Kitz Forum
Broadband Related => ADSL Issues => Topic started by: Archie on June 07, 2011, 05:14:56 PM
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Hi all,
Firstly, I am new to this forum, so please forgive me if I am doing something incorrectly. ;D
I have found that frequently I get router disconnection with incoming calls. I am connected to the Master socket with BT's Face-plate with built-in filter. No line extensions.
I am also experiencing disconnects at odd times apart from incoming calls. Line tests have have been carried out by BT and my ISP. But, I still feel there is something wrong at the exchange. Frequent disconnectons is bringing the DLM to reduce my up/dpwn speeds.
With a lot of telephony & ADSL expertise within this forum, I thought I may get some expert advice/suggestions to identify the problem. All the help will be appreciated. :) Thanks.
Archie
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On behalf of everyone here, "Welcome, Archie".
Straight down to business. You say you get "router disconnection with incoming calls". Some questions:
(1) Are the disconnections occurring when the 'phone "rings" (it strange how we all still use that description when most 'phones now just make noises like the second floor of Hamley's toy-shop on a free-for-all testing day) or does it occur when you answer the incoming call?
(2) Are the disconnections just a loss of broadband or is it a total loss of sync with the exchange equipment?
(3) Have you tried the most simplest of tests -- remove the (BT provided) filtered face-plate from the NTE5A and connect your telephone & router via a microfilter to the internal test socket?
(4) What is your modem/router?
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Thanks Burakkucat
(1) Are the disconnections occurring when the 'phone "rings" (it strange how we all still use that description when most 'phones now just make noises like the second floor of Hamley's toy-shop on a free-for-all testing day) or does it occur when you answer the incoming call?
Disconnects occur only after I pick up the receiver. I haven't actually tried to see what happens if I do not answer the phone!!!
(2) Are the disconnections just a loss of broadband or is it a total loss of sync with the exchange equipment?
Total loss of sync, I believe, Internet light goes off and then flashing red trying to sync, which takes about a minute or so to re-sync.
(3) Have you tried the most simplest of tests -- remove the (BT provided) filtered face-plate from the NTE5A and connect your telephone & router via a microfilter to the internal test socket?
Yes, through my ISP. Tests also carried out from BT test Socket via microfilter. At that time we did not have problems with interference for over 72 hours. So, filtered faceplate was installed and there were no problems with interference for over 72 hours. However, all of sudden from weekend of 21st May we started to get this issue with incoming calls. Please note that I also had disconnections at odd times - especially when I am not around.
(4) What is your modem/router?
Originally, I had Netgear DG834GT. But, because I was getting more than 6 disconnects, at odd times, in 72 hours, my ISP suggested to try a different router to eliminate the router fault. I had borrowed ActionTec router (new) and currently ActionTec router in connected to the filtered face-plate with phone base unit in phone outlet of the plate. There are no other extension coming off that master socket.
Hope this helps.
Many regards,
Archie
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And to ask the obvious question.....
What happens when you have just a simple plain old corded unpowered phone?
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Hi
quote from weekend of 21st May we started to get this issue with incoming calls.
If you ring out do you get problems or is it consistently when you get incoming call
Regards Jeff
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Disconnects occur only after I pick up the receiver. I haven't actually tried to see what happens if I do not answer the phone!!!
So I'd suggest you make that test. Could you make the arrangement for someone to call you, knowing that you will not be answering the call?
Total loss of sync, I believe, Internet light goes off and then flashing red trying to sync, which takes about a minute or so to re-sync.
Noted.
Tests also carried out from BT test Socket via microfilter. At that time we did not have problems with interference for over 72 hours. So, filtered faceplate was installed and there were no problems with interference for over 72 hours.
By "interference" do you just mean this disconnect issue? Or have you had another problem, previously?
Originally, I had Netgear DG834GT.
Usually reliable.
But, because I was getting more than 6 disconnects, at odd times, in 72 hours, my ISP suggested to try a different router to eliminate the router fault. I had borrowed ActionTec router (new)
A sensible move. An ActionTec modem/router, however, is not something with which I'm familiar.
. . . currently ActionTec router in connected to the filtered face-plate with phone base unit in phone outlet of the plate.
Thinking along the same lines as HPsauce, could you make do with using just the simplest set-up for a few days of testing? Go back to the microfilter connected to the test socket, with the ActionTec modem/router and a wired 'phone connected to the microfilter.
A few more questions, just to get the complete picture.
(5) When a disconnect has occurred upon answering the 'phone, when does the reconnect process start to take place? Almost immediately or only when you finish the telephone call, when the voice loop is cleared down?
(6) Is there any noticeable noise on the line? (The BT quiet test can be invoked by calling 17070, option number 2.)
(7) Who is your ISP and what is your package?
(8 ) Would you please put your telephone number into the SamKnows (http://www.samknows.com/broadband/exchange_search) site and then let us know the URL of the page displayed. That way we can check details of your exchange without you disclosing too much information. ;)
(9) Is it at all possible to obtain any statistics from the ActionTec modem/router?
I am wondering if there is a defective joint (possibly HR ?) somewhere within your local-loop.
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If you ring out do you get problems or is it consistently when you get incoming call
Regards Jeff
Yes, tried it and no effect to ADSL.
Archie.
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And to ask the obvious question.....
What happens when you have just a simple plain old corded unpowered phone?
Yes, tried it but only for an hour. The result was disconnection on receiving incoming call.
Thanks,
Archie
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So I'd suggest you make that test. Could you make the arrangement for someone to call you, knowing that you will not be answering the call?
Yes, will try this soon.
Thinking along the same lines as HPsauce, could you make do with using just the simplest set-up for a few days of testing? Go back to the microfilter connected to the test socket, with the ActionTec modem/router and a wired 'phone connected to the microfilter.
Yes, already tried it but only for an hour because disconnect occured on an incoming call.
(5) When a disconnect has occurred upon answering the 'phone, when does the reconnect process start to take place? Almost immediately or only when you finish the telephone call, when the voice loop is cleared down?
Sorry, not sure. I hadn't thought of it. Sorry. Perhaps, I should keep an eye on this part.
(6) Is there any noticeable noise on the line? (The BT quiet test can be invoked by calling 17070, option number 2.)
Just tried it. Very, very low level; bearing in mind that my hearing is not as sharp as it used to be!!!
(7) Who is your ISP and what is your package?
Plusnet. Value Broadband only.
(8 ) Would you please put your telephone number into the SamKnows site and then let us know the URL of the page displayed. That way we can check details of your exchange without you disclosing too much information.
Yes, glad to: http://www.samknows.com/broadband/exchange/SMBT
(9) Is it at all possible to obtain any statistics from the ActionTec modem/router?
Glad to.
WAN Status
PPP Status
Status: Connected
Authentication Failure: 0
Session Time: 0 days 00:45:00
Packets Sent: 2194
Packets Received: 2248
DSL Status
Connection Status: Showtime
Speed (down/up): 2656/448
Near End CRC Errors (I/F): 0/0
Far End CRC Errors (I/F): 124/0
Near End RS FEC (I/F): 0/0
Far End RS FEC (I/F): 1692/0
SNR Margin (Downstream/Upstream): 13/9
Transmit Power (Downstream/Upstream): 17/12
Attenuation (Downstream/Upstream): 59/63
By the way just had call from BT Openreach (OR). My ISP have arranged for a Boost Engineer to visit the premises. The call was to confirm tomorrow's visit.
Incidentally, when OR called and I answered the call, there was not an immediate disconnection. But disconnection occurred after I had placed the receiver down. Does this mean that I was completely incorrect in saying (earlier) that the diaconnects happened on lifting the receiver :o. I wonder what else do I need to look at again. :(.
Hope the above helps.
Regards,
Archie.
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This sounds very very similar to a problem I had recently. I can't offer a solution beyond the following:
(1) You mention a very low level of noise (despite your hearing difficulties!) during a quiet line test. Any noise may be suggestive of a network fault as far as ADSL connections are concerned.
(2) I too had any number of line tests from both the ISP and BT reporting that there was no fault on the network. But at the end of the day the fault WAS on the BT network.
(3) I do not want to be a gloom merchant but it was only because (by chance) I had a network disconnect from an incoming call whilst the BT Openreach engineer was on site that persuaded him to investigate further. His test kit reported there was no fault whatever on the network (and he showed me the test results) but after what happened he went out and changed the pairs between the premise and the exchange. The problem then disappeared.
I note that you are using a Netgear router. If you have not already done so I stongly recommend that you download RouterStats and start monitoring the line. The BT Openreach engineer I mentioned earlier was additionally persuaded by the evidence provided by RouterStats to continue his investigations despite pressure from his manager. Perhaps the line drops reported by RouterStats persuaded him that I was not dreaming up the whole problem.
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As in all walks of life, there are different skill levels with OR engineers. After making him/her a cup of tea, I would immediately let him know about the disconnections tied in when the phone is used. The likelihood is that those important notes won't be on the jobsheet (laptop).
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Thank you very much for your input, bbnovice. Much appreciated ;D.
Yes, your issue seems very, very similar to what I am experiencing. I already had BT Retail Engineer, as I have BT line. While he was here we had a disconnect and then he tried his own equipement to knock off the connection. He did succeed. His response was that though the line shows to be good, it is ADSL side of things which would need looking at and hence to get BT OR via my ISP to check ADSL side. This is happening tomorrow between 8 am and 1 pm.
It is a little late to carry out the monitoring using RouterStats. However, I will download it for future use. Is it the lite or full version one would need?
Many regards,
Archie
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After making him/her a cup of tea, I would immediately let him know about the disconnections tied in when the phone is used.
I intended to do just that on his/her arrival. I have made a list of calls with area the calls came from and their times and the dates on which the disconnects had happened. This includes the calls from BT retail and OR.
Thanks for your advice. Much appreciated. :)
Regards,
Archie
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Hi
Quote However, I will download it for future use. Is it the lite or full version one would need?
Never too late to start monitoring . Full version is best if your current router is compatible . The GT will happily work on full version.
Regards Jeff
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No worries Archie.
The reason I stress mentioning the dis-cons and the phone, is that sometimes we get to site and it'll be a firend or relative who give us access, not the actual End User. A lot of the time the friend/relative won't be aware of what the problem is, as the End User won't have told them because they think all the relevant information will be passed on to the engineer via their SP. Think again !!!! We are lucky to get a full and proper address and half a circuit routing.
When the above scenario happens, we engineers just get on with testing the circuit, ie) PQT, Eclipse, Synch tests, Error tests, HR's etc etc , and they may well all pass with flying colours. Even the most experienced engineer can sometimes forget to plug the phone in whilst testing, to see if a loss of service occurs when the phone is used. We have quite a lot to remember to meet all types of legal requirements, so it really does help if the EU can add to the mix exactly what happens to the router, and when (if at all possible).
