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Author Topic: Weird Infinity Issue - possible HR fault?  (Read 31246 times)

samwise78

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Re: Weird Infinity Issue - possible HR fault?
« Reply #90 on: August 09, 2016, 07:37:50 PM »

It is an issue that I'm hoping can be sorted on Thursday
Noticed my attenuation has also increased now from 16.6 to 19.2 as of around midday
Something not quite right!
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samwise78

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Re: Weird Infinity Issue - possible HR fault?
« Reply #91 on: August 12, 2016, 06:49:06 PM »

Quick update following the Openreach visit yesterday..

They couldn't find any fault while at my property, reported PQT was good and passed all tests they ran on JDSU "really clean D side" apparently.
Mooched off down to the cab - on return advised me they couldn't get the full 80/20 at the cab which is a bit of an odd one - I'd expect them to get full sync?
Dismissed my suggestion it could be a bridge tap based on the dip on hlog, didn't push any further as they weren't the most receptive..

Also asked me what interleaving was, as they rang the DCoE for a DLM reset and were advised the diminishin sync speed was due to interleaving..  ???
When I queried them not being able to get full sync at the cab, suggestion was I should ask the CP to upgrade the line plant for more speed.

I know the BTw ADSL checker is theoretical - but it does state two ranges 1 x clean and 1 x impacted..
My range for clean is 80 - 64.8 and impacted is 65.5 - 35
If my D side cable is as good as OR are implying, shouldn't my sync be in the clean range?
I offered the possibility of my reduced sync being down to more subscribers at the cabinet but this was also dismissed by the engineer.

For more giggles I jumped on Live Chat with BT afterwards and relayed the suggestion from OR that the CP can pay for an upgrade to the line plant - and apparently I now have a boost engineer appointment for the 17th. I won't hold my breath - just hope it's not the same chap who came yesterday..

Wondering if it's really worth the effort, logically given the contradictory nature of the fault I want to get to the bottom of it.
Will switch on stats again later when I get home from work, laptop is currently sleeping away from my toddler's inquisitive grubby mitts

Cheers
Samwise
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WWWombat

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Re: Weird Infinity Issue - possible HR fault?
« Reply #92 on: August 13, 2016, 02:21:55 PM »

They couldn't find any fault while at my property, reported PQT was good and passed all tests they ran on JDSU "really clean D side" apparently.
Mooched off down to the cab - on return advised me they couldn't get the full 80/20 at the cab which is a bit of an odd one - I'd expect them to get full sync?

I'd expect that too. Some people on here have had cases of a faulty port on the DSLAM, and have needed to be shifted to a new port. I don't know if that applies to you though.

Dismissed my suggestion it could be a bridge tap based on the dip on hlog, didn't push any further as they weren't the most receptive..

Shame. It would have been interesting to see if his JDSU detected the same thing.

Also asked me what interleaving was, as they rang the DCoE for a DLM reset and were advised the diminishin sync speed was due to interleaving..  ???

Interesting. From MDWS, it looks like you originally had G.INP activated (INP=48) - aka retransmission - which comes with a small amount of interleaving. In your case this was a depth of 16. In general, G.INP is the best way for a line to be set up, and doesn't come with any particular reduction in speeds.

Your line stayed like that until 16:28 on the 11th August, when logging stopped briefly. Logging started up again at 16:49, but your line had, by then, put full interleaving in place (INP=3, interleaving depth=981). This might have been due to a DLM intervention (because of multiple resyncs, perhaps), and might have been due to a DLM reset (some types of reset cause this level of interleaving to be the norm, at least for the first 48 hours). However, in your case, this interleaving only stayed in place until 16:55, when logging stopped again.

Logging then started up again at 17:09, but this time it was without interleaving of either kind (so no G.INP retransmission either). Some types of DLM reset do this (and is what all DLM resets used to be until relatively recently).

Do you know if they did two resets? I'm wondering if all their investigations caused a DLM intervention to add interleaving, which the DCoE saw 5 minutes later as "reduced speed caused by interleaving", and they then did a reset.

