA are peed off because Sky & TT now use the BT DLM for FTTC, rather than ASSIA which both use for LLU. :(
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b*cat nods in agreement with your assessment of the situation. :)
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Ive just noticed this (http://www.thinkbroadband.com/news/6726-assia-court-case-forces-openreach-to-turn-off-dlm.html) on TBB
Update 27th November 2014: We have received a statement from BT which is reproduced in full below, and tells a slightly different story to the ASSIA release.
"BT has been defending a claim brought by ASSIA since November 2011. They had asserted three patents against BT but during the proceedings, they had to narrow their allegations and withdraw one of these patents entirely.
In January 2014, the High Court found BT was infringing on only a minor part of one patent, and the Court of Appeal, whilst invalidating the majority of the claims of ASSIA's other patent, ruled that BT's network infringes what remains of the other patent.
Although BT was disappointed with the ruling, we have made minor changes to our programming which means these two decisions have no material effect on the operation or performance of our networks."
BT Statement on DLM ruling
So all back to normal soon then?
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Pedro have you had chance to read it all?
Yup, I read all four judgments from the High Court and Court of Appeal. Not the most exciting read. On entertainment value, no match for Plebgate ::)
Though for what it's worth, my (uncounselled) opinion is that The Beast of Newgate Street has gotten herself in a right fine mess, and really should stop digging any deeper.
Let's recap why:
- In the original trial, High Court judge Mr Justice Birss ruled that BT is infringing ASSIA's '790 patent (its Dynamic Line Management inventions).
- Birss J ruled that BT is infringing three separate and distinct aspects of that patent; claims #1, #10 and #13 in the '790 patent.
- BT rejected that finding and appealed. But Lord Justice Patten, Lord Justice Floyd and Mr Justice Burnton resoundingly dismissed BT's appeal.
- Furthermore, the Appeal Court re-considered the '495 patent which ASSIA claims is also infringed.
- The Appeal Court unequivocally ruled that BT is infringing patent '495, too; specifically, claim #6
- The judges also allowed ASSIA to challenge the earlier finding of non-infringement of claim #1 of the '495 patent.
- And since claim #8 of patent '495 is dependent on claim #1 of '495, that too may fall under scrutiny in a future appeal court hearing.
- That could bring the spotlight onto the 20CN and 21CN DLM systems. BT has been operating these for many years, and they too could infringe ASSIA's patents.
But if that wasn't bad enough -- four court cases all going against BT -- it just got even worse for The Beast...
In his High Court judgment, Mr Justice Birss noted that BT was bringing parallel opposition proceedings before the European Patent Office (EPO). See para.82 [1]
The Beast's tortured thinking here was that if it could bully the EPO into declaring ASSIA's patents invalid in some way, then it wouldn't have to pay any damages for its infringements.
But that cunning plan didn't work out either; the EPO didn't buy it. BT has pestered the EPO four times now, over this one case, and has lost in every proceeding; this time being no exception. The EPO threw out BT's latest arguments.
The Nov 26 press release from patent lawyers Boult Wade Tennant who represented ASSIA at the EPO proceedings is at: [2]
It all seems it may be a bit pie in the sky anyhow, because BT claim to have already changed their system so that it no longer impedes on copyright... and its now a waiting game until it goes back to court again to see if its adjudicated that the new system is OK and free from breach of copyright. ::)
Hmm.. Earlier, BT said that it had modified its DLM system, claiming to have removed all infringing components patented by ASSIA. However, according to ASSIA, BT's claims were found to be untrue; it's still using those offending components. And since this case is far from closed - with ASSIA's '495 patent still to be reconsidered - BT's infringements are likely to be ongoing, only compounding the eventual damages award.
ASSIA has spoken of a final damages award of "many millions of pounds". A figure of £13m for each year of BT's infringing operation of ASSIA's DLM inventions was mentioned earlier in this thread. Meaning that BT could be facing a bill of upwards of £40 million just for the FTTC DLM System.
Of tertiary note, perhaps, is BT's effort to deploy its corporate shills and stooges around the internet forums and web-boards; tasking them with putting a veneer over the company's disastrous escapades in the courts. For example, there's a concerted effort to claim, in unattributable form, that BT's offending DLM System pre-dates ASSIA's patent, and therefore was "Prior Art" in terms of patent law. According to the Courts that is just not true.