If it's any consolation, this type of fault is brilliant for an engineer to work on, as we can 'see' when the fault is cleared, rather than an 'Intermittent fault' that always works OK when we get to site and we don't have much to go looking for.
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Thanks, Jeffbb. You're right. It's never too late.
Archie.
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Thanks razpag. Much appreciated. :)
Archie
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Thank you for the other information you have provided, Archie. Although I have never been employed by a "network infrastructure provider" ;), I asked for that information so that everything would be available for those suitably qualified. And in my absence, RP has joined this thread. :)
Mr Pag, Would I probably be correct in assuming this issue is most likely to be the result of a corroded / HR joint somewhere between the EU and the exchange?
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Thanks, Burakkucat. I thought you were having a serious contemplation on this issue, hence the delay!! ;)
I await RP's confirmation of your diagnosis.
Regards,
Archie
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Thank you for the other information you have provided, Archie. Although I have never been employed by a "network infrastructure provider" ;), I asked for that information so that everything would be available for those suitably qualified. And in my absence, RP has joined this thread. :)
Mr Pag, Would I probably be correct in assuming this issue is most likely to be the result of a corroded / HR joint somewhere between the EU and the exchange?
Busy as, so very, very, very quick answer. This type of fault is usually a HR (corrosion fault. It can however be down to wrong filtering, SP's exchange equipment and a whole variety of other network type faults, like spilt pairs, in contact with non-workers etc etc etc.
We should have an answer soon from Archie though.
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We should have an answer soon from Archie though.
Archie, When the OR man (or woman) calls, ensure that a mug of tea or coffee, along with biscuits or even a bacon sandwich is offered. Then don't forget to ask for an explanation of the fault (hopefully found & fixed) before he (she) departs.
I know I'm not the only person here with an interest in "cabinets, holes, poles and wires therein / attached thereto". ::)
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Busy as, so very, very, very quick answer. This type of fault is usually a HR (corrosion fault. It can however be down to wrong filtering, SP's exchange equipment and a whole variety of other network type faults, like spilt pairs, in contact with non-workers etc etc etc.
We should have an answer soon from Archie though.
Thanks razpag. Had morning appointment for Boost Engineer. But he was busy elsewhere. So, appointment moved to pm. Arrived quite late. Done exactly as suggested on this forum. A cup of Tea and then explained the types of dropouts I experienced, which he did not have any details of. Also mentioned possible Corroded/HR on the line. :)
Drop occurred, when he was testing, so that goes to prove that I wasn't imagining the fault. Job left as incomplete. He will check out the D side at the cabinet with 63dB load and then he will move on to E side with 63dB load and he will also look at the line-board. He has promised that he will keep me posted and also he suggested that he may have to come back to my master socket.
Oh yes before I forget, he will provide also a new pair of copper from E to D. ;D
So, I will know more tomorrow and I will post the findings here. ;D
Archie
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Archie, When the OR man (or woman) calls, ensure that a mug of tea or coffee, along with biscuits or even a bacon sandwich is offered. Then don't forget to ask for an explanation of the fault (hopefully found & fixed) before he (she) departs.
I know I'm not the only person here with an interest in "cabinets, holes, poles and wires therein / attached thereto". ::)
Thank you burakkucat. I had done exactly what you suggested about Tea & Biscuits. Please check out my response to razpag (Reply #21). ;)
I promise I will keep this forum posted on tomorrow's outcome. ;D
Regards.
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Oh yes before I forget, he will provide also a new pair of copper from E to D. ;D
Taking that exactly as stated, I assume he intends to re-jumper your pair inside the PCP . . . thus ensuring that those four joints are good quality.
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Taking that exactly as stated, I assume he intends to re-jumper your pair inside the PCP . . . thus ensuring that those four joints are good quality.
Sorry about my ignorance, but what does PCP mean?
Regards,
Archie
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Primary Connection Point = those green cabinets at the roadside which connect you to the local exchange.
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Thanks Oranged for clarification.
@ razpag & burakkucat
Okay guys, as promised, here it goes - the Boost Engineer's findings as he continued from where he left off yesterday evening:
1. He tried loading the line from D point to find fault. No joy.
2. He moved on to E point and loaded the line, still no joy - he was looking for errors to identify problem areas - e.g. coroded or HR joints.
3. While he was trying 1. & 2. above, I have had a number of disconnects but this was expected.
4. He checked out the Line Board at E, Still no joy.
5. As he did not find any errors at various points, he decide to leave things alone. So, he has not done any changes to my copper line.
6. As a last resort he checked the crimp joints on incoming line within test socket and carried out some more test at both test socket and master socket with filtered plate. He did not find anything wrong.
Finally, he has left the issue as unresolved and asked me to monitor disconnects for atleast 72 hours and report this to my ISP. His visit report will be sent to my ISP.
What a bummer, eh. :(
Funnily enough I have had couple of incoming calls this morning, but this time NO DISCNNECT. Only disconnects came when he was testing at D and E points. I wonder if he has done something, without realising, and corrected the issue!!
I shall certainly let you know how well the line behaves (or not) over next 72 hours.
Any way, I have managed to get hold of working BT's HomeHUB 2.0, though it will only work with BT ADSL. Apparently I will have to make changes to work with my ISP (or any other ISP). I don't know how to do this. Any ideas, help etc. I understand Homehub 2.0 is more stable on long lines like mine (4.7km from exchange).
Thank you all very much for your positive responses. I do appreciate it.
Many regards,
Archie
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Sorry Guys,
Ooops. I should have mentioned in my last post that I have removed ActionTec router and installed the original Netgear DG834GT router connected via filtered plate which has already been checked out to be good.
Regards,
Archie.
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That is rather disappointing, Archie. :(
In order of appearance:
(1) As Oranged has clarified, a PCP is a Primary Cross-Connection Point (a green roadside cabinet).
(2) The E-side is the pair between the exchange and the PCP.
(3) The D-side is the pair between the PCP and you. (I'm not sure if the D-side is considered to end at the local DP (Distribution Point) and then is known as the drop-wire (if from a pole) or the underground feed (if underground) to the NTE. No doubt either Messrs Pag, Ezzer or his Lordship of Gumble will be able to enhance my knowledge.)
(4) Your Netgear DG834GT should be quite reliable, with the bonus that you can run routerstats and, hopefully, be able to capture graphically a "drop-out". Those statistics would also help your ISP to "see" the issue.
(5) I'm not too sure about using a BT HH2 with a long line. Those "in the know" (myself included) will recommend a BT Business Hub, a.k.a. a 2Wire 2700HG[V]. Walter or Eric would be able to advise you on the best "long line" practices. Is approximately three miles really considered to be a long line? Hmm . . .
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On that last point, I think few people would recommend a BT HH2 on a difficult line. But the Business Hub 2700HGV is often found to be the best performer on long lines (and this one at 59 dB attenuation qualifies as long). But not everyone agrees, and some find that Broadcom- based routers are best, particularly the earlier 6348 chipset, as used in the DG834GT. Whichever is best in your particular circumstances, the DG834GT is a very reliable performer, and I wouldn't look any further until the other issues are resolved.
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Hi Gents,
Thank you very much for your advice/s @ burakkucat & roseway. As the DG834GT is favoured by all concerned, I think I will stick with it and return or throw away the BT Homehub 2.0.
Since connecting DG834GT for nearly 4.5 hours, I have had 1 incoming call but NO line drop. So, it is beginning to look good, finger crossed ;D.
I will keep you posted on any developements.
Many regards,
Archie
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Archie ...... your router would drop synch whilst the engineer cut the line down at the PCP (Green cabinet) to test.
It does appear you have had a decent engineer who has been thorough in his faulting. There's perhaps 'other stuff' that he could have done to locate the fault, but without actually being on-site it's hard to question whether he did indeed try other things, as you may not have seen him using his meters or know what actual tests he was carrying out, Archie.
Lets say he did carry out all the tests needed, and couldn't 'find' anything. I've had the same scenario myself umpteen times and as the same EU's have never complained since, I can only assume it's down to our 3-way crimps we use in the PCP's. I have had a few occasions (like every other engineer will have), whereby it seems as if the crimp has 'taken' both wires, but in reality one of those wires can easily be pulled out of the crimp. Therefore giving a 'HR' fault condition. We engineers have to follow certain quality processes whenever we enter the network, and one of those is 'remaking' poor cab crimps (ie-Blue Beans) within the range your working on in the PCP. It's so easy to mis-crimp a pair of wires when rattling through them.
Seeing as your line has been fine since the engineer visited the PCP and various other places, I would conclude that he has removed a 'HR' fault. But, as he hasn't actually pin-pointed it, he's been honest and admitted as much.
Fingers crossed for you Archie.
BKCAT --- you're correct mate, but it is a double-edged sword. ??? The D-side network per-se does include all wiring from the PCP to the EU's master socket, but we tend to distinguish between the pair to the DP and the pair from the DP to the EU's. It just makes it easier when passing info around to clarify which bit of the D-side there is an issue with. ;D
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BKCAT --- you're correct mate, but it is a double-edged sword. ??? The D-side network per-se does include all wiring from the PCP to the EU's master socket, but we tend to distinguish between the pair to the DP and the pair from the DP to the EU's. It just makes it easier when passing info around to clarify which bit of the D-side there is an issue with. ;D
The b*cat nods to acknowledge that information and thanks RP for advancing this novice's education. ;)
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@ razpag & burakkucat
Thanks, razpag for your explanation of the 'decent' engineer's efforts in trying to locate the fault. All noted and appreciated.
However, the glory did not last long. :( The router (Netgear connected @ 14:34 yesterday) stayed connected for approx. 22.5 hours despite receiving calls yesterday. Today I have had a few calls of which 2 calls had caused the disconnects. I have made a note of the times and area from where the calls originated. Also the point to note is - this happened when the calls finished. Now the big question is: do I still continue to monitor until 72 hours are up or do I notify my ISP of my finding now. Or is there something wrong with my equipement - doubts are cripping in!!
I shall be guided by your wisdom. ;)
The DLM has now knocked down my up and down speeds already. >:(
Regards,
Archie.
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However, the glory did not last long. :( The router (Netgear connected @ 14:34 yesterday) stayed connected for approx. 22.5 hours despite receiving calls yesterday. Today I have had a few calls of which 2 calls had caused the disconnects. I have made a note of the times and area from where the calls originated. Also the point to note is - this happened when the calls finished. Now the big question is: do I still continue to monitor until 72 hours are up or do I notify my ISP of my finding now.
Oops. :(
I would recommend that you continue the monitoring / logging for the full period. After all, we are now in the weekend. Would an ISP call centre do much today? (Rhetorical question.)
