Kitz Forum

Broadband Related => ADSL Issues => Topic started by: jid on June 05, 2008, 04:47:02 PM

Title: No Connection
Post by: jid on June 05, 2008, 04:47:02 PM
Hi kitz,

I haven't had an internet connection for two days now, and have reported it to my isp, Tiscal.

However, I have found that the router just cannot sync with the exchange?

What could be causing this? As my router is working fine, and have tried another socket,filter and modem etc?

Thanks

jid
Title: Re: No Connection
Post by: kitz on June 05, 2008, 04:56:37 PM
In view of your other thread (http://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php?topic=2083.msg66492#msg66492) in which you explained that your speeds have been reducing, it looks like you have an actual fault on the phone line. 

They have already tried to blame your equipment and you are connected at the master socket (but old style)  then I think theres no alternative but to insist that tiscali arrange for a bt engineer to test your line.  Insist that you are connected at the master socket and until fairly recently you used to be able to sync at 6.5Mbps and suspect degradation of the line.

Before you do that it may be an idea if you can borrow someone elses router - just to eliminate the fact that its not the router at fault.




Title: Re: No Connection
Post by: jid on June 05, 2008, 07:49:14 PM
Hi kitz,

Thanks for replying. I have tried with my USB modem with same results.

I have been told that a 2nd line engineer will be calling tomorrow (phone) to run some line checks, as they have identified that no signals are being sent from the exchange through my line.

Is this common of an LLU line?

Thanks for the quick reply.

jid
Title: Re: No Connection
Post by: kitz on June 05, 2008, 08:02:18 PM
>> I have been told that a 2nd line engineer will be calling tomorrow (phone) to run some line checks, as they have identified that no signals are being sent from the exchange through my line.

Thats just their way of saying you cant sync to the exchange.  Cant believe youre on your 2/3rd day without sync and they are waiting till tomorrow to get 2nd line support to call you back. :/

I'm not exactly sure what line checks they are going to do..  If you dont have sync then...  afaik they cant do any of their standard line checks.
It needs passing to BTw, for a BT engineer to check.
Title: Re: No Connection
Post by: Ezzer on June 05, 2008, 08:21:21 PM
"they've identified there are no signals being sent on the line"

Wha' ?

I love some comments from ISP's....

No signal ? either it's a faulty card or port at the exchange which is normaly determined by clipping on at the exchange. With LLU equipment then I suppose if there is a card with nothing but faulty ports then the ISP coild deduce a faulty card. In which case a transmission engineer at the exchange.

How many times do i get a fault where the problem is the end users equipment or internal wiring yet the ISP has catagoricaly said the the end user there IS a fault on the line..... but no there isn't   >:(

With an LLU I would check sync at the mdf in the exchange, then stick a 60db load on and retest to make sure this is ok. If there's no sync on the mdf then it's a case of clipping on the llu output to make sure it's not the wiring between there and the mdf. beyond that It's up to the llu as to what to do next. with BTw equipment then it's straight to a lift ? shift.

If all is ok at the exchange then it's the NTE test socket and work outwards from there depending on what is found: either have I got sync and then the line stats
Title: Re: No Connection
Post by: jid on June 06, 2008, 01:55:45 PM
I have finally got my connection back today!

I was called earlier and wasn't in so they will be calling back at 4pm, so I will find out the issue then.

However the speeds are still quite pathetic! Sync: 4768kbps?

And the SNR is now lower than ever! 4dB!!!

jid
Title: Re: No Connection
Post by: jid on June 06, 2008, 08:53:59 PM
They called earlier and all they told me was that there was a problem with the exchange sending signals through my phone line?

So basically there was a line fault!

However, my slow speeds still remain!

They have also told me that my line profile looks fine at their end and are running tests to rule out the exchange as the problem.

I have asked them if they will tell me what my line profile is.

Thanks

jid
Title: Re: No Connection
Post by: jid on June 07, 2008, 03:20:20 PM
Hi kitz,

I have just turned my router on to find that my upstream SNR has gone up to 29dB!

Now meaning that my sync speed up is only 256kbps :-\

I guess this is something to do with my profile setting or something, although I am not aware that they have adjusted my profile in any way?

You advice would be most appreciated

Thanks

jid
Title: Re: No Connection
Post by: roseway on June 07, 2008, 03:38:16 PM
Is that your upstream sync speed? If so, it's probably the case that there was a lot of noise on the line at the time of the last re-sync, causing it to connect at a lower speed than normal; now the noise has subsided again, giving you a large upstream noise margin. This does sound very much like a line fault.
Title: Re: No Connection
Post by: jid on June 07, 2008, 03:53:47 PM
Hi roseway,

Thanks for the reply.

I am in contact with Tiscali about this issue regarding the slow speeds and poor SNR rates etc.

And their Forums team, who I am in contact with, are going to be running some tests at the exchange to see if there are any problems there.

Although I do have a connection now, there are times when it looses sync a lot.

If they find no probs I will ask them to get a BTw engineer to run some line tests as recommended by kitz.

Thanks

jid
Title: Re: No Connection
Post by: jid on June 10, 2008, 04:20:44 PM
Hi kitz,

Just to update you, I have spoken to tiscali and they have told me that I am on an  8MB Adaptive Line Profile?

They are now claiming that my slow speeds are being caused by that causing the line line to sync at its most stable rate, although before, I was easily downloading at 6.5mbps.

I do still believe that this is an Exchange/Line fault and that it needs to be rectified.

You advice would be most appreciated! ;D

Regards

jid :)
Title: Re: No Connection
Post by: Mr_CheeZe on June 13, 2008, 05:42:35 PM
you probably still have an underlying line fault.
do you have a modern type nte5 with removable frontplate?
if not, theres a good chance it is very old and probably needs changing.
plug your (ordinary, non wireless)fone into each of the sockets in your house in turn, dial 17070 and then dial 2 for 'quiet line test'. listen.
if you hear any crackling or buzzing, it is probably affecting your broadband.
Title: Re: No Connection
Post by: jid on June 16, 2008, 01:55:46 PM
Hi,

BT are going to be doing a Config test at the Exchange tomorrow evening so at least I am getting somewhere.

Yes I do have the old type master box and may mention that if the exchange check doesn't improve anything.

As I have mentioned previously, the speeds were great before the switch to Tiscali LLU so I have ruled out my equipment and internal wiring.

Thanks

jid
Title: Re: No Connection
Post by: jid on June 18, 2008, 05:35:32 PM
Well I am still waiting for the results of the check at the exchange as my broadband hasn't changed at all so there still must be a problem somewhere?