Having said all of that (related to interleaving), it looks more like your line was actually banded, and had an artificial speed cap of 49/15 set on it by DLM. This will have been set try to keep it stable in the face of errors or resyncs.

The first DLM reset or intervention (that put full interleaving in place, alongside a hefty amount of FEC protection) looks to have removed the banding restriction, and allowed your sync to increase to 50.1/20; here, the speeds will indeed have been reduced because of the FEC protection that sits alongside the interleaving.

The second DLM reset (that took away all interleaving and retransmission) looks to have kept the banding restriction away too, and allowed your sync to increase to 53.8/20.

Because the first "DLM event" took away banding, rather than merely adding interleaving, I'd say it was actually most likely to have been a deliberate reset by DCoE rather than an automatic DLM intervention.

I know the BTw ADSL checker is theoretical - but it does state two ranges 1 x clean and 1 x impacted..
My range for clean is 80 - 64.8 and impacted is 65.5 - 35
If my D side cable is as good as OR are implying, shouldn't my sync be in the clean range?

The speeds used in both the clean and impacted estimates come from the 80th and 20th percentiles ... which means *most* lines that have similar properties (60% of them) fall within the estimates. 20% get a higher speed, and 20% get a lower speed.

If an engineer has attended, and given your line a clean bill of health, then you should indeed have a line that can be classified as "clean", and should indeed be able to compare your speed to the "clean" estimates. It doesn't mean that, automatically, you must be one of the 60% though.

It is worrying, though, that your line continues to exhibit the signs of the bridge tap (from the Hlog graph). The knock-on consequence (in the bits/tone graph) shows you are likely to be missing a chunk of speed ... but perhaps not enough to give you a huge boost - I'd estimate around another 5Mbps.

Note: From JDSU documents, this bridge tap is likely to 4 - 4.5m long.

I offered the possibility of my reduced sync being down to more subscribers at the cabinet but this was also dismissed by the engineer.

They're likely to know just how many subscribers are using the DSLAM, but it is hard to judge how many are affecting your line.

For more giggles I jumped on Live Chat with BT afterwards and relayed the suggestion from OR that the CP can pay for an upgrade to the line plant - and apparently I now have a boost engineer appointment for the 17th. I won't hold my breath - just hope it's not the same chap who came yesterday..

Wondering if it's really worth the effort, logically given the contradictory nature of the fault I want to get to the bottom of it.

Others can advise on that better.

However, it is noticeable that your rate of errors increased as of 9pm yesterday and further as of 7am this morning. As of 8:45 (when logging stopped), the Errored Second counter had reached high enough to ensure that DLM will intervene shortly. Whether it will add banding, interleaving, or G.INP is unknown.

Something is definitely getting errors onto the line ... but whether a boost engineer could fix it, I dunno.
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Black Sheep

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Re: Weird Infinity Issue - possible HR fault?
« Reply #93 on: August 13, 2016, 02:26:21 PM »

They would NOT get a better speed at the Cab because your circuit is 'Banded'. Only if it was on 'Open profile' would the speed differ over distance.

There's only two places a 'Bridged Tap' can be (99.9% of the time) ........... the Cab or more usually, the house.
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WWWombat

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Re: Weird Infinity Issue - possible HR fault?
« Reply #94 on: August 13, 2016, 02:39:19 PM »

They would NOT get a better speed at the Cab because your circuit is 'Banded'. Only if it was on 'Open profile' would the speed differ over distance.

Doh - of course. Should have been obvious once I realised it was banded.

