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Author Topic: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.  (Read 266055 times)

Chrysalis

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Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
« Reply #540 on: June 13, 2015, 12:45:16 PM »

its funny isnt it that the apparent reason for not releasing the information is we all get confused yet the isp staff themselves get confused as they ill trained.
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kitz

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Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
« Reply #541 on: June 13, 2015, 01:25:24 PM »

Kerching. :idea:

Oh My Gawd - I get what they have done.  The fix is so simple, its elegant and its what they should have done in the first place!   The big mistake they made was not testing with ECI's & HH5A's on the Huawei cabs which were set to auto-apply re-tx by default.  If they tested properly they would immediately have spotted it.

Quote
release the information you have to see if the community can put the pieces together

It will take me ages to type it all out..  but yes I will do something.  I think a post/page to explain, with all the info together would be best for easy reference as this thread itself has now got long winded.  I have a lot of confidence that this should also work with the ECI cabs too.   The crux is using the profile Error Protection OFF.. as error protection can be INP or G.INP - note above how I said default for existing (pre g.inp) upstream is the same? 

Thats what theyve done - simply implemented a hybrid profile system for the retx which by default uses Error Protection (INP or G.INP depending on which DSLAM type)   Theres a lot more to it than that, but I will explain more when I get time but think of it this way in the simplist form that both G.INP and INP adjust the same 2 parameters, just one does it on the fly, the other is permanent. I'd also if possible like to see if I get a reply to my further questions -  I got an email last week to say he'd been on holiday & Ive not been forgotten and he will respond.   I will chase that again, because now some of the things I asked we are aware of anyhow, but it would be nice if we can get some more info.

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tommy45

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Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
« Reply #542 on: June 13, 2015, 01:50:12 PM »

kitz yeah I have been telling andyh its false on the forums, but noone is backing me up overthere, so I just look like a raving lunatic :)

When I posted about him here, sorry if I didnt make it clear, but I did not post it as a fact, rather just as his (and openreach's claim?).  I defenitly disagree with what he said, and his affiliation with the BT group seems a bit more clear now as when I suggested to him to use his high level access to tell them they wrong he did a blunt corporate reply to tell people to report via the usual channels which we all know is useless.

I cant say everything I know regarding ofcom sadly but what I can say is ofcom are not happy currently about whats happening with the retail side of the market, they not happy about not a single isp passing on the wholesale changes of 1 month min terms for FTTC (hence the new changes regarding poor performance) and they also not happy with the current DLM situation where not a single isp even aaisp is passing on information.  Instead customers are spending their own money to buy new compatible modems, which believe me ofcom has not taken lightly.

Ofcom unfortunately are all bark,how often have they fined an ISP for breeching the MAC code rules?

If ofcom where that interested in us the EU's  then it would of made ISP's pass on the 1mths min term for FTTC migrations and the lower migration activation fee's  but it didn't, So pointless to the EU  as it has only benefited the ISP's
Also why hasn't it stepped in and stopped the likes of BT retail jacking up line rental when the wholesale costs have decreased ? IMO ofcom are useless, and the SP's and ISP's know it The only way ISP's andSP's will pass on the savings to EU's is if ofcom legislate and make it mandatory that savings are passed on , but imo that is very unlikely
« Last Edit: June 13, 2015, 01:54:41 PM by tommy45 »
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Chrysalis

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Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
« Reply #543 on: June 13, 2015, 02:45:08 PM »

Ofcom have now admitted they were taking the wrong approach tommy, before (and to be fair it did work early on to a degree) they were regulating only wholesale with the assumption retail would take care of itself, however clearly thats all gone astray now.
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tommy45

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Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
« Reply #544 on: June 13, 2015, 02:58:56 PM »

Ofcom have now admitted they were taking the wrong approach tommy, before (and to be fair it did work early on to a degree) they were regulating only wholesale with the assumption retail would take care of itself, however clearly that's all gone astray now.
Well it isn't surprising IMO that the ISP's SP's haven't been passing on these savings, in particular the biggest providers, i find it hard to except that ofcom really believed that isp's would  pass on the savings/changes made at the wholesale level, i didn't think they where so naive
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Chrysalis

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Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
« Reply #545 on: June 13, 2015, 04:35:20 PM »

looks like the mods at plusnet got sick of warning me, instead they just deleted my post silently.

http://community.plus.net/forum/index.php/topic,138084.msg1238310/topicseen.html#new

Will keep an eye out to see if kitz post stays intact.

My post was similar to deathtrap's I just said we know he doesnt care and kitz was posting the correct facts.
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tommy45

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Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
« Reply #546 on: June 13, 2015, 05:12:51 PM »

looks like the mods at plusnet got sick of warning me, instead they just deleted my post silently.

http://community.plus.net/forum/index.php/topic,138084.msg1238310/topicseen.html#new

Will keep an eye out to see if kitz post stays intact.