Furthermore, much of the terminology and functionality of the offending DLM system was discussed privately by the parties in closed court. Those disclosures while referenced in the main judgments, remain private. Yet, interestingly, on public internet forums we're now seeing what is likely to be "strategic leaking" by BT of confidential information from the product and process description ("PPD") for the DLM Systems; information that was disclosed only in closed court. What is BT's agenda in leaking the PPD contents; if indeed that is what is happening? To create the impression of Prior Art to the offending DLM Systems? The Systems' methods and modes of operation being "common general knowledge", supposedly?
[1] http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/Patents/2013/3768.html
[2] http://www.boult.com/includes/documents/cm_docs/2014/b/bulletin-further-patent-successes-for-assia-over-bt.pdf
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Rambo has been around since 2005. Theres not just me thats been writing about it since 2005 (Check on WayBack Machine) but many other broadband sites. Its nothing to do with shills and stooges. :(
Any discussion of the latest DLM parameters isnt BT leaking info, the info is available to all of the ISPs if they want to spend countless hours reading through stuff. Theres tons of stuff available to them, the hard part is sorting the wheat from the chaff, no one has bothered to do so because the topic is so large and it takes a huge amount of time. Its only the ILQ algorithm that hasnt been disclosed. However if you feel the PPD or whatever its called has been leaked anywhere, please do let me know as I'd love to see it so the info can be shared. Theres loads of us who'd like to know. :)
Conversations and public disclosure of any fttc information now on the new algorithms and workings is no way going to create the impression that that side of it is prior art. Weve been discussing any FTTC DLM parameter stuff for several years on here trying to get to the bottom of it and fit all the pieces together, so I dont see how anyone could make out those discussions were prior to 2005. :hmm:
BT's been hammered for the capping side of the algorithm, so it will be interesting to see what they do/what theyve done to avoid patent copyright.
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What a tangled web is woven, and how much does the corporate world remind me of a kids' playground or a bear garden!
Any ways does Rambo himself know of all this? After all he was around in 1982! ;D
Irrelevant levity session over. :P
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:lol: All John Rambo wanted to do was, "Just pass through" ........................ look at the sh1t-fest he's created !! ;D.
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What's interesting about all this talk about DLM being shut down and rumours of vectoring being rolled out soon is that on the ASSIA website blog there's an illustration showing the current roll out of vectoring worldwide.
The 'legend' on the illustration shows this:
(https://forum.kitz.co.uk/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs29.postimg.org%2F5tnl2w6mf%2Fimage.png&hash=ec70dccb87bda02e81457b19bbbde56f801fc586)
On the map it shows the UK's current status:
(https://forum.kitz.co.uk/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs29.postimg.org%2F8p59ni003%2Fimage.png&hash=d8d8d36858a7b07e3600727cbbeb1c4457aeaca4)
Maybe I'm reading it wrong, but does this look like BT will be rolling it out in the 1st half or final quarter of 2014 using ASSIA technology?
If this is so are we just waiting for a switch-on date? The legend is a little confusing.
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What a tangled web is woven, and how much does the corporate world remind me of a kids' playground or a bear garden!
Isnt it just ::)
Maybe I'm reading it wrong, but does this look like BT will be rolling it out in the 1st half of 2014 using ASSIA technology?
Without doubt they will have patented vectoring controls with their Expresse management system. But Vectoring is a technology that they cannot lay claim to - although saying that they did try to lay claim to invention several standard DSL technologies.
ASSIA have a very good marketing dept. Marketing Depts are well versed at hype. But no they didnt invent vectoring and I doubt BT would touch ASSIA with a barge pole.
No-one knows yet how BT are doing it, but I should imagine they are using their own system.. which will very likely something be involving the profiles on the 'Yukon system' which we heard about for the first time from the patent court cases. BT seem to be keeping tight lipped on Yukon, but from descriptions it could possibly the software program which will control & hold the fttc profile tables and allow configuration changes to profiles.. such as those that will be needed for vdsl and vectoring.
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nothing to do with shills and stooges.
Some of the media reports are grossly biased towards BT; a promise of extra advertising spend ensuring perhaps some very flattering press coverage?! :blush:
It seems that BT, via its "arms-length" PR teams, is working the broadband forums incognito; briefing journalists "off-the-record" over this scandal; and weaving in favourable copy to those "independent" media reports.