Is there a possibility that this is still a line fault as I asked them to put me on a 7meg profile which they did but then apparently the ADSL wouldn't sync, as I wasn't in I couldn't monitor it.

jid
Title: Re: No Connection
Post by: jid on June 19, 2008, 08:02:23 PM
kitz

I am now beginning to think that my problems with the broadband speeds are seriously down to the incorrect setting of my line profile that is apparently 'Adaptive' 8mb?

I have asked Tiscali to put me to a 7meg profile which apparently didn't sync with the exchange and am still awaiting results from a Config test at my exchange.

Could you possibly explain what they will check at the exchange and why possibly my line wouldn't sync on a 7meg profile which I must have been on before going to their LLU network to be able to achieve speeds upto 6.5meg?

Thanks

jid
Title: Re: No Connection
Post by: kitz on June 20, 2008, 09:55:28 AM
Sorry Ive not been around for several days..  and am amazed believe that Tiscali are still not looking into this properly for you and passing the book.

The low sync speed and high SNR, is pretty certain proof that at some point youve had a bad sync reconnect probably caused through the line fault.

Maxdsl and tiscali LLU is rate adaptive, so that your line should always sync at the best speed it can, unless its been capped.

It seems rather strange to me that they keep saying again and again that "they will be running tests" when all the symptoms seem to be that it should be an adsl engineer running tests locally.


>> They are now claiming that my slow speeds are being caused by that causing the line line to sync at its most stable rate,

Your line will always fluctuate...  but Non syncs and syncs of 256kbps are not right.
It would appear that Tiscali arent listening.... and IMHO trying to fob you off Im afraid. :(

I know what my own personal reaction would be to this situation, and that would be something along the lines of..
 "My line was perfectly fine and stable at 7Mb..  I have a 30dB attenuation line and all was fine until you (Tiscali) messed with the line and LLU'd it. 
A line that on occasion wont sync at all or syncs at 256Kbps is not acceptable. Either you sort it in the next 7 days... or I want my MAC key so I can go to an ISP that will sort it."
Title: Re: No Connection
Post by: jid on June 20, 2008, 04:17:34 PM
Hi kitz,

Many thanks for the reply.

They have sent an Engineer to the exchange as they have acknowledged as I kept on telling them that there must be a fault locally.

I think the next port of call will be them sending an engineer to my house to Run even more checks and to tell me what I know already, that my line Can support 6.5mbps or possibly a higher than 448kbps upstream rate.

I have just been notified that my Exchange (Bridgend) is getting Be Unlimited/O2 installed on the 30th of June and they estimate I can recieve pretty good speeds on their ADSL2+ network.

But that will be a last resort.

I also know that my Line hasn't been capped, as it was fine before LLU came along >:D

So with regards to the speed issue, is it possible that there is still a fault on my line or that my Line Profile needs a kick up the backside? ???

I have had these problems before, way back in the days of 512k broadband! Where they refused that they were the ones to blame and I think that a Letter is in order if the Forums team cannot resolve this, which I am quite positive that they will.

Thanks and any more advice would be most appreciated!

Regards

jid
Title: Re: No Connection
Post by: kitz on June 20, 2008, 04:34:11 PM
Obviously we cant say for certain but theres several of us on here who have commented about your problems..  (2 of them being BT adsl engineers)..  and we all seem to agree that it sounds like theres a fault on your line that can only be properly investigated by a visit by a BT engineer.

As regards to the line profile... no.. since that wouldnt stop you being able to attain sync and give you the sync of 256kb.

It could be deterioration of the line.. or it could be a faulty line card at the exchange.. or oxidisation of a joint etc etc.. and its one of those things that needs to be looked at locally to rule out several possibilities. :/
Title: Re: No Connection
Post by: jid on June 20, 2008, 05:45:03 PM
Hi kitz,

Once again, thanks for your reply.

When you say an engineer will need to visit locally, do you mean my actual property or just the Exchange?

So basically I need to keep telling Tiscali that I believe that there is a line fault causing problems on my line.

Thing is, how could have these suddenly have appeared, would the switch to LLU have caused this?

Thanks Again

jid
Title: Re: No Connection
Post by: kitz on June 20, 2008, 06:04:12 PM
>>  When you say an engineer will need to visit locally, do you mean my actual property or just the Exchange?


afaik it depends on the type of fault call that the ISP puts in and where the engineer thinks its best to start.
Ezzer is probably the best one to comment on that.. so I'll let him reply better than I could. :)


>> Thing is, how could have these suddenly have appeared, would the switch to LLU have caused this?

A co-incidence spell of bad or wet weather could have caused a fault to occur.
or more likely if the timing is exactly with the transfer of your line to LLU.. its more probably a fault on the line card in the dslam.

Just one thing I cant recall if I asked you to double check.. and that was your router settings are set as follows?

Quote
Protocol/Encapsulation :- PPPoA (PPP over ATM)
Multiplexing method: VC-BASED or VC-Mux
(On some routers the above 2 settings may be combined as "PPPoA VC-Mux".)
VPI = 0
VCI = 38
DSL Standard: G.dmt
Security Protocol: CHAP
Title: Re: No Connection
Post by: jid on June 20, 2008, 06:10:06 PM
Hi kitz,

Yes the router settings are as you mentioned and thanks for bringing that up.

Another post has mentioned faulty line card in the exchange so this could be a possibility.

Regards

jid
Title: Re: No Connection
Post by: Ezzer on June 20, 2008, 06:24:48 PM
If a broadband fault is passed to Openreach then it will come out one of 2 ways.

Firstly and typicaly to a broadband cse then the fault can be looked at from the idf, (or where the broadband signal comes out on the frame in the exchange) up to the end users property

Secondly If the job is pinned to a frames engineer then the line has a basic check for correct jumpering (is it wired up correctly) and does it sync. Usually a frames engineer will get such a job if a lift and shift is pending which couldn't be done for some reason when a lift and shift was identified as a requirement previously.

If a cse gets the fault then the first thing is to check what if any conditions lie on the line (the essential state of the wires which is the test for faults effecting pstn (normal telephony) and go for this if anything is detected first. Then check the broadband to see what that's upto.
Title: Re: No Connection
Post by: jid on June 20, 2008, 07:00:30 PM
Hi Ezzer,

Thanks for clarifying that.

I will wait and see what Tiscali can tell me regarding the Config check they had ran at the exchange, which I guess is making sure that everything is plugged in correctly and no Line Cards are causing problems?