I find your comment interesting: "happened [the disconnects] when the calls finished". As I see it, it is still pointing to something like a poor (HR) joint in your pair. I don't think the area from where the calls originated are relevant, however your local weather conditions could be significant. Was it raining or had it been raining prior to those two disconnects? Also were those two calls, which resulted in disconnects, consecutive calls? Or were there other "non-disconnecting" calls in between them?
Let's wait to see RP's latest comments.
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Hi Archie,
Been out of the loop for a while as regards this thread, but the problems you have resemble more and more like what I also experienced.
Others on here are a lot (and I mean a lot) more expert than me but my two penneth is:
(1) I would as others have also suggested stick to the Netgear router unless you suspect it is the cause of your problems. Mine behaved well in the face of serious line quality issues - its a Broadcom chip version. And there is a temptation to switch all sorts of things when you hit a problem but you have to be patient and methodical in your trouble shooting. Changing too many things (variables) at once can soemtimes be counterproductive.
(2) Are you continuing to periodically perform a quiet line test? In my case I noticed that the noise on my line dramatically increased following a line disconnect caused by an incoming call. The line was perfectly quiet prior to the call. Have not a clue as to why this should be so. Look at the RouterStats before and after the event to see if it tells you anthything. The only way I could reconnect with any semblance of stability after an incoming call had been received was to turn both router and PC off for about 10 minutes.
(3) Wet weather severely degraded the stability/speed of my line and increased the incidence of disconnects (apart from those caused by telephony calls). Have you noticed that?
You seem to have had a good OR engineer on the case so hopefully things will move forward now toward a resolution.
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....however your local weather conditions could be significant. Was it raining or had it been raining prior to those two disconnects? Also were those two calls, which resulted in disconnects, consecutive calls? Or were there other "non-disconnecting" calls in between them?
Yesterday rained heavily at night. This morning sunny and sill dry. Calls causing disconnect were consecutive, but approx. 3 hours apart and the first call from landline, the second call was from a mobile phone; if this helps in diagnosis.
Next call (approx. 20 mins later) from landline but from a much longer distance did not cause a disconnect. I find this very strange.
Yes, lets wait and see what Mr. razpag thinks.
Regards,
Archie
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Hello bbnovice,
Thanks for your feedback.
(1) I would as others have also suggested stick to the Netgear router unless you suspect it is the cause of your problems. Mine behaved well in the face of serious line quality issues - its a Broadcom chip version. And there is a temptation to switch all sorts of things when you hit a problem but you have to be patient and methodical in your trouble shooting. Changing too many things (variables) at once can soemtimes be counterproductive.
I am not suspecting Netgear as I had temporarily changed the router from Netgear to ActionTec and yet with ActionTec I was getting the disconnects. So, this rules the router out. Following my ISP's suggestions we had eliminated 1 item at a time till we had router and phone connected to the Test socket via filter. Now I have both connected to the master socket via BT's ADSL filtered face-plate.
I do not know what chipset I have in my Netgear. How do you find this out?
(2) Are you continuing to periodically perform a quiet line test? In my case I noticed that the noise on my line dramatically increased following a line disconnect caused by an incoming call. The line was perfectly quiet prior to the call. Have not a clue as to why this should be so. Look at the RouterStats before and after the event to see if it tells you anthything. The only way I could reconnect with any semblance of stability after an incoming call had been received was to turn both router and PC off for about 10 minutes.
Very good point. I hadn't thought of that. I shall be doing that as from now. The quiet test shows very low level noise just now.
(3) Wet weather severely degraded the stability/speed of my line and increased the incidence of disconnects (apart from those caused by telephony calls). Have you noticed that?
Had very heavy rain last night and the first call received at midday caused the drop after the call ended. So, despite heavy rain during the night, the router did not disconnect until after the end of this first call.
You seem to have had a good OR engineer on the case so hopefully things will move forward now toward a resolution.
Thanks. I hope I get the same OR Engineer on the next call. He was very helpful and explained a lot of things in his procedures.
Many regards,
Archie
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I do not know what chipset I have in my Netgear. How do you find this out?
Ah, could that be a secret? Intuition, divination, occult practices perhaps . . . :no:
In my case, it is reading the information on sites such as this and the Wikipedia Netgear DG834 (series) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DG834GT) page. :)
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Hi guys.
Thanks for having (maybe mis-guided) faith in me. :-[
Archie, what a shame the problem has resurfaced. I cannot reiterate how difficult, problem-solving some faulty broadband circuits can be. Further to my comments above (and also mentioned by B*Cat), you could indeed have a HR (High resistance) fault. These can manifest themselves anywhere ,from the NTE5 back to poorly soldered joints on the MDF in the exchange. Thats why I questioned that even though it seems you had a decent engineer out, did he carry out all the tests required ?? I would be surprised if you knew the answer to this Archie, unless you are a closet Openreach faultsman techniques-phobe ?? ;D
My advice would be to ring your ISP straight away. Insist on having another SFI2 visit asap, and insist they put in their on-screen notes about the circuit losing synch when phone is in use. Don't go too much into detail about times and what type of trunk calls etc etc, just say it's when the phone is used.
Hopefully, you will either get the same engineer , or another that doesn't worry about what his manager will say if he goes over the scheduled hours on the job, and will carry on until he fixes it.
As I've said on here many times before, 'remote virtual faulting' is ridiculous in itself. :) I couldn't ever turn round and say "Its an outside fault on the D-side" without actually being present on the fault. What I can do, is give you a bit of info on what to ask the OR engineer to do. This type of fault is usually one of two things, 1) HR ....... 2) Faulty SP equipment in the exchange.
When the engineer arrives I would ask that he utilises his TDR (Time/Domain Reflectometer) which is sometimes called a 'Mole', to see if there are any HR's visible on the line. If it's a HR in its early stages, it may not be sufficient to view with the 'Mole' without actually ringing the landline. As this draws roughly 90vac (as opposed to its normal state of 50vdc), then if there is a HR it should then be traceable due to the increase in voltage/current used. Simply put, engineer attaches the mole to the 2 wires where it enters your property and then rings the landline whilst looking at the mole for the HR.
I would also ask that he utilise simple faulting techniques like using his 'Butt' phone on 17070 when checking for synch along the cable route. At the end of the day, this is what your fault is, the modem drops when the phone is in use. Its no good just looking to just get synch at various test points along the way, he needs to also load the circuit up by drawing dial-tone with hiss 'Butt' phone as well.
I would hope he will do this as a matter of course, but as mooted before, we are only human and are all fallible to making errors, or just simply forgetting.
I just hope for all concerned that the fault is still present when the engineers attends site. An intermittent fault that is working perfectly well when we are in attendance, is a nighmare scenario. The engineer will have to hope he can 'see' a HR with his mole in that circumstance.
Apologies if this doesn't make much sense as I can ramble on a bit, but trying to put over what may be needed, without insulting previous engineers, can sometimes be difficult. Make the call Archie, get someone out asap. ;D
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@ RP,
(Sorry to Archie as this is a little off topic)
I'd very much like to know your views on the differences between the TDR and the screen you can call up on the JDSU ADSL test instrument. (Assuming that you are talking about a different instrument and not the JDSU.)
Kind regards,
Walter
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Hi
The 834 GT Has a Broadcom chipset
Regards Jeff
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There are two threads over in the forum on the ThinkBroadband site, for which I'll post the URLs --
http://forums.thinkbroadband.com/technical/3854118-bt-what-a-bunch-of-idiots.html
http://forums.thinkbroadband.com/aaisp/f/4009184-aaisp-does-what-it-says-on-the-tin.html
You might like to have a quick read of them, Archie.
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In my case, it is reading the information on sites such as this and the Wikipedia Netgear DG834 (series) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DG834GT) page. :)
Thanks, burakkucat. I will look it up.
For info: Weather conditions today, drizzling all morning; afternoon stop drizzle but windy. Had an incoming call this morning at 11.28. But NO DISCONNECT this time.
Archie
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My advice would be to ring your ISP straight away. Insist on having another SFI2 visit asap, and insist they put in their on-screen notes about the circuit losing synch when phone is in use. Don't go too much into detail about times and what type of trunk calls etc etc, just say it's when the phone is used.
...................
Apologies if this doesn't make much sense as I can ramble on a bit, but trying to put over what may be needed, without insulting previous engineers, can sometimes be difficult. Make the call Archie, get someone out asap. ;D
Thanks, razpag all comments noted. I will get on to my ISP and ask them what you suggest.
And, yes the ramble was surely very helpful, though it did not make much sense to me; but I am learning thanks to you, burakkucat and, to keep it short, all the others who posted here.
Incidentally, dispite receving a call this morning, I had no disconnect and the router has stayed connected for nearly 24 hours. It seems it is a funny sort of fault on my line.
Archie.
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The 834 GT Has a Broadcom chipset
Thanks, jeffbb. I will make a note.
Archie.
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@ RP,
(Sorry to Archie as this is a little off topic)
I'd very much like to know your views on the differences between the TDR and the screen you can call up on the JDSU ADSL test instrument. (Assuming that you are talking about a different instrument and not the JDSU.)
Kind regards,
Walter
Walter, my views will be akin to every single OR engineers views, on the different TDR meters/function available.
When we had (some still do by the way) HAWK's or 301's for testing on TDR, we could be pretty sure where the HR was. Fast forward to our latest, more modern testers (JDSU and EXXFO) and they are great on DSL functions, but god-damned awful on TDR functions.
A HR will present itself on a TDR by showing a 'peak' on the tracer, or a 'trough' for a short-circuit. The 2 meters I mentioned are great at pin-pointing these types of fault condition. The modern ones are terrible at it, unless it is a 'full on' HR or SC.
Give me the old testers any day for this type of fault.
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There are two threads over in the forum on the ThinkBroadband site, for which I'll post the URLs --
http://forums.thinkbroadband.com/technical/3854118-bt-what-a-bunch-of-idiots.html
http://forums.thinkbroadband.com/aaisp/f/4009184-aaisp-does-what-it-says-on-the-tin.html
You might like to have a quick read of them, Archie.
Thanks. Read both the threads. Very informative and interesting. Do you think I should ask for lift and shift?
Archie.
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You cant Archie.
It's down to the engineer visiting on a SFI fault and co-op'ing with your SP whilst on the fault. See my comments previously about what your fault may be down to. IE- 2 reasons ..... HR, or SP's equipment fault.
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Do yourself a favour, stop trying to read all the info you are getting on here and other forums, get an SFI visit arranged asap. As I stated hours ago. ;D
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Thanks. Read both the threads. Very informative and interesting. Do you think I should ask for lift and shift?
Nooo. :no: Please follow RP's advice.