This article from Mark Jackson of ISPReview introduces a number of unattributable claims about BT's DLM software. [1]
(https://forum.kitz.co.uk/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FedZXVIT.jpg&hash=f9b10627659ced2185828fabf2116a483369789d)
Importantly, Jackson states that it "appears" the plug was pulled on the infringing DLM System at 6am on Friday 21 November.
Come on Mark, the DLM System either was turned off at 6am, or it wasn't!
Jackson disguises his source, but we can suppose that it was BT itself. Who else would have the exact details of that alleged DLM turn-off, except for BT? Who else, but BT, could provide such precision to the timing ("6am Fri 21 Nov")?
But why didn't BT issue its own press release to that effect? Maybe because the report of the turn-off wasn't strictly true? And, as every propagandist can vouch, it's never good PR to be found out fibbing.
From scouring the end-user reports on this and other forums, it's clear that even after that 6am deadline, BT was and, it seems, still is, operating an automatic mechanism to "adaptively modify the line profiles" of its NGA end-users; that mechanism being the key function of the infringing DLM system.
And there's yet another curiosity in that report from Jackson; to be found in the comments section beneath the main body of his report.
Just hunch here, but this exchange between a reader called "Dick" and Jackson feels very contrived. Like something out of a promotional FAQ. Where a company poses as its own customers, answering its own softball questions, to promote itself! :blush:
(https://forum.kitz.co.uk/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FY9CCTAN.jpg&hash=6acb271df0e85be4574e86ce586567a8c241ad45)
Sorry Dick but you flunk the basic scratch-and-sniff test! Helpfully putting a distractionary spin on it all, Dick encourages us to forget the patent scandal, and rally instead behind BT and its long-awaited vectoring roll-out! Whoopee-doo!
And that's not even touching upon the BTCare forums; where the commentary is about as trite as it could possibly get! I love the bloke who feigns idiocy in his written English, and "simulates rather too obviously the workmanship of an illiterate person" (to quote the Gunpowder Plot!). Yet punctuates his nonsense with a very clear, insider knowledge of BT's VDSL2 offering!
Hmm.. Like all corporate monsters, BT fights very dirty, especially with the media in its pocket!
[1] http://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.php/2014/11/uk-court-appeal-rules-bt-fttc-broadband-infringes-assia-patents.html
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Care to provide a link to "the bloke who feigns idiocy in his written English, and "simulates rather too obviously the workmanship of an illiterate person" please?
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Aww, let that be left as an exercise to the reader :-X
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Good Grief. :shrug2:
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Care to provide a link to "the bloke who feigns idiocy in his written English, and "simulates rather too obviously the workmanship of an illiterate person" please?
Im not sure - perhaps he means Valthos
https://community.bt.com/t5/BT-Infinity-Speed-Connection/Court-case-forces-Openreach-to-turn-off-Dynamic-Line-Management/m-p/1417100/highlight/true#M157374
.. and if so...
"simulates rather too obviously the workmanship of an illiterate person" (to quote the Gunpowder Plot!). Yet punctuates his nonsense with a very clear, insider knowledge of BT's VDSL2 offering!
thats rubbish, because the guy hasnt got a clue.
if you get CRCs more than 10 per day you going interleave..
he probably picked that up from an overheard conversation with an OR engineer in the pub. Thats not insider information ???
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"Like all corporate monsters, BT fights very dirty, especially with the media in its pocket!"
I've never quite seen it as BT having the reporting media on their side ?? If anything, they generally come under micro-scrutiny looking for ways to sensationalise a story to their detriment.
It's well-known by now that the patent was infringed, but like all technologies it was from what I read, infringed in a way that would benefit the EU ? Of course, I completely understand ASSIA wanting to protect their asset and taking the actions they did. But the rest of your post, Pedro, is pure conspiracist theories imho.
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Although I'm not a great fan of BT, in this example I tend to side with them.
Such a software patent would probably not have been granted in the UK.
So what we have here is a patent troll trying to strong arm BT.
Not greatly different to say someone cybersquatting a domain name and then trying to force a big company to pay out millions to buy it.
Notice how ASSIA post DLM switch off suddenly changed tack and came out with how BT turning the DLM off is going to significantly disadvantage customers.