Regards

jid
Title: Re: No Connection
Post by: jid on June 20, 2008, 09:03:51 PM
Hi kitz,

It looks like I will not be getting a reply from Tiscali until Monday now so I will keep you informed on my findings.

Just thought I would let you know what I posted on my Thread earlier:-


Quote
Any update from BT?

What I can’t get my head around is that my line was perfectly fine and stable at 6.5mb. I have a 30dB attenuation line and all was fine until I upgraded to your Phone service.

So my lay persons view is that something has been disturbed during the upgrade of my line?

thanks

jid

Title: Re: No Connection
Post by: kitz on June 20, 2008, 09:16:41 PM
Quote
I will wait and see what Tiscali can tell me regarding the Config check they had ran at the exchange, which I guess is making sure that everything is plugged in correctly and no Line Cards are causing problems?

I think thats the thing thats confusing all of us - Tiscali still keep saying that they are running checks.
There is a limit of what checks the ISP can perform and then it should be passed on to BT..
Things like the line card need to be checked at the exchange by an engineer.  :(

Please do keep us informed and I hope that someone actions your ticket pretty soon.
Title: Re: No Connection
Post by: Ezzer on June 20, 2008, 11:03:08 PM
The card would be checked if several ports had become faulty and had lift & shifts all on the same card by a transmission engineer. This would only come up directly on a dsl fault of yours if you needed a lift and shift aand there were no avalable spare ports at that time (very unusual occurence).

(although saying that weds I had a weird fault which I've never come across before. and was a new one to the chaps I spoke to at BTw to which I could'nt do any more and thats refered back to BTw to sort, Hope this was a one off) ???
Title: Re: No Connection
Post by: jid on June 21, 2008, 11:13:23 AM
Hi kitz and Ezzer,

Thanks for both of your replies.

Of what I have been told, BT have been asked to visit the exchange as I asked Tiscali if they would rule out any faults in the exchange and as I have previously said I am still awaiting the outcome of those checks.

Thanks

jid
Title: Re: No Connection
Post by: jid on June 23, 2008, 07:01:24 PM
Hi kitz,

Just thought that I would let you know that I am still awaiting the results of the Exchange check from Tiscali.

The Config Test was supposed to have been completed by 17/06/2008 by BT.

Its the 23rd and am still awaiting the results!!!

Although my downstream SNR was at 11dB for most of the day today, it has dropped to 7dB now where it will now stay for the rest of the evening until I turn off the router.

My upstream SNR is a pathetic 29dB which I am guessing is causing the Upstream Sync to be 256kbps?

These are my line attenuation stats which I understand are very good and should allow me to achieve much higher Sync speeds than 4992kbps?

Down Atten: 30dB
Upstr Atten: 16dB

Regards and thanks for the advice

jid
Title: Re: No Connection
Post by: kitz on June 23, 2008, 07:17:55 PM
>> My upstream SNR is a pathetic 29dB

Thats good - the higher the better.  So why the 256k I dont know..  you could try a resync.

It would be interesting to see all the stats together immediately after a resync.This is the only time that we can take a guess at what your Target SNR is set at.
However due to the fact that your SNR has now dropped.. perhaps right now is not the best time to do this.. and its probably best doing this during the day.

Your attenuation is ok (the lower the better).  I'd expect a 30db line to sync at around 7.5 to 8Mb depending if interleaving has been applied.. and also depending on what target SNR is set.
Title: Re: No Connection
Post by: jid on June 23, 2008, 07:38:17 PM
Hi kitz,

Thanks for the reply.

After a resync, the stats look something like this:-

SNR Down: 9dB
SNR Up     : 31dB

Line Atten: 30dB down          16dB up
Sync Down: 4960kbps
Sync Up     : 256kbps

Just lost sync, SNR Down went to 0dB and then had to resync!

I have tried endless resyncs to try and rectify the Upstream & downstream Sync but it hasn't made any difference.

When you say the higher the SNR, do you mean if my SNR Down was say, 12dB, then I should be able to achieve high speeds.


Also, regarding the Interleave, I have asked them about whether it is switched on or not, but they are yet to come back to me. Do you think that if I have it switched on, would I be able to gain any more speed out of my connection or not, as I think i was switched on before, although I don't know.

Is asking Tiscali the only way of finding out if interleave is on or not or is there an alternative way?

Thanks again

jid
Title: Re: No Connection
Post by: kitz on June 24, 2008, 09:12:08 AM
SNR (Signal to Noise Ratio) fluctuates throughout the day depending upon local conditions..  the higher your SNR Margin, then the stronger the signal is.  With MaxDSL, when you sync up, the DLM at the exchange will give you the highest speed it can depending upon what your Target SNR is set at.
Whilst Target SNR and SNR Margin are related - they are not the same thing.

Looking at your stats after a reboot, the DLM has your Target SNR set at 9dB.  Therefore upon syncing the DLM will give you the best speed it can whilst giving you an SNRMargin of 9dB as a "buffer zone".
Obviously after sync up - your SNR Margin will continue to fluctuate.

Theres more info about SNR, SNR Margin and the target SNR - An explanation of SNR and SNR Margin (http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/linestats.htm).

>> I have tried endless resyncs to try and rectify the Upstream & downstream Sync

As mentioned above your (downstream) target SNR is set at 9dB.  This is fairly normal so not too much you can do about that.   However the 256 kbps is odd and it looks like Tiscali for some reason may have limited this on one of their profiles.  Thats not a typical BTw upstream sync and looks like Tiscali for some strange reason have limited it.

Hmmm - stop!
 - Ive just checked Tiscali LLU profiles (http://www.kitz.co.uk/isp/tiscali_llu.htm)

>> Sync Down: 4960kbps

Just checking - Could that figure by any chance actually be 4096?
I think we may have just found (well at least 1 of 3 possibilities) which profile Tiscali have put you on.  WTH tiscali have limited your upstream Ive no idea and put you on that profile, since your upstream looks fine.

I could be wrong - but it looks like to me that tiscali are perhaps buggering about changing profiles seeing if that will correct your fault rather than actually passing on to BT.
Whats the stability of your line like atm?

>> I have asked them about whether it is switched on or not,.... /snip/... is there an alternative way

They should easily be able to tell you..  but most routers will tell you somewhere.  Which router are you using?
Title: Re: No Connection
Post by: jid on June 24, 2008, 04:01:28 PM
Hi kitz,

Thanks once again for the reply!

I am using a D Link DSL G624T and cannot find anything on Interleave or if it is on or off.

I always did have a low Upstream speed before, as when I was getting speeds of 6.5mbps, the Upstream was only 241kbps via thinkbroadband.