I mentioned those threads so that you can have some idea of the complexity of fault-finding and not to suggest that you should do anything similar.
I think from my short time as a member and posting to these fora that regular contributors will realise that I'm not too happy with the subject header of the first thread. ::) Why? Because it could be viewed as a criticism of OR. I will always defend OR, especially the people who do the actual work. :) If that subject header was just written so to refer to BTR or BTW, then I would agree. :P
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Do yourself a favour, stop trying to read all the info you are getting on here and other forums, get an SFI visit arranged asap. As I stated hours ago. ;D
Thanks,razpag. I have already done this with my ISP through their Ticket procedure which has been open for a few months on this issue. I have insisted on OR's SFI2 Engineer visit to arranged asap as you suggested. So, now we wait and see what response I get.
I will also put in a call to ADSL fault unit which is open 24/7.
Archie.
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Walter, my views will be akin to every single OR engineers views, on the different TDR meters/function available.
When we had (some still do by the way) HAWK's or 301's for testing on TDR, we could be pretty sure where the HR was. Fast forward to our latest, more modern testers (JDSU and EXXFO) and they are great on DSL functions, but god-damned awful on TDR functions.
A HR will present itself on a TDR by showing a 'peak' on the tracer, or a 'trough' for a short-circuit. The 2 meters I mentioned are great at pin-pointing these types of fault condition. The modern ones are terrible at it, unless it is a 'full on' HR or SC.
Give me the old testers any day for this type of fault.
Very interesting, RP. So if I should ever come across a second-hand Bird Technologies SignalHawk (http://birdtechnologies.thomasnet.com/viewitems/all-categories-test-equipment/-categories-test-equipment-sh-36-signalhawk-series?&forward=1), that would be an item to own? So far, I have not been able to find much information about the OR issued JDSU device . . . I need to find the time to thoroughly examine the pages of the manufacturer's web-site (http://www.jdsu.com/en-gb/test-and-measurement/Pages/default.aspx).
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Nooo. :no: Please follow RP's advice.
Fine, I was only exploring the possibilies. My noviceness showed up, didn't it.
I mentioned those threads so that you can have some idea of the complexity of fault-finding and not to suggest that you should do anything similar.
Thanks and I appreciate your help to increase my knowledge in this area. :)
I think from my short time as a member and posting to these fora that regular contributors will realise that I'm not too happy with the subject header of the first thread. ::) Why? Because it could be viewed as a criticism of OR. I will always defend OR, especially the people who do the actual work. :) If that subject header was just written so to refer to BTR or BTW, then I would agree. :P
I am very sorry if I gave you that impression with my choice of the title. It was not intended to be a criticism of OR or come to that any engineer. My sincere appologies if it came across as that. I was only seeking expert views through this forum. :-[
Kind regards
Archie.
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Walter, my views will be akin to every single OR engineers views, on the different TDR meters/function available.
When we had (some still do by the way) HAWK's or 301's for testing on TDR, we could be pretty sure where the HR was. Fast forward to our latest, more modern testers (JDSU and EXXFO) and they are great on DSL functions, but god-damned awful on TDR functions.
A HR will present itself on a TDR by showing a 'peak' on the tracer, or a 'trough' for a short-circuit. The 2 meters I mentioned are great at pin-pointing these types of fault condition. The modern ones are terrible at it, unless it is a 'full on' HR or SC.
Give me the old testers any day for this type of fault.
Very interesting, RP. So if I should ever come across a second-hand Bird Technologies SignalHawk (http://birdtechnologies.thomasnet.com/viewitems/all-categories-test-equipment/-categories-test-equipment-sh-36-signalhawk-series?&forward=1), that would be an item to own? So far, I have not been able to find much information about the OR issued JDSU device . . . I need to find the time to thoroughly examine the pages of the manufacturer's web-site (http://www.jdsu.com/en-gb/test-and-measurement/Pages/default.aspx).
Thats not the type of HAWK meter we use Cat.
Technology improvements (in all walks of life) are generally something to be embraced. Even though initially we tend to hate 'change', we generally persevere and eventually realise the latest 'version' is indeed better than its predecessor.
Not so with the JDSU and EXXFO testers. I've seen the comings and goings of the Oscillator, the Ohmeter 18C, onto the 301C and then the HAWK. All would pretty much accurately home-in on where the fault was, and each piece of equipment was easier to use. But the JDSU breaks that mould. As I said previously, the HR faults present itself as a 'peak' on the meter viewing screen. In laymans terms, we will see a 'flat-line' from the point where the meter is connected to the wires, up until where the HR is, and an inverted 'V' will show up at the exact distance from the meter.
With the JDSU it's like looking at a sketch of the Himalayan mountain range, there's 'peaks' all over the place and unless it's a 'full on' HR (IE- the wire is just about to break), it's quite hard to interpret the results shown, especially at shorter disatnces under 30/40 mtrs.
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Archie,
I'm glad you are following RP's advice (he is the expert) and have managed to arrange a SFI visit.
The only thing I would add is to second what RP says about testing. My fault simply did not show up on the OR test equipment despite all the symptoms of it being an HR fault. The OR engineer only managed to fix the problem in the end by trial and error by remaking connections and changing copper along the route from the premise to the exchange. He eventually fixed the fault but I believe he could not swear 100% where the fault actually lay. That is no criticism of him but is a critique of the test results he had at his disposal.
The moral here I think is that testing can be inconclusive despite an obvious network fault being present. How you use that information when you deal with OR (if you need to) I leave to your judgement.
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I think from my short time as a member and posting to these fora that regular contributors will realise that I'm not too happy with the subject header of the first thread. ::) Why? Because it could be viewed as a criticism of OR. I will always defend OR, especially the people who do the actual work. :) If that subject header was just written so to refer to BTR or BTW, then I would agree. :P
I am very sorry if I gave you that impression with my choice of the title. It was not intended to be a criticism of OR or come to that any engineer. My sincere appologies if it came across as that. I was only seeking expert views through this forum. :-[
:paperbag: We seem to have a bit of a misunderstanding and there is nothing for you to apologise about, Archie. I was referring to the first of the two threads from the ThinkBroadband site, for which I had provided the URLs. It's subject header is "BT: What a bunch of idiots" and it's poster was "mattewan". :drink:
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The moral here I think is that testing can be inconclusive despite an obvious network fault being present. How you use that information when you deal with OR (if you need to) I leave to your judgement.
Thank you, bbnovice for giving us all the benefit of your experience with the illuding type of line fault. I shall bear your advice in mind.
Now, I wait and see what action the ISP decides to take and then I shall have to play it by ear.
Kind Regards,
Archie.
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:paperbag: We seem to have a bit of a misunderstanding and there is nothing for you to apologise about, Archie. I was referring to the first of the two threads from the ThinkBroadband site, for which I had provided the URLs. It's subject header is "BT: What a bunch of idiots" and it's poster was "mattewan". :drink:
Oooooops. !!!!! Have dropped a clanger here. :-[.
In a way I am glad it wasn't me upsetting the cart. Pheeeeew. ;D
Happy to know that it was a misunderstanding on my part. ::)
Kind regards,
Archie.
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:friends:
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:friends:
Yep. 8)
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Hi Guys,
Just an update on this issue.
It has been drizzling on and off whole day. I have had 3 incoming calls and several out going calls today. The strange thing is, I haven't had a single disconnect today. The router has stayed connected for last 31 hours. Does this mean that the line has now stabilised?
If that is the case then my up/down stream speeds are very low. Before this issue my download IP profile used to be 2500kbps and now it has dropped down to 1700 kbps. The upload speed used to be 390 and now dropped down to 88. Will DLM automatically up the speeds later on or will I have to power off and 30 mins later power up the router to get the improved speeds?
Many regards,
Archie.
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Hi guys,
Just an update on Router - it disconnected after 34 hours. There was no telephone call. It has just done it on its own. All hopes dashed again. :(
Archie.
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Just an update on Router - it disconnected after 34 hours. There was no telephone call. It has just done it on its own.
Without seeing the overall trend of your SNRM (graphs are nice), it is impossible to say what has happened.
It could be that your SNRM was rather small and as the inevitable "hours of darkness" noise rose, the SNRM became too small for the modem to hold sync -- so it performed a reset, sync'ing at a lower rate but with a bigger SNRM. Note the previous sentence is pure speculation. The only thing that is definite is that you have an issue with your ADSL connection.
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Thanks for clarification of possible reason for the last disconnect, burakkucat.
I haven't managed to set up the routerstat yet but following are the stats from the DG834GT:
ADSL Link Downstream Upstream
Connection Speed 2039 kbps 88 kbps
Line Attenuation 63.5 db 37.0 db
Noise Margin 13.3 db 21.6 db
The above gives me an IP profile of down=1700 and up=80 instead of the figures in my post #8.
I appreciate this might not be enough to analyse cause for disconnect.
Archie.
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Hello burakkucat & razpag,
As b'cat requested I have run the RouterStats' SNR to produce a graph, but I am unable to attach it this post. Please tell me how do I do this.
Thanks very much.
Archie.
[attachment deleted by admin]
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So sorry guys, it is there. I have done it.
Archie.
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Your noise margin is fine.
I take it you have dialled 17070 option 2 and listened for noise? put it on speaker if you can but do not have ear to phone when she speaks.
Do you here anything?
Then try option 1 and see if line drops, try and record the system with router stats while testing.
Then repeat the tests with the router in test socket and no filter or phone connected, use a mobile to dial your number.
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Thanks,BritBrat.
I have tried 17070 option 2 before, but not with the speaker on. Your way is different. I will try that.
Thanks very much.
Archie.
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Hi Britbrat,
Then repeat the tests with the router in test socket and no filter or phone connected, use a mobile to dial your number.
I do not think this will be possible as the router connector is different from the Test socket. So, I will have to use the filter to connect the router to the test socket. Don't you agree?
Archie.
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Sorry about that, I forgot I use a different type of cable that terminates with a normall BT plug.
What I was trying to do was rule out everything local leaving the BT line as the only possible problem.
The reason I use the speaker is if any noise is there it will be amplified. But dont let her shout in your ear, it hurts.
I let her speak then I listen but not for to long (15 secs).
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Thanks, BritBrat. Much appreciated. So, I will have to use a filter to connect the router only to the test socket.
Archie.
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Hi Guys,
As promised, here is the update on the issue.
My ISP has arranged for BT OR Boost Enginner visit for Thursday pm. ;D
Can't wait to get this this issue sorted. :)
Regards,
Archie.
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Good stuff Archie. As the kettle is boiling, relay as much info as you can to the engineer about previous visits etc etc ..... I would maybe show him this thread as well. ;)
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Hello razpag,
Good stuff Archie. As the kettle is boiling, relay as much info as you can to the engineer about previous visits etc etc ..... I would maybe show him this thread as well. ;)
Thank you. I will do just what you suggest.