Clearly they thought that BT would pay up.
Instead they have miscalculated and BT have found it cheaper to develop their own version or sufficiently modify the existing one so as not to infringe the patent.
So ASSIA will be left with sweet FA.
Furthermore if BT really developed their system they might market it to ASSIA's existing customers
Which might put ASSIA up sheet creek with no paddle.
This is all international negotiating.
Someone with something everyone wants can charge what they like until a point comes when the rest have had enough of being price gouged and start developing their own system.
Once BT has got some negotiating power (by having a working system) BT will go back to ASSIA and offer them a few pence royalties for their continuing use of it.
After that who knows what will be the outcome.
I tend to the view that the end result will be BT will develop their own and ASSIA will be told to take a running jump...
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Knowing my luck they'll have disabled it just as I'm waiting for it to put me back up to my original (minus crosstalk) sync after a line fault ::)
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what we have here is a patent troll trying to strong arm BT.
Four British judges sitting in the UK's High Court and Court of Appeal have all ruled in favour of ASSIA, in four separate judgments to date.
Likewise in four opposition proceedings brought before the European Patent Office; patent examiners there too have rejected BT's arguments. ASSIA's patents for its DLM inventions are valid and BT is infringing them. Case closed.
At some point BT has got to stop digging, hold its hands up, utter those magic words (mea culpa) and cough up.
But, as we can see, BT (via its shills and stooges) would prefer, still, to argue otherwise!
It's also a bit low to slight Professor John Cioffi and associates as patent trolls. They hold over 400 patents in the field of DSL. Cioffi personally filed 105 of them. [1]
Reasonably enough, Cioffi & Co called The Register to task for just this: accusing them of being patent trolls; The Register has since acknowledged that it was wrong and retracted its slur. [2]
Cioffi is recognised as one of the Fathers of DSL; all serious literature on DSL acknowledges his place in history. Without Cioffi and his company ASSIA Inc., we would still be communicating with acoustic couplers, bean cans, damp string, and such like. In fact, with BT's decrepit and under-invested network, it often seems like we still are! :blush:
Notice how ASSIA post DLM switch off suddenly changed tack and came out with how BT turning the DLM off is going to significantly disadvantage customers. Clearly they thought that BT would pay up.
According to the High Court judgment, it is, in fact, the other way. (see para.15 of [3] )
It was BT, and not ASSIA, arguing that millions of customers would be affected if it was held to infringe (which it was):
This, from the Dec 2013 approved judgment of Mr Justice Birss:
At one point in the argument BT's counsel were anxious to point out that if BT is held to infringe, this may have an impact on all the home broadband connections provided by BT across the whole country.
So that was BT's puerile argument: "we're too grand to be held to account".
And isn't it interesting that BT's counsel cautioned that *all* of its home broadband connections (VDSL and ADSL) may be impacted by an injunction? What ever is BT admitting? That its 20CN and 21CN DLM Systems (for ADSL) are infringing too?!
ASSIA will be left with sweet FA...
Unsurprisingly, that's not a view shared by ASSIA. Dave Burstein, one of its advisors, said "the potential royalties ASSIA may win are substantial"; he compared it to the TI vs Conexant patent case which resulted in a $70 million award to the claimant (TI).
It is surprising to see BT getting busted here, and on British soil. In previous altercations with the UK courts, it has managed to curry favour in the right places, to see off legal actions for obvious wrongdoing; e.g. over its involvement in unlawful espionage in the Phorm scandal, and in the earlier Crabtree Ruling from 1997. [4]
What does this all mean for the consumer though? Many FTTC subscribers are reporting that with no DLM, they're finding their lines are stuck on highly capped profiles with heavy interleaving. Not fit for purpose then; not as described. Consumer compensation on the cards? Let's hope so.
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[1] http://web.stanford.edu/group/cioffi/doc/cioffi-patent-list.pdf
[2] http://www.theregister.co.uk/2014/11/26/bt_starts_shutting_pulling_patentinfringing_boxes_from_dsl_network/ (see the "bootnote")
[3] http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/Patents/2013/3768.html
[4] http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/news/8438461/BT-and-Phorm-how-an-online-privacy-scandal-unfolded.html
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I have refrained from commenting on this so far however I will now in particular about software patents.