The profile couldn't be limiting the speed, as I have synced at 5184 today?

Do you think that it is worth mentioning again that the Upstream has all of a sudden dropped from 448kbps, to 256kbps?

Would be worthwhile asking them to turn it on, if it is off, to see if my speeds will improve, or shall I wait for their result from the exchange config check?

Atm, the line looks like this, last resync, 11am this morning.

SNR Down: 10dB (was just 8dB, refresh of stats updated)
SNR UP     : 27dB
Atten        : 30dB
Sync Down: 5184 kbps
Sync Up     : 256kbps

Thanks Again

jid
Title: Re: No Connection
Post by: kitz on June 24, 2008, 08:26:09 PM
Hi

The

Code: [Select]

4096 High SNR  4096  256      Adaptive:Fixed
4096 High-Interleave 4096 256   Adaptive:Fixed

profiles are fixed at 256 upstream yet allow the downstream to change but with a top limit of 4096.


On your old account the upstream may have been fixed at 288, which is what the upstream speed was prior to BTw bringing out adslmax. Tiscali LLU also has an upstream profile of up to 896 kbps which is fully adaptive. 

However your now sync of 5184 puts paid to the theory that you are on one of the above profiles.  TBH Im really not sure what Tiscali are playing at - but it would appear that they have limited a line to 256 which is capable of more.

>>> Do you think that it is worth mentioning again that the Upstream has all of a sudden dropped from 448kbps, to 256kbps

I would!  Theres no reason I can see why your line should be limited to 256 up - theres plenty of spare SNRM for more.  Make sure that you mention it appears to be constantly fixed at 256 no matter how many resyncs and despite the fact you have plenty of spare SNR Margin to cope .
Title: Re: No Connection
Post by: jid on June 25, 2008, 02:04:04 PM
Hi kitz,

I have just come home to lunch to find that my broadband stats are looking much better!

They now look like this:-

Down SNR: 12dB           Up SNR: 24dB
Line Atten: 30dB           
Down sync:6112kbps       Up sync: 448kbps (woohoo!)

I still do feel that the line is capable than much more than this, I this sync will mean that I can only download at about 5meg?

They have told me that they refreshed the line profile which told them that the line was syncing at 6.3meg.

Regards

jid
Title: Re: No Connection
Post by: jid on June 26, 2008, 05:39:59 PM
Hi kitz,

Thought I would let you know that I have now been told that there is nothing more that they can do 'apparently', as checks at the exchange identified no fault with the configuration.  :no:

Could you have a look at my stats since they updated my Line Profile, as I am sure that the line is capable of more than this:-
Down SNR: 12dB           Up SNR: 22dB
Line Atten: 30dB           
Down sync:5888kbps       Up sync: 448kbps

I have now noticed the downstream snr is always at 12dB but may now and then drop to 9dB.
Also after a resync it connects on 13dB almost all of the time and then drops to 12dB.

I have asked them to do checks to show them that my line is capable of more and if they still cannot sort it out I think that I will have to write a letter to them with a log of all the speeds I have had since the upgrade.

I feel as if I am not getting the speeds I should be getting for the stats of my line as you have previously told me, and that I am not getting what I am paying for. >:(

You advice is most appreciated.

Regards

jid

Title: Re: No Connection
Post by: roseway on June 26, 2008, 06:42:11 PM
With an attenuation of only 30 dB your line should be capable of more. Clearly the target noise margin is set at 12 dB, which will reduce the connection speed somewhat, but this will have been done to stabilise an unstable connection. I don't have time at the moment to look back over the entire thread, but if you've done all you can to optimise your own internal wiring setup then it's probably best to leave things alone for a few days to see how it goes. I rather think that you won't get far by nagging BT at this stage.
Title: Re: No Connection
Post by: jid on June 26, 2008, 07:16:39 PM
Thanks for that.

The thing is, the broadband is now loosing sync a lot in the evenings, and I mean a lot.

Only since they have 'refreshed' the profile.

I will be mentioning this to them tomorrow.

Thanks again

jid
Title: Re: No Connection
Post by: kitz on June 26, 2008, 11:58:30 PM
Thats alil  bit more like it!
But like you say - it should really be capable of a bit more.

>> I have now noticed the downstream snr is always at 12dB

If after every resync its always around 12dB , they've obviously put you on a 12dB profile. However it is usual for the SNR to vary thereafter  until the next resync

I think unfortunately Tiscali are still trying delay tactics playing with your profiles, rather then getting an adsl engineer out to look for a fault on the line :/

>> there is nothing more that they can do 'apparently',

As mentioned ages ago - they seem to be doing all the tweaking at the exchange..  and havent actually got BT involved yet?
Title: Re: No Connection
Post by: jid on June 28, 2008, 12:23:23 PM
Thanks for the reply kitz,

I will talk to them a bit more about it next week but if they still can't do anything I will be writing a letter to them.

Regards

jid
Title: Re: No Connection
Post by: kitz on June 28, 2008, 02:58:48 PM
Good luck jid
Hope they do pull their finger out.
Title: Re: No Connection
Post by: jid on June 30, 2008, 04:03:16 PM
Yep I do too!

Thanks again kitz and to everyone else for your advice. It is most appreciated. :)

I will keep you updated ;D

Regards

jid
Title: Re: No Connection
Post by: roseway on June 30, 2008, 04:54:48 PM
Good luck jid :)
Title: Re: No Connection
Post by: Ezzer on June 30, 2008, 08:18:43 PM
The thing to remeber about getting your profile reset by the isp is that the profile changed via the exchange for a reason, and unless the problem which caused it in the first place has been resolved, then resetting the profile can easly cause the drop of sync's which you seem to be suffering from.

You don't ride a bike at full belt if your still on wet cobbles, your liable to fall off. the dlm is acting like a break to keep the connection safe, sounds as if you really need an engineer to check things out, so with the analogy, put your bike on a nice smooth dry road  ;D
Title: Re: No Connection
Post by: ailema on July 01, 2008, 09:48:49 AM
me here when it rains and windy i got no connection very very rude grrrrrrrrr
Title: Re: No Connection
Post by: jid on July 03, 2008, 03:59:44 PM
Hi kitz,

I have had an update from Tiscali today and they have told me that they are running even MORE tests on the line!

Are there anymore to run!? They must have covered them all by now at lease twice!

Regards

jid
Title: Re: No Connection
Post by: kitz on July 03, 2008, 04:46:17 PM
Quote
I have had an update from Tiscali today and they have told me that they are running even MORE tests on the line!