Just out of interest, I have had 2 disconnects today and 1 yesterday, but not due to incoming or out going calls. :( Today the weather has been hot and dry.
Regards,
Archie.
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My ISP has arranged for BT OR Boost Enginner visit for Thursday pm. ;D
Excellent news. That's what I've been waiting to read. :)
As I am not a qualified person for such fault-finding matters . . . :-X
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Archie ......... contrary to popular belief, HR's are more prevalent on hot, dry days. When it's wet the 'gap' in the HR is 'filled' due to the rain water and as such has a better connection, ie- less resistance. :)
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That's true. If rain gets into joints it could cause other problems of course.
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Excellent news. That's what I've been waiting to read. :)
As I am not a qualified person for such fault-finding matters . . . :-X
Thanks very much. We wait and see what happens tomorrow pm. ;)
Your support and encouragement has helped a lot regardless of qualification or not. So, thank you. 8)
Archie.
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Archie ......... contrary to popular belief, HR's are more prevalent on hot, dry days. When it's wet the 'gap' in the HR is 'filled' due to the rain water and as such has a better connection, ie- less resistance. :)
[/quote]That's true. If rain gets into joints it could cause other problems of course.
Duely noted, razpag & roseway. Thanks for help and encouragement.
I am very pleased that I came on this forum for help. It has been very invalueable. ;)
Today it has been cloudy but warm and have had 2 disconnections already, one of which was due to incoming call. These are the 2 that I know of. There could have been more during my absence!!!! :(
We wait and see how we fare tomorrow pm.
Cheers,
Archie.
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If the engineer is adamant that there are no HR's or any kind of network fault causing the problem, ask him if he can persuade the SP to do a 'Lift & Shift'.
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If the engineer is adamant that there are no HR's or any kind of network fault causing the problem, ask him if he can persuade the SP to do a 'Lift & Shift'.
Thanks for the hint, razpag
Archie.
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Today it has been cloudy but warm and have had 2 disconnections already, one of which was due to incoming call. These are the 2 that I know of. There could have been more during my absence!!!! :(
If you have routerstats running constantly in the background, you would be able to spot the disconnections from the graphs or logs. A clear indication would be both the SNRM and sync speed both dropping to zero for a significant number of seconds.
Don't confuse a sharp downward spike in either graph as a disconnection. A downward spike can occur when the router is performing a task at precisely the same moment when routerstats attempts to interrogate it.
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Hello burakkucat ,
Thank you. Iam running the RouterStat now. Have had 2 disconnections during the night.
Archie.
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Hi
Both of these showed a change in synch rate and or SNR margin ?
Regards Jeff
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Hello jeffbb,
Yes, it did increase the SNRM and lowered the speeds, both up and down. This expected as DLM thinks that the line is unstable, which in fact is the case with my line.
Regards,
Archie.
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Hi Guys,
UPDATE
As you know I had BT OR Boost Engineer visiting me today pm. It did not happen. I had a call from the supervisor at OR to say that the engineer is currently sorting his last call and will be coming to me after he has sorted it. At 17.15 I had a call from the engineer that as he had not finished with his last call can he come tomorrow am. I said it was fine with me, as I want to get the issue sorted.
He suggested that first thing tomorrow morning he will give me different pair of copper from the d side and hoped that would sort it. He also asked me to monitor the line as from tomorrow. He will come and see me after the pair swap anyway. If that fails, he will have to carry out the lift and shift and he would inform my ISP of his actions and I do not have to worry about that side of things. GREAT ;D
In the mean time, overnight, he would try and organise test equipment at the exchange to monitor my current line.
So, tomorrow is the day to wait for. ;)
Regards,
Archie.
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Hi
quote :Yes, it did increase the SNRM and lowered the speeds, both up and down. This expected as DLM thinks that the line is unstable,
The changes are quite normal .not just because the line is unstable . The SNR margin is negotiated between the router and the DSLAM during the connection process . Depending on the current noise on the line then a resynch will show either an increase in SNR margin to match the Target SNR ,if the line is noisier than the last resynch so reducing the synch rate . The SNR margin can go down giving an increase in Synch rate if the current line noise is less than the noise at the previous resynch .
The main reason I asked is that it confirms They were genuine resynchs .
Regards Jeff
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Yes, jrffbb. You are correct, they were genuine resyncs.
Archie.
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Hi Guys,
UPDATE
As you know I had BT OR Boost Engineer visiting me today pm. It did not happen. I had a call from the supervisor at OR to say that the engineer is currently sorting his last call and will be coming to me after he has sorted it. At 17.15 I had a call from the engineer that as he had not finished with his last call can he come tomorrow am. I said it was fine with me, as I want to get the issue sorted.
He suggested that first thing tomorrow morning he will give me different pair of copper from the d side and hoped that would sort it. He also asked me to monitor the line as from tomorrow. He will come and see me after the pair swap anyway. If that fails, he will have to carry out the lift and shift and he would inform my ISP of his actions and I do not have to worry about that side of things. GREAT ;D
In the mean time, overnight, he would try and organise test equipment at the exchange to monitor my current line.
So, tomorrow is the day to wait for. ;)
Regards,
Archie.
Sounds good Archie, apart from the last bit ??!! There is no kit we can fit in the exchange to monitor the DSL part of your circuit. The 'monitoring' if you like is permanently happening via your ISP's equipment. We can ask for a historical view of performance from the ISP, via their RRT and Radius Logs.
The only way to 'monitor' the DSL circuit in the exchange, would be to completely disconnect the whole of the network side (by pulling the fuses), and connect a Hub/Router directly onto the MDF wiring, as every circuit can only have the one Hub/Router connected to it. This would leave you without both DSL and phone services, and would only serve to prove if the ISP's equipment was faulty.
I may be missing a trick here, or mis-interpreted what he means, but there will be NO monitoring of you DSL circuit done in the exchange. Believe me.
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Hi Archie,
If you want to do your own monitoring you could buy a 2Wire 2700 HGV modem (BT's Business Hub) on e-bay or Amazon and use the diagnostic facility.
Here's one I prepared earlier, on one of the lines I'm keeping an eye on.
Kind regards,
Walter
[attachment deleted by admin]
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Hi Walter,
Thanks for the info. I will bear that in mind. Also, will the BT 2 wire HGV work with 21CN and how easy is it to set it up for an ISP other than BT?
Archie.
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Sounds good Archie, apart from the last bit ??!! There is no kit we can fit in the exchange to monitor the DSL part of your circuit. The 'monitoring' if you like is permanently happening via your ISP's equipment. We can ask for a historical view of performance from the ISP, via their RRT and Radius Logs.
The only way to 'monitor' the DSL circuit in the exchange, would be to completely disconnect the whole of the network side (by pulling the fuses), and connect a Hub/Router directly onto the MDF wiring, as every circuit can only have the one Hub/Router connected to it. This would leave you without both DSL and phone services, and would only serve to prove if the ISP's equipment was faulty.
I may be missing a trick here, or mis-interpreted what he means, but there will be NO monitoring of you DSL circuit done in the exchange. Believe me.
Thanks, razpag for correcting my misunderstanding. You are correct. There was no overnight testing of gear at the exchange. Or the engineer could not do this as you quite rightly pointed out.
The good news is, the same OR engineer had taken on this task, so he was familiar with the issue/s I had.
Also, may I please correct the info I provided in my last post:
He suggested that first thing tomorrow morning he will give me different pair of copper from the d side and hoped that would sort it.
In fact the Engineer had provided the new pair from the e side this morning and run all the tests from the e side and from the router end. They looked good. Also, he has kept he his fingers crossed that this would clear the fault. I now have to monitor the line for next 48 to 72 hours and report it to my ISP if the drops continue. He suggested that to find a new (spare) pair at d side is going to be nightmare.
So, 'Lift & Shift' is off the agenda at present because the gear at the exchange appear to be in good order.
Lets see how things shape up in next few days.
Archie.
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Hi Archie,
The picture above is a 21CN service but on ADSL1 due to the line length.
Around here (01483 {THames} Guildford area exchanges) any line showing the vendor as Infineon, rather than TI, unknown or Alcatel, is usually a 21CN line; but this is probably not the case everywhere.
The method of modem set up is slightly different, using the standard parameters, but is not too difficult to do. I must know of about 20 units now on BT wholesale and LLU providers (as I suggest people use them) and only two of these are BT business-supplied ones.
The only question mark that I'm aware of is that, although capable, the 2Wire is not IPv6 compatible at present. I can't see BT wanting to change every business hub so a firmware upgrade must surely be arriving before too long?
If anyone is aware of the upgrade situation please say so.
Kind regards,
Walter
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Thanks Walter.
Noted and thanks for the help. When I decide to go for 2-wire BT Hub, I may call upon this forum for help. I am sure your experience will come in handy.
Archie
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Hello Gentle Folks,
As promised, here is the latest on my connection issue:
OR Boost Engineer completed work at about Midday Friday (17/06). Had a disconnect at about 19:45.
Experienced quite a few drops (about 10 drops) on Saturday (18/06)
Just one drop on Sunday (19/06) but very early in the morning (@ about 04:15). Since then it going great guns. Uninterupted connection for last 38 hours.
@ razpag, I do not understand why the line behaved so violently on Saturday. Could it be that the line was trying to establish stabilisation!!. In your experience, is there any logical explanation for such behaviour?
Any way, it is looking good at present. Hurray for BT OR Boost Engineer. ;D
I await your comments.
regards,
Archie
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:thumbs: For the OR SFI Engineer. :clap2:
Before we :congrats: please post your current line statistics --
Sync, SNRM & Atten., both Down and Up.
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Hello Gentle Folks,
As promised, here is the latest on my connection issue:
OR Boost Engineer completed work at about Midday Friday (17/06). Had a disconnect at about 19:45.
Experienced quite a few drops (about 10 drops) on Saturday (18/06)
Just one drop on Sunday (19/06) but very early in the morning (@ about 04:15). Since then it going great guns. Uninterupted connection for last 38 hours.
@ razpag, I do not understand why the line behaved so violently on Saturday. Could it be that the line was trying to establish stabilisation!!. In your experience, is there any logical explanation for such behaviour?
Any way, it is looking good at present. Hurray for BT OR Boost Engineer. ;D
I await your comments.
regards,
Archie
Result Archie (he says in hushed tones, in the hope it is truly fixed). In all honesty, I do not know why is was as unstable on Saturday as it was before and after ?? Yes, the 'stabilisation' period will have been instigated, and the ISP's advice is to let it run it's course before any kind of intervention is deployed. As B*Cat has said, only your 'stats' will give you a picture as to what caused the drops.