My post was similar to deathtrap's I just said we know he doesnt care and kitz was posting the correct facts.
noticed that it had mysteriously disappeared So much for freedom of speech or opinions, their silly rules about quotes  are a pain, i even had one of my posts edited by their mods and had not posted the wholes quote, i don't think they all can read properly they are certainly bias towards some people
« Last Edit: June 13, 2015, 05:14:55 PM by tommy45 »
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lf2k

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Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
« Reply #547 on: June 13, 2015, 05:22:43 PM »

OK, so I'll be honest I've just reading the various things here and on PN regarding this - an "interesting" exchange of information/ideas to say the least... ;)

So that I understand what's going on...

There are a variety of different profile options:
Error Protection Off > Retransmission Low > Retransmission High > Interleaving Low > Interleaving High

These are supposedly rolled out to all Huawei cabinets, but not all Huawei cabs are G.INP enabled - in this situation Error Protection Off is the equivalent of FastPath.  When retransmission is enabled on the cabinet, interleaving would be applied sparingly [not at all?].

Error Correction (FEC/HEC etc) is about redundant information being encoded (in the same way that FEC works on DVB-S/DVB-T - there's no retransmission involved/required since this can be reconstructed from the redundant data).  The clue here is that the F stands for "Forward".

Error Protection basically means G.INP.

G.INP potentially reduces the need for as much data to be redundant (again, as per symbol rates in DVB-T/DVB-S) by effectively increasing the symbol rate but allowing for retransmission when needed.  Where people have moved from interleaving to G.INP they've "reclaimed" bandwidth that was previously used for Error Correction.

Looking at MDWS, we see people who have G.INP, people who are interleaved and people on Fastpath.

The important numbers involved are the amount of "INP" on each line.  If this is combined with "Delay" you're on an interleaved line, otherwise you're G.INP'd (INP == 0 = fastpath).

No one seems to know what constitutes Retransmission Low vs Retransmission High - presumably this is related to the Interleaving Depth?  No-one on MDWS seems to have an interleave depth of more than 16 (when G.INP is enabled).

Now most of the above was about Downstream - upstream seems to be a case of Fast Path vs Interleaving, with G.INP being on lines which have not resynced/retrained since the profiles have updated...

ECI cabinets seems to be (still) FastPath vs Interleave - there's no G.INP option.  Likewise with some Huawei cabinets (like mine!).  There doesn't seem to be an ETA, nor obvious pattern on which cabinets are being "upgraded", but there is an assumption that ECI will happen after Huawei.

Am I thinking along the right lines, or have I missed/misunderstood something?



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NewtronStar

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Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
« Reply #548 on: June 13, 2015, 06:00:28 PM »

There doesn't seem to be an ETA, nor obvious pattern on which cabinets are being "upgraded", but there is an assumption that ECI will happen after Huawei.

You can say that again!

On MDWS is not so easy to interpret users G.INP status which have a Huawei Cab unless you have kept a close watch on them over many months.

Take me for example MK1 G.INP was enabled on both my US & DS for less than two months then changed ISP provider while the rollout was halted and G.INP was removed from my line, had I known the outcome i definitely would'nt have moved to another ISP so soon.

And yes Kitizens i'm still smarting as Downstream interleaving depth of 592 sucks as the internet feels suggish without G.INP
« Last Edit: June 13, 2015, 06:02:50 PM by NewtronStar »
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tommy45

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Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
« Reply #549 on: June 13, 2015, 06:02:16 PM »

There does seem to be a difference in the amount of FEC applied to circuits that have G.inp enabled  on the downstream, when compared to those who are on the wide open  fast path profile  this is most likely the underlying reason for the loss of 1-2mbps from the upstream max/Sync rate that some of those who have G.inp on DS only since (BT's botched fix) roll out started,
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Terranova667

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Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
« Reply #550 on: June 13, 2015, 06:09:00 PM »

looks like the mods at plusnet got sick of warning me, instead they just deleted my post silently.

http://community.plus.net/forum/index.php/topic,138084.msg1238310/topicseen.html#new

Will keep an eye out to see if kitz post stays intact.

My post was similar to deathtrap's I just said we know he doesnt care and kitz was posting the correct facts.

hmm i wonder how long my post there will last  ;D   
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Terranova667

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Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
« Reply #551 on: June 13, 2015, 06:16:33 PM »

It's great to see that Kitz may have figured out what the hell is going on with the G.INP mkII etc, It gives us ECI cab users some hope that it may not be a total crap storm when openreach finally get around to the ECI rollout, well one can hope 
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NewtronStar

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Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
« Reply #552 on: June 13, 2015, 07:22:38 PM »

hmm i wonder how long my post there will last  ;D

It's still there @ 19:16 it's a good read and Kitz's post has educated me even more into workings of the MK2 G.INP and that's the main goal on any forums  :)
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Chrysalis

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Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
« Reply #553 on: June 13, 2015, 07:46:30 PM »

newt are you back on g.inp yet or still waiting?
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NewtronStar

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Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
« Reply #554 on: June 13, 2015, 08:35:07 PM »

newt are you back on g.inp yet or still waiting?

 :no: still waiting it took my line 2 months and 19 days to get the MK1 G.INP rollout so i expect to get the MK2 in August, So if you add up both rollouts i have had to wait close to half a year  :o
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