Whatever the actual outcome of this case I do believe that in principle software patents are very hard to justify, basically you are attempting to patent a string of zeros and ones in a particular order which to my view is ridiculous. I have never thought they were a good idea and are a charter for money making no more or less, however we are where we are.
BT are perfectly within their rights to attempt to prove they should not be held liable and they lost, so they have taken a decision which again they are perfectly entitled to do. Assia do not have a god given right to expect BT or any other company to roll over and pay them royalties. Whether BT's decision will be right or not in the long term remains to be seen, yes it may impact users or BT may have already decided internally how to proceed and we may well see something much sooner come out to replace the code which part of this case. I do expect internally BT were already preparing to manage this in case they lost - at least I would expect an competent organisation to do this. Patent disputes can be a minefield and it can be very hard to predict the outcome so you have to be prepared for it to go either way.
There is no point in criticising either company here, it is business and it's cut-throat.
Stuart
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I do expect internally BT were already preparing to manage this in case they lost - at least I would expect an competent organisation to do this. Patent disputes can be a minefield and it can be very hard to predict the outcome so you have to be prepared for it to go either way.
I can categorically state that this was/is the case, Stuart. As you allude to, it would have been sheer madness to have adopted a stance of, 'We will win'.
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well my interleaving came down at 4.30am this morning, 16ms to 8ms , so something still working.
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BT had an entire year to prepare for worst case scenario so my guess is they will be rolling out a new system over the coming weeks if not already.
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But, as we can see, BT (via its shills and stooges) would prefer, still, to argue otherwise!
You cannot call people shills and stooges just because they do not hold the same opinion as you. This isnt a conspiracy theory forum.
You have had your say and its abundantly clear which side of the fence you are on, but others have the right to put their thoughts forward too without being labelled a shill. Nor does the fact that if someone doesnt agree with your option mean that they are in the pockets of BT.
There's nothing sinister just because someone posts will it affect the roll out of vectoring. Vectoring cant come soon enough for many of us, so anything that may hold up the roll out is a valid question and not a diversion tactic.
Personally I think the whole thing is a farce and without doubt ASSIA have tried to claim patent rights for already known technologies and for that even had a full patent withdrawn. That is why some people are forming the opinion that they have. Its already been stated that the UK does not allow software patents. I had been trying to read the whole case earlier and they are arguing over bits of code (not full copyright) and TBH it could have gone either one way or the other.
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BT had an entire year to prepare for worst case scenario so my guess is they will be rolling out a new system over the coming weeks if not already.
Yep. I think they already have something in progress. We've seen some odd changes over the past week. NS was the first to spot a line on MDWS that should have been Interleaved from the 21st which wasn't, so they turned something off. -link (http://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php?topic=14598.msg275006#msg275006), but we also had some lines which were seeing normal DLM activity. Then a few days ago Interleaving was applied to some lines when it shouldn't have been, and then promptly corrected the next day. They are definitely tweaking.
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Ummmmmm - not sure what ASSIA are playing at.
http://stakeholders.ofcom.org.uk/binaries/consultations/llu-wlr-cc-13/responses/Adaptive_Spectrum_and_Signal_Alignment_Inc.pdf
Trying to make OFCOM make BT use ASSIA's DLM because
BT Openreach has historically used proprietary solutions for DSL management,the
performance of which may be substantially below industry norms;
yet in the next breath they claim dominance in DLM, then say that its unfair that BT should have a dominant position in the UK market for provision of DSL. ???
In addition, ASSIA has significant concerns about the effect on potential competition
of a regulatory regime that fails to give BT the incentive to employ best-in-class
management practices and to create appropriate open management interfaces
. Inshort, other operators will be forced to use BT Openreach’s own DSL management
technology for the NGA network (in the same way as has already happened forcurrent ADSL services). This ‘vanilla
-only’ approach to DSL management will discourage operators from developing innovative services for their customers (and
indeed may prevent some services from being offered at all) and will weaken the
competitive spur to BT itself to offer the seservices.
Also... Whats this letter to NICC about ?
http://www.niccstandards.org.uk/governance/ASSIA%20IPR%20Disclosure%20NICC%20Study%20303.pdf?type=pdf
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BT had an entire year to prepare for worst case scenario so my guess is they will be rolling out a new system over the coming weeks if not already.