As an aside, did the OR gadgy explain what he/she had found, or what they had done to give better stability ??? ;D
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@ b'cat & r'pag,
Thanks for a very quick responses.
Below is the stats from my router:
System Up Time 63:06:30
Port Status TxPkts RxPkts Collisions Tx B/s Rx B/s Up Time
WAN PPPoA 61243 69890 0 126 449 39:22:36
LAN 10M/100M 10501 0 0 8 0 63:06:26
WLAN 11M/54M 267530 207932 0 1317 167 63:06:21
ADSL Link Downstream Upstream
Connection Speed 3215 kbps 296 kbps
Line Attenuation 62.5 db 36.6 db
Noise Margin 5.7 db 11.1 db
I hope this helps. Please note that the Downstream Line Attenuation, before, used to be 63.5 dB now it has dropped to 62.5. I don't know if this is significant.
As for the OR SF1 Engineer, he was very good chap. (He admired my cup of tea - so he had 2 cups and biscuits during his visit on Friday. ;) ) All he said was that he had decided to change the copper pair from the 'e' side and hoped that this would do the trick; as the 'd' side would be a nightmare for him as it would very difficult to find a spare pair for me. I hope this makes any sense to you!!!
Well guys, I hope any pray that his solution lasts for good. Just checked for drops and it is going for just over 39.5 hours.
Cheers,
Archie.
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Fingers crossed indeed Archie. Nice speed for the attenuation. ;D
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Fingers crossed indeed Archie. Nice speed for the attenuation. ;D
Thanks; but BT SpeedTest result has IP Profile at 2000kbps:
"Download speed achieved during the test was - 1738 Kbps
For your connection, the acceptable range of speeds is 800-2000 Kbps.
Additional Information: Your DSL Connection Rate :3212 Kbps(DOWN-STREAM), 296 Kbps(UP-STREAM)
IP Profile for your line is - 2000 Kbps"
& "Upload speed achieved during the test was - 236 Kbps
Additional Information: Upstream Rate IP profile on your line is - 296 Kbps"
So, I suppose I shall have to wait till DLM adjusts them to higher values. ;D
The connection is on for nearly 42 Hours. :)
Archie.
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Line Attenuation 62.5 db 36.6 db
Obviously still high but (I shall presume) just as a factor of the line length now that a different pair is in use. (Remember, the E-side is the cabling between the PCP and the exchange.)
On the subject of line length, what do you see when you enter your details into Kitz' ADSL Exchange and Line Checker (http://kitz.co.uk/adsl/adslchecker.php)? When I enter my neighbours telephone number (with his permission, as I am fully LLU'd) and our postcode, I get the following estimate --
Exchange: Bury St Edmunds BT Code: EABSE
Location: Whiting St, IP33 1NS
Distance:- Direct: 1.8 km
(appx)* By Road: 2.41 km
Once I convert those distances into units that I can appreciate and add on a factor to account for the fact that the E-side does not take the straightest road route to the PCP to which we are connected (the PCP is further away from the exchange then we, the EUs, are -- so our D-side has to bring the pairs back!), it agrees with the estimate from Kitz' Maximum adsl speed calculator (http://kitz.co.uk/adsl/max_speed_calc.php) --
Estimation of your maximum rate adaptive adsl speed
Downstream
Attenuation 51 dB Approx Line Length 3.7 km
dslMAX 4608 kbps IP Profile 4000 kbps
adsl2+ (21CN) 4736 kbps IP Profile 4000 kbps
adsl2+ (LLU) 4736 kbps Throughput 4191 kbps
Please note that the Downstream Line Attenuation, before, used to be 63.5 dB now it has dropped to 62.5. I don't know if this is significant.
It certainly is significant -- for the better. :)
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@ Archie & BKC,
Apart from the direct benefit in the attenuation value, it also removes the possibility that your modem is "hiding" an even greater attenuation by just reporting the maximum allowed.
E.g. many of our long lines also report 63.5 dB on the normal modem page but examining that parameter in the 2Wire modem diagnostics pages values even up to an incredible 82 dB are recorded.
Kind regards,
Walter
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Thank you, Walter, for mentioning what I forgot to do -- that 63.5 dB attenuation is just the maximum limit that a regular modem/router can display and the actual value could be much higher.
So it may look as if Archie has achieved a 1 dB improvement in down-stream attenuation but as we don't really know the true original "before" value, the improvement could be significant. Especially when one remembers that the scale is logarithmic. (A difference of 3 dB is a change by a factor of two. ;) )
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On the subject of line length, what do you see when you enter your details into Kitz' ADSL Exchange and Line Checker (http://kitz.co.uk/adsl/adslchecker.php)?
Thanks burakkucat. Below is the result I get:
Location: Victoria Road,
Distance:- Direct: 3.42 km
(appx)* By Road: 4.83 km
Status
ADSL enabled: March 31, 2000
DSL Max enabled: March 31, 2006
SDSL enabled : Enabled
21CN due : (PSTN) N/A
21CN WBC (Broadband) Enabled
Broadband Access Market Broadband Access† Market 3
I am on Market 3, ADSL2+.
@ Everyone,
I have had two drops today: 1) very early this morning at 04:04 and 2) at 16:29. So, it seems that we are still NOT home and dry. Neither had anything to do with calls.
According to my ISP CSC, if the drops exceed 6 time within 72 hours, then it is counted as a fault. So, one per day may be acceptable bearing in mind that I do have a long line.
So, this is where we stand at present.
regards,
Archie.
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Hi
quote :"A difference of 3 dB is a change by a factor of two."
True but that relationship is NOT reflected in synch rate as an example
33db 7680 Kbps 30db 7904 Kbps about 3%
63db 1952 Kbps 60db 2560 Kbps about 30%
its variable but it is MORE significant at higher attenuations (above about 30 35 db)
more info http://www.internode.on.net/residential/adsl_broadband/easy_broadband/performance/
Regards Jeff
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Thanks Jeff. Will you allow me to use that statement for the average reported downstream attenuation? :-[ Or should b*cat just go and hide?
Archie -- Looking at the information from Kitz' ADSL Exchange and Line Checker that you've provided, we can see that your line length is in the order of twice the length of mine. As I have mentioned elsewhere, I am connected to 21CN equipment at a "Market 3" exchange. For quite sometime after the upgrade to 21CN equipment, I would suffer from the occasional drop and general "sluggishness" of my Internet connection. For some reason (I can't remember why), I decided to change the mode of my Netgear DG834Gv5 from the default setting of Auto to G.Dmt. Having now told it to connect using the original ADSL1 modulation, my problems seem to be solved. (But I still need to finish rationalising my internal wiring . . . Typical, really . . . Knows all the best practices and will advice others how to do it . . . Just need to get around to doing some of it for myself!)
Please keep us up to date with developments, as they evolve.
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Archie -- Looking at the information from Kitz' ADSL Exchange and Line Checker that you've provided, we can see that your line length is in the order of twice the length of mine.
Yes, agreed. So, I accept that I will not get much higher speed than what I am getting before DLM punishes me for frequent drops.
As I have mentioned elsewhere, I am connected to 21CN equipment at a "Market 3" exchange. For quite sometime after the upgrade to 21CN equipment, I would suffer from the occasional drop and general "sluggishness" of my Internet connection. For some reason (I can't remember why), I decided to change the mode of my Netgear DG834Gv5 from the default setting of Auto to G.Dmt. Having now told it to connect using the original ADSL1 modulation, my problems seem to be solved.
I had a look at my Netgear DG834GT setup etc, but it does not give me an option to change the mode. Where do I find this? Have I missed it? Should I get in touch with Netgear Support?
Please keep us up to date with developments, as they evolve.
I certainly will. Last couple of days, the disconnect frequency is creeping up gradually. My ISP CSC will contact me again soon to arrange further visit/s from FSI Engineer. This is the current situation.
Regards,
Archie.
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I had a look at my Netgear DG834GT setup etc, but it does not give me an option to change the mode. Where do I find this? Have I missed it? Should I get in touch with Netgear Support?
Login to the DG834 router
Select ADSL SETTINGS page from under the SETUP heading on the left hand menu
On the ADSL SETTINGS page navigate to DSL Mode. This is a drop down box which gives you a choice of Auto, G.DMT etc
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Login to the DG834 router
Select ADSL SETTINGS page from under the SETUP heading on the left hand menu
On the ADSL SETTINGS page navigate to DSL Mode. This is a drop down box which gives you a choice of Auto, G.DMT etc
Thanks, bbnovice. I followed your instructions. All I can see are:
ADSL Settings
Multiplexing Method -> This has dropdown box with a choice of LLC-Based. There is NO
DSL Mode
VPI
VCI
Please note that my router is DG834GT. It appears that we have different models of routers.
Thanks for your help.
Archie.
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I think you may need to install alternative firmware, such as DGTeam to get that option.
It's under Advanced ADSL Settings on my DG8343GT/DGTeam.
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Hello HPsauce,
I think you may need to install alternative firmware, such as DGTeam to get that option.
It's under Advanced ADSL Settings on my DG8343GT/DGTeam.
I have looked at the DGTeam site. Several Mirror options. It scared to go any further.
Any help or further advice available?
Archie.
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Make a new thread and a request for a DGteam firmware.
I think a number of us have various versions.
I am running:
V1.03.22 - DGTeam Rev. 1014
On my GT as I type.
See if these are still active:
http://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php/topic,8990.0.html
DARN - don't look like they are.
But I could upload them again.
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Make a new thread and a request for a DGteam firmware.
I think a number of us have various versions.
I am running:
V1.03.22 - DGTeam Rev. 1014
On my GT as I type.
But I could upload them again.
Thanks BritBrat that will be a great help.
Archie.
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Hi All,
Just an update
I have had frequent disconnects (not related to Incoming Calls) that my ISP has arranged a Boost (SFI) Engineer's visit on Wednesday (29/06) pm. Hopefully next visit is his last one.
Regards,
Archie.
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Hey,
Sorry to go back a bit on this conversation but for future reference here is the instructions on how to configure a BT Business Hub (2700 or 2701, fibre hub) and a Home Hub 2.0 series A and B. This can be used for future reference. And i would recommend netgears on a long line it is what OR engineers use to give to customers on long lines as a "gift" so i am told by an Ex engineer that works with me.
Business Hub (2700,2701, fibre hub): Go to address bar and type in 192.168.1.254. Go to settings, Broadband then link configuration. There you will see username, password and confirm password. Enter these details in as received from your SP. Scroll to the bottom and click save. System password is the serial number on the router by default unless changed otherwise.
Home hub 2.0 series A and B: Go to address bar and type in 192.168.1.254. Settings, Advanced settings, broadband, disconnect and enter new details then
click on connect. Default password is located on the back of the router unless changed by EU otherwise.