That is ridiculous..  Its over a month and they are still playing around.
I think I now what my own re-action would be at this point :/ 


Theyve had more than enough time to sort it.
As Ezzer (who is a BT engineer) says  "unless the problem which caused it in the first place has been resolved, then resetting the profile can easly cause the drop of sync's which you seem to be suffering from".

Sorry but they are just messing you around now and doing anything to avoid calling out an engineer  :'(
You have been very patient so far, so perhaps a "gentle prod" saying something along the lines of

"You have had over one month to sort this problem.  Due to your failure to progress the fault and you not being able to provide me with satisfactory service, I hereby request that you release me from any contract and provide me with my MAC key without penalty so I can take my account to an ISP willing to escalate and resolve my line fault. "

(obviously Im not aware if youre in a contract but if you are make sure you say without penalty)
You could if you wish  give them another 7 days and say that if the fault is not resolved within the next 7 days then you will expect your MAC without penalty blah blah blah
Title: Re: No Connection
Post by: jid on July 03, 2008, 06:34:13 PM
Hi kitz,

I have just reinstated Sky and am very tempted to leave Tiscali BB and Talk and pop over to Sky!

However I will most likely need to get the BT line reconnected and that will cost an absolute fortune.

One question, their 16meg package uses ADSL2 does it?

According to the SkyUser checker I should be able to get speeds between 15meg - 16meg on my 30dB atten line?

Thanks

jid
Title: Re: No Connection
Post by: Drefsab on July 03, 2008, 07:27:58 PM
Sky actually use ADSL2+ but just dont have line profiles for customers that sync above 16mbit, this is actually a nice change as is a more realistic sync rate than selling an upto 24mbit package that almost no one will ever see.
Title: Re: No Connection
Post by: kitz on July 03, 2008, 09:54:16 PM
>> According to the SkyUser checker I should be able to get speeds between 15meg - 16meg on my 30dB atten line?

Hmmmm 

http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/max_speed_calc.htm
Title: Re: No Connection
Post by: jid on July 04, 2008, 04:32:32 PM
Ah,

Sorry, the SkyUser must use the Sync Rates then?

13meg is better than 3!!!

I am currently synced at 4567kbps with a 9dB snr margin.

I swear there must be a fault as this is rubbish for my line, as you and others have spent time and time again!

Regards

Jamie
Title: Re: No Connection
Post by: kitz on July 04, 2008, 07:56:08 PM
Naw the checker says you should sync at around 15-16 Mb, - we both come to the same conclusion on that.. but your actual throughput after allowing for overheads (real speed) would be around 13.5Mb.


The hmmmm  was for another reason
reminds self to get rid of the javascript and code in php :/
Title: Re: No Connection
Post by: jid on July 10, 2008, 04:29:43 PM
Hi kitz,

Thought I would update you, and it isn't good news  :(

This is what I have been told today:-
Quote
Hi,

We have performed thorough tests on your line and the results show nothing wrong with it. There is nothing further we can do with this.

I don't really know what to do know?

Could I cancel and go to Sky?

Or would I need to cancel and then pay a fortune to BT to reconnect my line, and then go to Sky?

I feel that they just haven't done enough?

Regards

jid
Title: Re: No Connection
Post by: kitz on July 11, 2008, 01:06:05 PM
>> Or would I need to cancel and then pay a fortune to BT to reconnect my line,

I didnt realise that tiscali had your phone line too :/
The cost involved in going back to BT is expensive and what a lot of people dont realise when the FMP LLU providers take over the broadband and line.

It may be worthwhile ringing up BT and asking if they can do a deal for bringing the phone line back to BT.  Aside from that I believe Plusnet is about the cheapest for bringing back phone to BT, but then that would mean Plusnet for adsl too.

I'm not sure what to advise now since the cost has to be factored in and therefore it leaves you a bit stuck, therefore a choice that only you can make.

I dont feel that tiscali have done enough on this for you, and unfortunately your experience has been just another example of why so many rate tiscali as amongst the worst ISP.

You obviously have a fault somewhere that needs looking into and all tiscali seem to be doing is passing you from pillar to post.

Are you sure that tiscali fully have your phone line?
I'll pass you a link via PM for something Im working on.
Title: Re: No Connection
Post by: jid on July 11, 2008, 03:56:21 PM
Hi,

Yes I do have Tiscali Max Broadband with Anytime Talk II which includes Line Rental.

The BT 1571 has been removed and my line has been fully taken over by Tiscali.

I looked at the 'thing' you sent and it said exactly, No Info in DB.

Hence why I am convinced this is something to do with the switch to their LLU service.

I am now going to be writing a letter to them regarding this and will be mentioning 30dB line and that I am convinced there is a line fault somewhere, if they still will not do anything, I will have to consider another provider or maybe going back to BT and getting another Broadband service such as O2.

Regards

jid

Many thanks for the PM, I will take a look now  ;D

Regards

jid
Title: Re: No Connection
Post by: Ezzer on July 11, 2008, 04:36:51 PM
This thread reminds me of this radio4 broadcast on the now show

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gGibVROSPr8
Title: Re: No Connection
Post by: kitz on July 11, 2008, 04:50:54 PM
>>  it said exactly, No Info in DB.

Youre on Full Metallic Path LLU, which means that both the line and adsl is fully owned by Tiscali, so there will be a fee to move elsewhere as BT will have to take ownership of the line again.

I wanted to make sure since some ISPs will do all the line billing etc, but using something called WLR (http://www.btwholesale.com/pages/static/Products/Voice/Wholesale_Calls.html), but its still a "BT line" and therefore easier to move back.  For eg my mum moved back from Sky WLR to BT and it didnt cost her anything.
- According to this (http://www.openreach.co.uk/orpg/pricing/wlr/downloads/ORPLWLR_WA_Con.htm) its only £2 for WLR transfers.  I cant seem to find a price though from FMPF.

Edit
Ofcom seems to say £50.70 - linky (http://www.ofcom.org.uk/consult/condocs/rwlam/rwlam_state/) but I dont know if thats just the adsl element... as Ive heard some cases of well over £100.  Best contacting BT really to see how much it is before you decide anything further.
Title: Re: No Connection
Post by: kitz on July 11, 2008, 05:07:31 PM
OT Alert!

This thread reminds me of this radio4 broadcast on the now show

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gGibVROSPr8

Nice guitar being played lapstyle at 0:45 :)
Title: Re: No Connection
Post by: jid on July 11, 2008, 05:08:11 PM
Hi kitz,

So that should mean that as the line is fully owned by Tiscali, resolving faults should be an easier process!