So banding actually makes an engineer's life harder when investigating faults. Another reason why it should be rare...
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samwise78

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Re: Weird Infinity Issue - possible HR fault?
« Reply #95 on: August 13, 2016, 03:10:49 PM »

The gap in logging is because I have stats running on a laptop that frequently needs closing due to prying toddler am in the process of moving the install to an always on machine away from his grubby mitts..
Yes there did seem to be 2 resets before it settled down.
The Openreach guys seemed confused that they didn't get a full 80/20 at the cab, can't offer more than that.
I had a boost visit last year and was moved onto a different port then - the boost guy at the time got 80/20 on his JDSU while at my house I recall but for whatever reason when he plugged me back in the Hub didn't sync above 60 (before I used a HG612 that was)
I mentioned crosstalk from other subs as whenever there's a power cut I seem to resync quicker than those around me as my attainable shoots right up (this can be seen 5 days ago on MDWS)
At work now so will review rest of the points and comment further..
Thanks for the input it's good to get a more informed view!

Cheers
Samwise

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

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Black Sheep

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Re: Weird Infinity Issue - possible HR fault?
« Reply #96 on: August 13, 2016, 03:35:18 PM »

Doh - of course. Should have been obvious once I realised it was banded.

So banding actually makes an engineer's life harder when investigating faults. Another reason why it should be rare...

Hmmm ?? Again, this is question that can not be answered generically. It would depend on the engineers knowledge, and whether he/she applies this knowledge .......... ie: looking at the DLM history which gives lots of info including the current circuit policy .... as in if it is banded or 'open'.  :)

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samwise78

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Re: Weird Infinity Issue - possible HR fault?
« Reply #97 on: August 13, 2016, 03:50:29 PM »

They would NOT get a better speed at the Cab because your circuit is 'Banded'. Only if it was on 'Open profile' would the speed differ over distance.

They reported being unable to get full sync at the cab after the DLM reset had completed, and suggested I should raise it to the CP to "upgrade the lineplant" - but then in the same sentence told me my d-side was perfect..

Having said all of that (related to interleaving), it looks more like your line was actually banded, and had an artificial speed cap of 49/15 set on it by DLM. This will have been set try to keep it stable in the face of errors or resyncs.

Yep - I concluded I had been banded by DLM after foolishly trying out a new BT Smart Hub - which flapped like a pigeon in a greenhouse until I removed it a couple of days later and restored my current setup, the banding and the intermittent noise on the line led me to log another fault in the first place which led to the engineer visit..

Something is definitely getting errors onto the line ... but whether a boost engineer could fix it, I dunno.

I don't know where the errors are coming from, the phone line sounds fine now and was perfect while Openreach were in attendance. Before that and probably again - there's some crackling at the beginning of a call which disappears and reappears after a random period of time..
I'm wondering if old and unused external cabling could be having an effect here or if I'm clutching at straws, if it was an issue I'd hope it would have been picked up by any engineer during any of the previous visits over the last 12 months.
I'm beginning to think it could be a combination of crosstalk via increased takeup since my install (I was one of the first on the cab and happily chugging away at 80/20) - and some aluminium in the d-side somewhere.. Could that lead to more errors as speed increases??
Not necessarily bothered about hitting full sync if I'm honest, something still isn't right though and Openreach are struggling to figure out what it is..

Cheers
Sam


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Black Sheep

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Re: Weird Infinity Issue - possible HR fault?
« Reply #98 on: August 13, 2016, 04:03:52 PM »

They reported being unable to get full sync at the cab after the DLM reset had completed, and suggested I should raise it to the CP to "upgrade the lineplant" - but then in the same sentence told me my d-side was perfect..


Then this is a very simple fix ..... it needs a 'Lift & Shift' to remedy the fault.

Now please don't take this the wrong way, but with over 30yrs experience in dealing with the public in Telecoms take it from me, it is very, very easy for the EU to misinterpret what has actually been said. I know from personal experience.

The reason I highlight this is because there is no reason on Earth to "ask the CP to upgrade the lineplant" ...... the CP doesn't own it, Openreach do. Did they actually mean ask the CP for a new DSLAM port ?? I've no idea ?? Either way, IF what is being stated here is the full unadulterated account of what happened ....... then the engineers should have requested a 'Lift & Shift' (a new DSLAM port) whilst at the Cab, IF they couldn't attain full synch on an open profile ??
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samwise78

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Re: Weird Infinity Issue - possible HR fault?
« Reply #99 on: August 13, 2016, 04:28:46 PM »

Now please don't take this the wrong way, but with over 30yrs experience in dealing with the public in Telecoms take it from me, it is very, very easy for the EU to misinterpret what has actually been said. I know from personal experience.