Good luck with your disconnections they can be a nightmare to find. Chances are there may be some loop fault hanging around somewhere the engineer just can't find it has been known to happen with these kind of issues. Or a possible unbalanced cable but those are just stabs in the dark. Good thing about a boost engineer is they check the entire network including internal network configuration the likes of your router and your PC and things like that. Not sure if they setup servers or network switches though for businesses never really got a straight answer for that.
Regards
Gary
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Hey,
Sorry to go back a bit on this conversation but for future reference here is the instructions on how to configure a BT Business Hub (2700 or 2701, fibre hub) and a Home Hub 2.0 series A and B. This can be used for future reference. And i would recommend netgears on a long line it is what OR engineers use to give to customers on long lines as a "gift" so i am told by an Ex engineer that works with me.
Hello coolsnakeman (Gary),
Thank you for the information on the above. What kept you? ;)
Sure it will be useful and handy to many of us.
Regards,
Archie.
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Not sure where you work or live coolsnake, but I can assure you OR engineers have never, ever carried Netgear routers as part of their van kit. Well, not around lancs and cumbria anyways. ;D
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Guess its only been northern ireland then loll. Thats only cause we are kind nice people over here :P
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Hello All,
UPDATE
2 Boost Engineers arrived today at approx 13:30. After tests from the premises, they decided to swap a pair of copper from d-side upto the DPC after registering high level of errors (knowing that previously e-side had been changed). After the swap on d-side, they had carried out furhter tests at the premises to find that the errors had dropped considerably. They had suggest to request a reset - whatever that means. They left at approx. 16:15.
Currtently, I have achieved good speeds considering the length of my line (Attenuation of 63dB) - my router has sync'd at 3400 kbps upstream and 444kbps downstream. The SNR's are 5.5dB (down) and 12dB (up) and holding.
I am keeping my fingers crossed.
Incidentally, I was thinking of turning the router off while away on Hols. - for safety reasons. Do I do this or leave it on? Any suggestions?
Many regards,
Archie.
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A positive outcome from that visit. :)
A reset request -- that would be to reset all the broadband equipment in the exchange that is connected to your line and to begin with a "clean slate", as if it was a new provision of a broadband service. This should also include a training period, when your modem / router should be left powered on 24/7.
When going on holiday (for, say, 10 or 14 days), then by all means switch it off. However please consider when the above training period will begin, for how long it will be running and when you are going on holiday. You may prefer to discuss the first two points with your ISP and see what they advise. ;)
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Thanks burakkucat .
I have already updated my ISP and asked them about Router to be left on for them to monitor the line while I am away.
Regards,
Archie.
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Sorry, burakkucat ; I forgot to mention that I already have had 2 disconnects.
Regards,
Archie.
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@ burakkucat & razpag
From your experience, does line training period cause line drops in order to establish the best possible speed/s or SNRs?
Will appreciate your learned feedback before I panick!!! ;)
Regards,
Archie.
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Yes, Archie. It is possible that there may be the odd line-drop during the training period.
Only your ISP and BT Wholesale will know if you are currently in training mode.
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Hey,
Line drops will occur during training periods. Usually after a fault has been repaired you will find that the line will go back into training but this doesn't last as long as a new provide usually only 3 days at the most. What i tend to advise customers is that if your drop outs continue to occur after 5 days then to get back in touch as the fault has still not been repaired. Keep a close monitoring eye on this and make note of everything that happens like when the drop outs occur and what time and try and get some speed test results also during the 5 days.
Regards
Gary
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@ burakkucat, thank you and it is nice to know that. I'm not sure if my line is in training period yet, as I'm waiting for my ISP to respond.
@coolsnakeman, thank you for your feedback. Yes, it is a good idea to keep a record of drops. I had started that some time ago. Thanks, anyway.
Regards,
Archie.
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Hi Guys,
I have been away for 2 weeks. I am back and my ISP had arranged for co-op engineers from OR on my return. By the way, I had switched the router off during my absence for safety reasons.
The engineer visited yesterday and he was not aware that he was supposed to have co-op link with exchange. So, after discussions with his boss they decided to do another e-sde swap. The line stability lasted for 26 hours before a drop. Today it has been on for over 8 hours and still going. ISP is monitoring the line.
@ B*Cat, Is it possible to get step-by-step procedure of updateing the DG834GT firmware to DGTeam firmware in order to set it to ADSL 1 modulation (G.Dmt)? I had looked at DGTeam site and it frightened me to touch it for the update. Will appreciate your feedback on this matter.
As for the line satbility, I still have another day and half to go.
Regards,
Archie
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Welcome back, Archie. :)
Is it possible to get step-by-step procedure of updateing the DG834GT firmware to DGTeam firmware in order to set it to ADSL 1 modulation (G.Dmt)? I had looked at DGTeam site and it frightened me to touch it for the update. Will appreciate your feedback on this matter.
I can understand your concern but as I am using the official Netgear firmware on my DG834Gv5, I am not the best person to help with the updating to the DGTeam firmware. I suspect you will need to attract the attention of bbnovice, HPsauce or a similar firmware wizard! If no one responds as a result of this post, why not send either (or both) of them a PM?
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Thanks B*cat. I might just do that.
Archie.
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Hi
If I remmber correctly there was some problems with the the latest dgteam firware for the Netgear GT . Maybe its all OK now ?
Regards Jeff
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Thanks, jeffbb.
I had a look at the DGTeam site regarding updating the firmware for my DG834GT router, which currently has the latest firmware from Netgear. Because of the line instability I am experiencing, I thought may be by udating the firmware to DGTeam I might be able to use ADSL1 modulation and achieve some line stability.
The problem I faced was that I was scared to down load the updates because I am a novice with this sort of gadgets. :( Thus I am seeking step-by-step procedure to carry out such update/s.
Having said that, I have had stable connection for over 26 hours since the e-side change of pair of copper last Thursday and still holding. ;D
So, I believe the line is beginning to stabilise. I still have to wait for another 42 odd hours before passing a judgement. ;)
So, what do you think? I await your learned opinion. :)
Regards,
Archie.
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Hi
I must admit I have been running 2 netgear routers The DG834 GT and the Netgear DG834 v4. I have NOT changed the Firmware . I would be wary of changing firmware until your recognised line problems have been settled . Changing Firmware might cloud the issue .
Regards Jeff
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Hi,
I would strongly second what Jeff says. I would not risk firmware changes at this stage - you would be inserting another variable into your trouble shooting equation. The potential upsides do not match the possible downsides in my opinion, especially if you are not confident with undertaking a firmware upgrade anyway. Last thing you need at this stage is a bricked router.
Its interesting what Jeff says about having 2 Netgear routers, I also have 2. I have a spare Netgear DG834 (v4) with standard Netgear firmware which I bring into play to replace my usual router when I have to do any broadband trouble shooting. It also provides me with a backup should my usual router fail - as I work from home some days uptime is important to me.
As you know the DG834 does allow you to select the DSL mode. The DG834 is a good bit of kit which is now unfortunately obsolete, but you can still get hold of them from places like broadbandbuyer.co.uk for about £40. If you do go down that route I would recommend that you may SURE its a V4 (Broadcom) rather than any earlier version.
Regards bbnovice
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If you do go down that route I would recommend that you may SURE its a V4 (Broadcom) rather than any earlier version.
And not the later V5 (Conexant) version, which I have.
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Thank you jeffbb and bbnovice. :)
Your advice is appreciated and it does make great sense; and therefore, I will stay putt for time being. ;)
No doubt in future when I need some help you guys will be there for me. 8)
Regards,
Archie.
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Thanks B*cat; I shall bear that in mind.
Archie.
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Hi
quote If you do go down that route I would recommend that you may SURE its a V4 (Broadcom) rather than any earlier version.
Just seen a V4 on Ebay any one interested
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=150576216714
Good seller and picture of router is definitely a V4
Regards Jeff
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Having checked the link that Jeff has shown, I see the seller states the following --
Free UK Delivery
Next Day UK Delivery available
Fully refurbished, complete with all accessories and boxed
Upgraded to latest Netgear firmware and fully tested
This is a Netgear DG834G v4. This one of the most popular ADSL Modem Routers in the UK.
It has been upgraded to the latest Netgear firmware. (If you prefer DGTeam firmware, please let me know at checkout and I will flash it for you).
It has been fully tested on my own ADSL broadband and is in perfect working order.
It has set to default factory settings after upgrade and testing.
This will work great with most ADSL Internet Service Providers (i.e. through the phone line) in the UK, such as BT, Tiscali, Zen and Talk Talk. If you intend to use this on SKY UK broadband, you will need your SKY username and password (tools to find these out are available online) - alternatively, you should use a router with SKY firmware (see my ebay shop).
It is extremely easy to install, however if you need any help with setting this up, just let me know and I will be happy to help as I use the DG834GT myself. You can get me via email, Skype or on the telephone (see number below).
This is fully refurbished by myself personally and complete with all accessories & boxed (not the original box).
This is supplied with:
* The router itself - fully tested and guaranteed to be working
* A 3 pin UK power supply
* A RJ11 Modem Cable
* A RJ45 Patch Cable
* An ADSL filter with BT plug
* x2 vertical stands
* Netgear Resource CD (downloaded from Netgear website). Please note that the CD is not needed for installation as the router itself has it's own setup wizard.
Basic install information:
* Connect to phone line using RJ11 Modem cable via ADSL filter.
* Connect to your computer using the RJ45 Patch Cable.
* Connect the power supply.
* Open the web browser on your computer and type in http://192.168.0.1
* Login with the default login/password which is admin/password
* Use the setup wizard or enter your ISP info manually.
* Setup wireless encryption as desired.
More info on this router can be found on the Netgear web site:
http://www.netgear.co.uk/wireless_adslrouter_dg834g.php
I've emboldened the interesting line for you, Archie.
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@ jeffbb and B*cat
Thank you very much for your feedback and help on Netgear DG834 v4 router.
I think I will hang fire until line stability/instability has been established.
The line has been uninterupted for over 35 hours. About 37 hours to go.
Regards,
Archie.
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Hello All,
Just an update on my issue with frequent disconnects and my unstable line.
I have had several visits from OR engineers and eventually, in conjunction with my ISP, the OR engineer has done a e-side swap and my line has now stabilised, bearing in mind that I have a very long line, and now I am getting an occassional disconnect totally irrelevant to my in comming calls. The line stays connected for between 48 and 72 hours between disconnects, which I believe, is expected of a very long line.
I would like to thank you all for your valued advise and opinions. I know where to come if I do run into any difficulties.
Thank you all and it is appreciated.
Many regards,
Archie.