I will be writing a letter to see what that brings mentioning that I should be receiving speeds which they obviously can't provide, or that there is a fault that they cannot fix.

Also could I ask, what throughput and sync speed should I be getting on my 30dB line? Approx?

Many Thanks

jid
Title: Re: No Connection
Post by: jid on July 11, 2008, 05:18:41 PM
I have also just found this on BTs website which may mean that I will not have to pay to be reconnected:-

Quote
This is a one-off connection charge. If your home has had telephone service from BT in the recent past, and the wiring and socket is undamaged and the line still has dialling tone, it's likely you won't need to pay this connection charge. But where there is no suitable BT telephone line available in your property a connection charge of £124.99 may apply. This fee covers engineering work in your exchange or your property in order to connect the line. We'll confirm if the charge applies after you have placed your order as we need to check the details of your property before we can confirm this. If it does apply it will be added to your first BT bill.

I think I will be best keeping with BT for calls and then going with Be* or even Sky Max?

Regards

Jamie
Title: Re: No Connection
Post by: kitz on July 11, 2008, 05:25:41 PM
>> So that should mean that as the line is fully owned by Tiscali, resolving faults should be an easier process!

It could well explain why they dont want to get a BT engineer involved though :/
Even though they "own" the line and the broadband". The "final mile" copper pair from the exchange to your home is still "owned" by BTOpenreach.  If theres any faults on this part of the line (which is where we suspect yours is) then its BTOpenreach's responsibility to fix it.  But that could involve a bill being sent to Tiscali, depending on the nature of the fault, and possibly something they dont want to risk.

Youve checked all you can from your end.. theyve tried messing with the profiles which is under their control, but the bit which we are saying needs checking is the bit still owned by Openreach - hence why we say it needs a BT engineer.

>> Also could I ask, what throughput and sync speed should I be getting on my 30dB line? Approx?

This (http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/max_speed_calc.htm) is a conservative - on the safe side - estimation.
You should be getting a sync speed of 8Mb and throughput of around 6.5 - 7Mbps.



Title: Re: No Connection
Post by: kitz on July 11, 2008, 05:31:29 PM
>> I have also just found this on BTs website which may mean that I will not have to pay to be reconnected:-

Excellent - good luck with that - I think I do recall that at one point they were doing a special offer "to come back", that may be part of it?  Dont know.

>> I think I will be best keeping with BT for calls and then going with Be* or even Sky Max?

Neither of them are FMPF. 
My mum was briefly with sky phone (WRL) but found the phone package worked out dearer for her usage, so has gone back to BT.  Its not so much a problem with WRL than with FMPF.
I'm with Be for adsl  and BT for phone, although Im considering WRL (still BT based) with another ISP as their phone package should work out cheaper for my own use.   Im just too lazy to do it atm.

Title: Re: No Connection
Post by: Ezzer on July 11, 2008, 05:34:50 PM
Kitz, if your refering to the Hayley Moyses clip I posted, It's typicaly called a dobro (actual a trade name bit like calling vacum cleaners hoovers it's a type or resonance guitar).

Ironicaly I would have expected Hayles to be playing that as she's regarded to be one of the top dobro players in the country.


and Jamie, if your were going to bt broadband In case your interested the anywhere package can come with a htc mobile, bit like a blackberry. It's a nice bit of kit and easy to use.
Only two drawbacks to be aware of is if you use the wireless 802.11 connection you definately need the bigger battery (You get 2 in the package) as using that link eats up power. The connection speed for surfing on GSM is fair, it's ok for checking bbc news and this site as an exsample.
The second thing is due to the operating system is based on windows it can be memory hungry. More than a few odd pictures then you'll definately need to invest in a micro sd card

Though i would suspect other isp's will be offering similar packages if that was something you wanted as it's the next thing
Title: Re: No Connection
Post by: kitz on July 11, 2008, 05:43:46 PM
OT alert (sorry jld)

Quote
resonance guitar

yeah thats what I'd call it.
I'm a Mark Knopfler fan, and he's featured a particular resonance guitar on each of the DireStraits albums.

Title: Re: No Connection
Post by: jid on July 11, 2008, 05:49:56 PM
>> I have also just found this on BTs website which may mean that I will not have to pay to be reconnected:-

Excellent - good luck with that - I think I do recall that at one point they were doing a special offer "to come back", that may be part of it?  Dont know.

>> I think I will be best keeping with BT for calls and then going with Be* or even Sky Max?

Neither of them are FMPF. 
My mum was briefly with sky phone (WRL) but found the phone package worked out dearer for her usage, so has gone back to BT.  Its not so much a problem with WRL than with FMPF.
I'm with Be for adsl  and BT for phone, although Im considering WRL (still BT based) with another ISP as their phone package should work out cheaper for my own use.   Im just too lazy to do it atm.



Yes, I was considering just Sky or Be for Broadband ONLY!!! I definately will not be using sky Talk as it is very expensive! £15 just for unlimited calls and line rental! £25 for Talk anytime and 16meg Unlimited.

I wouldn't mind taking out Sky's 8meg but its capped so can't be doing with that:D

I think I might take Anytime calls with BT as it seems not a bad deal, its cheaper than Sky anyways.

Would it be OK to just have 16meg broadband alone from Sky? Then the phone from BT? As I guess they use LLU and ADSL2+ to provide the service?

Thanks

jid
Title: Re: No Connection
Post by: jid on July 11, 2008, 05:53:16 PM
Jamie, if your were going to bt broadband In case your interested the anywhere package can come with a htc mobile, bit like a blackberry. It's a nice bit of kit and easy to use.
Only two drawbacks to be aware of is if you use the wireless 802.11 connection you definately need the bigger battery (You get 2 in the package) as using that link eats up power. The connection speed for surfing on GSM is fair, it's ok for checking bbc news and this site as an exsample.
The second thing is due to the operating system is based on windows it can be memory hungry. More than a few odd pictures then you'll definately need to invest in a micro sd card

Though i would suspect other isp's will be offering similar packages if that was something you wanted as it's the next thing


I will most probably not be going with BT broadband, although the tempt of an HTC mobile is good, the prices for BT broadband unlimited I find to be quite steep to be honest.

As I have Sky TV, I find that it would be easier to have Broadband and TV from them, and save on the Setup costs then as well.

Up to 16meg Unlimited for £10 a month is a pretty good deal to me, and it will be with Sky then as well, lots of people tell me that Sky seem pretty good.

Regards

jid


Title: Re: No Connection
Post by: kitz on July 11, 2008, 05:59:44 PM
Quote
Would it be OK to just have 16meg broadband alone from Sky? Then the phone from BT?