The reason I highlight this is because there is no reason on Earth to "ask the CP to upgrade the lineplant" ...... the CP doesn't own it, Openreach do. Did they actually mean ask the CP for a new DSLAM port ?? I've no idea ?? Either way, IF what is being stated here is the full unadulterated account of what happened ....... then the engineers should have requested a 'Lift & Shift' (a new DSLAM port) whilst at the Cab, IF they couldn't attain full synch on an open profile ??

I won't take it the wrong way!
I'm reasonably up to speed with ownership of the infrastructure and demarc points along the way.
I work for BT (not Openreach) - they knew this too as we were discussing what I do for BT (Cisco network engineer), so I was amazed when they pointed me back to the CP/BT to progress, I was waiting for an "only joking mate" but it never came..
They mentioned a lift & shift / possible faulty port before heading down to the cab, but no mention of it again on their return - I'm a listener and let people work a fault onsite, it was their last job of the day so maybe they didn't fancy the work to fix? I don't know..

Don't think I'm missing anything out, I didn't record the conversation (!) but managed to get the job notes for the visit from a helpful live chat agent later that day, I'll post them later when I get home if it helps and happy to answer any questions if there's anything missing from my recollection so far..
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Black Sheep

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Re: Weird Infinity Issue - possible HR fault?
« Reply #100 on: August 13, 2016, 04:38:16 PM »

Yeah ..... the job notes would be a great help, cheers.
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Chrysalis

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Re: Weird Infinity Issue - possible HR fault?
« Reply #101 on: August 13, 2016, 06:28:33 PM »

Doh - of course. Should have been obvious once I realised it was banded.

So banding actually makes an engineer's life harder when investigating faults. Another reason why it should be rare...

A engineer with intuition would do a DLM reset "before" diagnosis, as DLM will not paint a true picture of the state of a line.

Of course this conflicts with what BS told us where engineers have been advised to only do a reset when a fault is fixed, but my install engineer told me he does reset on all lines he has a fault reported for.
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Black Sheep

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Re: Weird Infinity Issue - possible HR fault?
« Reply #102 on: August 13, 2016, 06:45:47 PM »

This is where knowledge and experience count. Viewing WHOOSH (DSL data), checking out previous reports (if any), knowing the locality (cable make-up, previous REIN issues) is the fault an ELF (Early Life Failure), listening to what the EU is complaining of (sometimes it's just the wi-fi, not the connection they have trouble with) ….. etc …… all go into determining if I would perform a DLM reset before faulting.

There is NO hard and fast rule I abide by, but the reasoning behind the decision NOT to perform a reset willy nilly is there to prove to the EU a fault has been found. On EVERY task, we are expected to visit the EU's premises first and demonstrate the connection speed etc on the HHT. Then, if we find a fault like a bridged-tap or an unfiltered device etc …… by correcting the fault and performing a reset, we have proven to the EU an issue has been resolved.

There are a lot of dis-believing people out there, Chrysalis.
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Weaver

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Re: Weird Infinity Issue - possible HR fault?
« Reply #103 on: August 13, 2016, 06:55:07 PM »

@Blacksheep - Clarification, sorry if I'm being thick. Is it the case that if you were to do a DLM reset first off, before actually investigating and making necessary changes, then it might misleadingly make it look to the user as if you'd fixed things even though you haven't really addressed the real cause of the problem? (Because doing a DLM reset might instantly improve the apparent performance stats, although the good stats wouldn't last long.)
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Black Sheep

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Re: Weird Infinity Issue - possible HR fault?
« Reply #104 on: August 13, 2016, 06:58:27 PM »

You need to read here, Weaver …….. http://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php/topic,18273.0.html

Right, I'm off out for a meal and copious amounts of ale,  with t'wife and friends.  :) :) :)
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