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You will unfortunately have the odd daily retrain Archie. Good news on the repair though. Have replied to your PM also. ;D
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I'm pleased to read your latest update, Archie and hope that the line will now be usable, within its limitations. :)
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Thank you razpag and burakkucat for your good wishes and your help on this thread. :angel: It is much appreciated. :)
Received your PM, Thanks razpag. I am keeping my fingers crossed for the line to behave. ;D
Many regards,
Archie.
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@razpag,
You were right, currently I am getting one drop a day; but the downstream and upstream speeds are still holding dispite the daily drop for as you said 'line retrain'.
Regards,
Archie
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Hi Guys,
Just an update on the issue.
It is worrying me as after about 6 weeks, the line is beginning to get unstable. The frequency of line drops is gradually increasing.
After last sort by OR engineer on 14th July, the line had behaved nicely. I could get stable line for 48 to 80 Hours; bearing in mind that I have a long line with line attanuation of 61.5 dB. I was quite happy with that. But recently I have started to get the line drop after about between 6 and 8 hours. :( This is worrying.
My router is connected to the master socket via BT's filtered faceplate on NTE5 and NO hardwire telephone extension wiring has been connected to the master socket. My desktop connects to internet via Wi-Fi adaptor (though it has low signal).
The question is: do I leave it for a few days and see if it settles or do I raise a fault with my ISP?
Your learned and valuable opinions will be appreciated.
Many regards,
Archie.
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Hi
quote But recently I have started to get the line drop after about between 6 and 8 hours. :( This is worrying.
Do you mean that the router is dropping every 6 to 8 hrs and resynching(router swiched on 24/7?) or is it dropping after running for 6 to 8 hrs ?
Regards Jeff
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Hmm . . . a little bit of clarification is needed, please, Archie.
Continuing on from Jeff's questions, do you mean that the modem/router is loosing sync with the DSLAM at the exchange or are you just loosing your PPPoA session with your ISP's server? The former will require investigation by OR, the latter by your ISP.
As to what you should do . . . ultimately it is your judgement call. :-X
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Do you mean that the router is dropping every 6 to 8 hrs and resynching(router swiched on 24/7?) or is it dropping after running for 6 to 8 hrs ?
Hello jeffbb,
Because, my router is in master socket and my desktop is way away, it is difficult to see the router lights. However, I look at my router's statistics and I find that my PPPoA session is lost and restarts automatically. The WLAN & LAN stay unaffected. My router is left on 24/7. I have copied the router statistics below, and I will appreciate your guidance.
do you mean that the modem/router is loosing sync with the DSLAM at the exchange or are you just loosing your PPPoA session with your ISP's server?
Hello burakkucat,
Please see the response to jeffbb above and here is the copy of my router's stastics:
System Up Time 392:22:40
Port Status TxPkts RxPkts Collisions Tx B/s Rx B/s Up Time
WAN PPPoA 63215 107770 0 593 9672 04:06:36
LAN 10M/100M 40101 7904 0 8 0 392:22:35
WLAN 11M/54M 1021485 809095 0 2512 289 132:39:20
ADSL Link Downstream Upstream
Connection Speed 3071 kbps 448 kbps
Line Attenuation 61.5 db 34.1 db
Noise Margin 6.8 db 18.8 db
Many regards,
Archie.
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Looking at your statistics:
U/S attenuation is ~55% of D/S attenuation. That's reasonable. Tick.
Attaining a D/S sync speed of 3071 kbps with a D/S attenuation of 61.5 dB. That's better than predicted. Tick.
D/S SNRM of 6.8 dB. That's reasonable. Tick.
U/S SNRM of 18.8 dB. That's suspicious when compared to the D/S value. Query.
I would not expect to see such a large variation between the two SNRMs. Some, perhaps up to 3 dB difference, but 12 dB ? :no: The only inference that I can currently make is that the lower frequencies (used by U/S) of your connection are being affected by some form of RFI / noise.
However, I can't rationalise why that should cause your PPPoA session to drop. Further thoughts are required. :hmm:
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Sorry to be argumentative BK, but it's quite normal for the upstream noise margin to be a lot higher than the downstream, because it's capped at quite a low speed. This isn't indicative of higher than normal noise in the upstream part - if the upstream noise margin were much lower, that would be indicative of higher noise.
The dropping PPPoA session could possibly be the result of temporary bursts of interference causing high error rates, but that's not so very likely. It might be a defect of the router, and it would be worth swapping to a different model to make sure about this. Or it could be caused by the ISP's equipment or the interface between the exchange and the ISP.
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@B*Cat & roseway,
I have been in touch with my ISP and they think that by increasing the D/S SNRM from 6 to 12 dB and with interleaving on, it may stabilise the PPPoA session. What do you guys think?
Having said that, I wish to convey roseway's thinking of ISP's equipement or interface between the exchange and the ISP to cause the PPPoA session to drop; if it is alright with you, roseway.
I suppose, I can temporarily borrow a router and see if that makes any difference. But the question is which one do I do first. Any thoughts?
Many regards,
Archie
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@Archie:
Increasing the target noise margin will reduce error rates, so it would deal with one of the possible causes of the PPPoA dropouts. But it will also lead to a significant reduction in your connection speed (down from ~3000 to ~2000 kbps perhaps).
I'm quite happy for you to repeat anything I've said here to your ISP.
If you can borrow a different router to try out, that would be my first choice to try. Some routers (e.g. Netgear DGN3500) seem to have a real problem with PPPoA dropouts.
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Sorry to be argumentative BK
Why, Eric, you are not. I promise not to aim a paw swipe in your direction. :)
it's quite normal for the upstream noise margin to be a lot higher than the downstream, because it's capped at quite a low speed.
I can only say that I have never observed that. I have seen the U/S SNRM a little higher than that of D/S but never "a lot". :no:
This isn't indicative of higher than normal noise in the upstream part - if the upstream noise margin were much lower, that would be indicative of higher noise.
I agree with you there. Obviously I did not correctly type what I had intended to express, earlier this morning.
The dropping PPPoA session could possibly be the result of temporary bursts of interference causing high error rates, but that's not so very likely. It might be a defect of the router, and it would be worth swapping to a different model to make sure about this. Or it could be caused by the ISP's equipment or the interface between the exchange and the ISP.
I see and now understand.
@Archie -- If you are going to test with an alternative modem/router, I would suggest that you purchase a 2Wire 2700HGV (a.k.a. a BT Business Hub) via eBay. (The rest of the forum regulars issue a collective grin, knowing full-well that the b*cat was bound to type that suggestion.)
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@Archie:
If you can borrow a different router to try out, that would be my first choice to try. Some routers (e.g. Netgear DGN3500) seem to have a real problem with PPPoA dropouts.
Currently I have Netgear DG834GT Router and I was thinking of Actiontec ADSL2+ wireless router, the one I had used earlier to test the reliability of PPPoA session.
Having said that, my ISP has already changed the D/S SNRM from 6 to 12db and has enabled the interleaving. Yes, you are right. My D/S IP Profile on BT Speed Test has dropped from 2.5Mbps to 2.0Mbps, but achieved the speed of 1.9Mbps, which I can live with. The U/S speed has reduced but very little.
Shall I leave it until my ISP can establish if the stability of PPPoA has been achieved using their solution.
Regards,
Archie.
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@Archie -- If you are going to test with an alternative modem/router, I would suggest that you purchase a 2Wire 2700HGV (a.k.a. a BT Business Hub) via eBay. (The rest of the forum regulars issue a collective grin, knowing full-well that the b*cat was bound to type that suggestion.)
Thanks for your suggestion of using 2wire 2700HGV. Much appreciated.
For reasons given to roseway, above, I think we hold fire for time being until my ISP give up with raised hands to surrender!!!. ;)
Regards,
Archie.
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it's quite normal for the upstream noise margin to be a lot higher than the downstream, because it's capped at quite a low speed.
I can only say that I have never observed that. I have seen the U/S SNRM a little higher than that of D/S but never "a lot". :no:
Archie is (like me) on a BT IPStream connection which has the upstream speed capped at 448 kbps. If it were not capped it would connect at a much higher speed with a noise margin of 6 dB, in the same way as your own connection does. But because it's capped, there's a lot of spare capacity which manifests itself as a large noise margin.
Just for comparison, my own noise margins are currently 5.4 dB down, 23.0 dB up.
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my ISP has already changed the D/S SNRM from 6 to 12db and has enabled the interleaving. Yes, you are right. My D/S IP Profile on BT Speed Test has dropped from 2.5Mbps to 2.0Mbps, but achieved the speed of 1.9Mbps, which I can live with. The U/S speed has reduced but very little.
Shall I leave it until my ISP can establish if the stability of PPPoA has been achieved using their solution.
If you can still make use of the connection in that configuration then, yes, allowing some time for statistics to be gathered will be a good idea.
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Archie is (like me) on a BT IPStream connection which has the upstream speed capped at 448 kbps. If it were not capped it would connect at a much higher speed with a noise margin of 6 dB, in the same way as your own connection does. But because it's capped, there's a lot of spare capacity which manifests itself as a large noise margin.
Just for comparison, my own noise margins are currently 5.4 dB down, 23.0 dB up.
b*cat, having just learnt something, bows towards Eric and says "Ah so!".
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Hi
@BC quote : U/S attenuation is ~55% of D/S attenuation. That's reasonable. Tick.
Sorry to be pedantic but the difference is NOT 55% . Remember that db values are logarithmic .Each 3db = a doubling of the value .
so the the difference between 61.5 and 34.1 is actually ~ 1/500 of the DS attenuation .
a line with say 30db DS and 15 db US would be ~1/32 of the DS attenuation
Regards Jeff
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If you can still make use of the connection in that configuration then, yes, allowing some time for statistics to be gathered will be a good idea.
At the moment things are acceptable. If things take a nosedive, I shall sceam. ;)
Regards,
Archie.
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But because it's capped, there's a lot of spare capacity which manifests itself as a large noise margin.
Just for comparison, my own noise margins are currently 5.4 dB down, 23.0 dB up.
I did not know that spare capacity can manifest as a large noise margin. You learn every day. Thanks for this info,roseway.
Regards,
Archie.
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@BC quote : U/S attenuation is ~55% of D/S attenuation. That's reasonable. Tick.
Sorry to be pedantic but the difference is NOT 55% . Remember that db values are logarithmic .Each 3db = a doubling of the value .
so the the difference between 61.5 and 34.1 is actually ~ 1/500 of the DS attenuation .
a line with say 30db DS and 15 db US would be ~1/32 of the DS attenuation
b*cat appreciates precision, Jeff.
Perhaps I should say, in similar circumstances, that the unit-less numerical value of the U/S attenuation is ~55% of the unit-less numerical value of the D/S attenuation.