Dont see why not - I know a few people who have BT for phone and then just pay sky £5 or £10 for the broadband packages.
- as long as youre on one of "their" exchanges.


Title: Re: No Connection
Post by: Ezzer on July 11, 2008, 06:04:29 PM
I just thought I'd mention it as I had one (waiting for replacement to my lost one  :'()

Not aware of the actual costs as I get mine on a staff package  ; ;)
Title: Re: No Connection
Post by: jid on July 13, 2008, 11:03:57 AM
I have now written a letter and will be sending it recorded delivery tomorrow to their Customer Support center in Birmingham.

Cross your fingers I think!

Title: Re: No Connection
Post by: jid on July 21, 2008, 11:43:39 AM
Just an update...

My letter has been delivered today via Royal Mail Signed For Recorded Delivery so I can get my hands on an Electronic signature.

So I will keep you up to date with any replies I get from them.
Title: Re: No Connection
Post by: kitz on July 25, 2008, 10:28:35 AM
Hopefully you will get a decent reply soon.
Title: Re: No Connection
Post by: jid on July 25, 2008, 04:05:41 PM
Hopefully you will get a decent reply soon.

So do I.

I am still certain that this is a line fault though.


I am experiencing a LOT of drop outs anytime after 9pm. Last night between 9 and 10 I counted 15!!

The connection is perfect in the day, current stats:-

SNR Down: 8
SNR Up     : 24
Sync Down:4864
Sync Up    : 448

Atten: 30dB

However, the SNR Down goes below 5dB after 9.

I know it sounds funny, but I always know that the connection will drop on or just after 9pm?

Regards

Jamie
Title: Re: No Connection
Post by: kitz on July 25, 2008, 04:19:35 PM
>> but I always know that the connection will drop on or just after 9pm

Sorry Jamie, Ive had a lot on over the past week and my brain is fried.
I cant remember.. did we discuss the possibility at some point of a neighbour perhaps switching something on which could cause an increase in noise
Title: Re: No Connection
Post by: jid on July 25, 2008, 04:27:33 PM
>> but I always know that the connection will drop on or just after 9pm

Sorry Jamie, Ive had a lot on over the past week and my brain is fried.
I cant remember.. did we discuss the possibility at some point of a neighbour perhaps switching something on which could cause an increase in noise

Something like that yeh.

Its started happening recently, I will wait and see what Tiscali say.

If not will open another ticket with them about it.

Thanks Again

Jamie
Title: Re: No Connection
Post by: jid on July 28, 2008, 06:34:59 PM
Well, I have just had a call from Tiscali Support in India.

The man on the phone told me that my line could only support 5.5megs and that I am downloading at that speed, which was in fact the sync speed of the router.

He then asked that I ran a Speed Test, so I did, and the result was a pathetic, 3.9mbps, he claimed that it was still 5.5megs and then started talking rubbish about that the line will only Support this speed due to distance, I live five minutes walking distance from the exchange.

Although he did say something about my line shortly being able to receive up to 8megs? I think he was trying to refer to Tiscali going ADSL2+, although I am not 100% sure?

Title: Re: No Connection
Post by: kitz on July 28, 2008, 08:07:12 PM
>> The man on the phone told me that my line could only support 5.5megs

Down Atten: 30dB

Thats rubbish!
How come all was fine and you were syncing much higher until you had several days of downtime with no adsl at all?

>> that I am downloading at that speed, which was in fact the sync speed of the router.
>> was a pathetic, 3.9mbps, he claimed that it was still 5.5megs

hmmm

>> that the line will only Support this speed due to distance, I live five minutes walking distance from the exchange

More rubbish

>> Although he did say something about my line shortly being able to receive up to 8megs?

Porkie Pies.
Weve already ascertained that youre on Tiscali LLu?
Wont make much difference, It appears your line has a fault somewhere which is stopping your line from syncing at its full potential, swapping to adsl2+ wont make any difference.

>> I think he was trying to refer to Tiscali going ADSL2+

.... Aside from the fact adsl2+ is up to 16/24Mbps.  8Mbps is a limitation of adsl1.


-----

Tiscali have tried every trick in the book and many delay tactics to avoid getting your line looked at properly,  and I think youve just been fed some more bovine manure.  :'(

Sorry Jamie Im not much help am I?
Youve been extra-ordinarily patient.. All I can say that if it was my line I would have moved by now.
The problem being that because you are now on Tiscali LLU, then there is a limitation on which ISPs you can move to without incuring a large fee. 

If you want to go IPStream try those ISP's that will do so without incurring the larger fees, think Plusnet, NewNet and Zen are those that can do it. You also need an ISP that is prepared to take this up with BT.
Alternatively iirc Be/o2 are due to come to your exchange soon?
Title: Re: No Connection
Post by: jid on July 28, 2008, 08:52:45 PM
Be are now enabled at my exchange:D

I have now noticed that the Upstream Sync is back to 256kbps again so will be talking with the Forums team to sort that out again, another Line Profile Refresh  ???

Up SNR : 30dB.

I will be talking to them most def however all I can see is that they may have tweaked my profile again! and believe this will fix it  >:(
Title: Re: No Connection
Post by: kitz on July 29, 2008, 03:12:58 PM
 :'(
Title: Re: No Connection
Post by: jid on July 29, 2008, 05:16:41 PM
I have now reported the constant drop outs to them and have asked for an explanation of what I was told last night (the line was awful). ??? >:(

Then if that fails I will be writing to them again, possibly to the Director of Broadband Services or their Complaints Department,  asking for them to send an Openreach ADSL Engineer out to check the line.

It seems that the Intermittent Connection could be another thing related to a possible Line Fault?
I have checked for any sources of interference but am still getting them. :no:


Title: Re: No Connection
Post by: kitz on July 29, 2008, 10:53:20 PM
Unfortunately, I dont know what else to recommend..  until an Openreach engineer looks at your line, youre a bit snookered :/
Title: Re: No Connection
Post by: jid on July 30, 2008, 10:29:18 AM
How am I going to get an engineer to look at it then?

Will Tiscali have to authorise it or can i request one from them myself?

I have had some response back and all they can tell me is "Are you connecting to the tester socket of the master socket?"

I have told them time and time again that I have an old type master socket!
Title: Re: No Connection
Post by: Ezzer on July 30, 2008, 02:24:31 PM
as its a broadband issue then you have to go via your ISP to arrange an engineer, (as a matter of course we change older nte's for an up to date nte5 where ever practicaly possible and time allows)

If it's a problem with your traditional voice telephony (PSTN) then you go via your PSTN SP
Title: Re: No Connection
Post by: jid on July 30, 2008, 04:36:23 PM
I have just had a call from a second line engineer! ;D

And he was updating the profiles whilst on the phone, and the connection dropping out.