Not just one year to prepare, but over three! From ASSIA serving legal notice in Nov 2011, BT has had over three years to either remove or license the infringing components from its FTTC DLM System.
Yet instead of doing the honourable thing for all stakeholders concerned -- subscribers, shareholders, patent holders, and so on -- BT figured it could bluff its way out of it in the British courts.
That legal strategy has back-fired spectacularly.
It's also extraordinarily inept to allow it to get to an injunctive stage with no proper contingency plan in place. BT could, and doubtless should, have either licensed the infringing components, or else replaced them altogether, some two or even three years ago. That it chose to do neither, doesn't say much about the current management of the corporation. Ultimately, the subscriber is being punished for BT's incompetence and arrogance.
I doubt BT would touch ASSIA with a barge pole.
Maybe it's the other way around? Why would ASSIA want a relationship with BT over its vectoring technologies, when it's been pilfering its earlier inventions? A salutary lesson there, perhaps, for all companies doing business with BT. Especially for those companies without the financial resources or legal expertise to safeguard their intellectual property in a court of law, against the rapacious grasp of one of the largest telcos in the world.
By contrast, BT can draw on almost limitless funds to drag out any litigation. That was perhaps why BT was refused leave to appeal.
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ASSIA's submission to Ofcom sounds eminently reasonable. There's nothing overtly offensive in it, at least not to most of us outside the BT Group.
It lays out a set of proposals which are framed on the grounds of encouraging competition. Ultimately to improve the technologies of DLM systems used by BT (and others).
ASSIA is calling for:
* the development and use of open standards in the DLM/DSM interfaces available to other operators and re-sellers. Those open standards being equally open to all developers of DLM Systems, not just ASSIA.
* BT to "unbundle" its DSL management services to encourage competition.
* BT to introduce through open DLM/DSM interfaces the ability for resellers to "meaningfully control the physical layer properties of wholesale services"; it's a huge matter of concern that only BT Openreach can currently access the DLM system.
* BT to separately account for the cost of development / maintenance of DLM Systems; to ensure there's no cross-subsidizing across the BT Group, that could harm competitors
We shouldn't lose sight of the fact, as ASSIA quite rightly points out, that through the introduction of FTTC, several decades of improvement in internet access competition have been reversed. ADSL LLU had previously worked quite well, stimulating competition, which resulted in considerably better internet services for many end-users. However, through FTTC, BT has regained its old stranglehold on the internet access market in the UK; today, owning almost all FTTC subscriber lines in the country. That's really no good for competition. So that's the backdrop. Again, I'm with ASSIA on this!
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I think we're diversifying from the point-at-hand slightly. The crux of the matter is that BT were found culpable of patent infringement. They had their day in Court and lost. Not through arrogance, but through their right to defend themselves.
Far from being all smug about the possible outcome, they did have contingency plans put in place. Through our confidential commercial interest policy, I am unable to reference what that was, but I'm sure it's guessable ? ;)
I'm afraid you paint ASSIA as this knight in shining armour, wanting what's best for the EU, opening up opportunities for the ISP's to individually go tinkering with DLM (NOT a good thing), encouraging competition. Another contributor (Broadstairs I think ?) has already pointed out ................. this is big business, cut-throat indeed. ASSIA want what's best for ASSIA, not the EU.
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Something is still doing something, somewhere... my IP profile went up from 35.8 to 37.2 yesterday :o
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Something is still doing something, somewhere... my IP profile went up from 35.8 to 37.2 yesterday :o
DLM is working, or appears to be, possibly now under the changes needed to be done by BT. See my post at http://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php?topic=14598.msg275728#msg275728.
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I hope they take BT to court every week, it's doing wonders for my share values. ;) ;D ;D
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I hope they take BT to court every week, it's doing wonders for my share values. ;) ;D ;D
Don't mind the rest of us. :(
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Something is still doing something, somewhere... my IP profile went up from 35.8 to 37.2 yesterday :o
DLM is working, or appears to be, possibly now under the changes needed to be done by BT. See my post at http://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php?topic=14598.msg275728#msg275728.
Interesting thanks :)
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I hope they take BT to court every week, it's doing wonders for my share values. ;) ;D ;D
Don't mind the rest of us. :(
Ha ha ...... don't worry, Simon .......... I shan't.