He tried a 7meg profile but that failed to sync, so I am now on a fixed profile I think, as it always looks the same? Stats after sync:-

SNR Down: 7dB
SNR UP    : 23dB
Sync Down: 6144kbps
Sync Up    : 448kbps

So I am stuck with the above stats now ???

I am impressed that they have improved it slightly as it most certainly seems quicker than 3.9megs!

Date     30/07/08 16:35:54
Speed Down    5148.64 Kbps ( 5 Mbps )
Speed Up    377.71 Kbps ( 0.4 Mbps )

Title: Re: No Connection
Post by: jid on July 30, 2008, 06:03:53 PM
I think I have worked out what profile I am on from this page kitz:-
http://kitz.co.uk/isp/tiscali_llu.htm

I am on a 6meg profile where the target SNR is 9dB. It is interleaved so thats prob why its more stable.

Although it has dropped out a few times it seem more stable at the moment, fingers crossed!! It isn't 8pm yet, thats where I was having issues before!
Title: Re: No Connection
Post by: jid on July 30, 2008, 06:05:21 PM
as its a broadband issue then you have to go via your ISP to arrange an engineer, (as a matter of course we change older nte's for an up to date nte5 where ever practicaly possible and time allows)

If it's a problem with your traditional voice telephony (PSTN) then you go via your PSTN SP

Thanks for that advice Ezzer, its most appreciated.

Will they just send one out or will there have to be a reason for getting an engineer out as I understand they have to pay if no issue is found on the line?
Title: Re: No Connection
Post by: jid on July 30, 2008, 07:04:51 PM
Spoke to soon I think  :(

I have just had four dropouts within 3 minutes!

With 1087 ADSL errors! The SNR is just dropping to 4 then 1 then 0 and then dropping out!. Ridiculous!

There must be a fault, this is awful connection quality ::)
Title: Re: No Connection
Post by: jid on July 31, 2008, 10:43:51 AM
Well, after 9:30pm last night, the connection cut out and then failed to reconnect :no:

So I am now going to be insisting they send an Engineer!! >:(
Title: Re: No Connection
Post by: jid on July 31, 2008, 08:54:11 PM
Well, they have now put me back to an adaptive profile ::)

When they checked the stats, the SNR was 2db so there was something wrong there!

I now have a slower connection again! Sync: 5504kbps, its closer to 5megs than I was getting before though.

One question though, if the SNR is higher, is that better or worse to affect the Sync Rate, as it syncs at 12dB?


Title: Re: No Connection
Post by: kitz on August 01, 2008, 12:38:15 AM
groan - I do so feel for you :(


>> When they checked the stats, the SNR was 2db so there was something wrong there!

The SNR probably dropped for the same reason weve observed in the past that theres either a line fault or REIN issue.

>> if the SNR is higher, is that better or worse to affect the Sync Rate,

Its difficult to say straight off since SNRM fluctuates and you have to look at the broader picture .. and sync speed -v- SNRM


Generally speaking though the higher the SNRM the better condition of the line, for that particular sync speed.
Title: Re: No Connection
Post by: jid on August 01, 2008, 09:35:08 AM
Grrrr  >:(

They have put me an adaptive profile and my Upstream sync has gone to 256kbps Again!

The Adaptive profiles really do suck  ::) They cap the Upstream Sync rates!! SNR is 29dB Upstream

Also the Down Sync is 6144kbps, but I am downloading at 5mbps so that is better. However, should I be downloading a bit closer to the 6meg mark if I am syncing at 6144kbps?

Many Thanks

Jamie

Title: Re: No Connection
Post by: kitz on August 01, 2008, 11:57:38 AM
Quote
the Down Sync is 6144kbps, but I am downloading at 5mbps so that is better. However, should I be downloading a bit closer to the 6meg mark if I am syncing at 6144kbps

Due to ATM and TCP/IP over heads your download speed will never be the same as your sync speed.  - Explanation of speeds (http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/speeds2.htm)
Also see ~  data packets ~ which gives a better explanation of ATM overheads (http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/data_transmission.htm).

Very approximately take off 16% off your sync speed for overheads and you get the theoretical maximum throughput speed.
BTw use something called IP profiles (http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/IPprofile.htm) which give an indication of the maximum throughput speed that you will see - look at the list on the bottom of that page.
Title: Re: No Connection
Post by: jid on August 01, 2008, 05:27:21 PM
I have now connected the router to the Master Socket, and I am getting drop outs again!

These are Tiscali's Exact Words:-
Quote
According to the systems here, you are currently on an adaptive profile that will allow upstream speeds of 448kbps. The attainable rate for your line is approx 5.5mb, so you have been placed on a 6mb profile, so you can get speeds up to that level.

So basically they are capping a much more capable line, to 6megs!!! :(

And this:-
Quote
If your line is only capable of speeds in the region of 5.5mb, placing you on a MAX/8mb profile will cause connection and stability problems similar to the ones you have already been experiencing. Therefore, as your line can only obtain 5.5mb placing you on a 6mb profile is more suitable for both bandwidth and stability reasons.

I have now asked if they will put me back on a MAX/8mb profile as I am convinced that my router will easily sync higher than the 6144 mark.
Title: Re: No Connection
Post by: kitz on August 01, 2008, 09:03:17 PM
OK I said I'd never do this again...  because after pulling out all the stops and using a high profile contact I had at BT to get a fault fixed..  the user buggered off with out so much as a thank you after his line was fixed.

Anyhow I dont have any personal contacts in Tiscali..  but I have contacted one of their prominent staff from Milton Keynes and asked if he could have a look at this thread and comment on the appalling service received by you.

I dont know if I'll get a reply - but it would be nice to think that at least someone from Tiscali would take an interest in your case.

This is what I sent

-------------------------

Hi

I'm contacting you in desperation about a tiscali user that has come to my forum for assistance.
It originally started with a no sync issue 2 months ago after he was LLU'd and for the past 2 months Tiscali has had him going round and round and round in circles. - link (http://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php?topic=2247.0).

During that time CS said they have been checking things at the exchange and they've put him on just about every profile possible yet still  a problem with his line remains.

Hes done everything in the book to diagnose the problems himself.
I really cant believe how much this guy has been fobbed off and tbh its an appalling example of poor service from tiscali. :(


During the past 2 months hes had numerous replies on my forum from both myself and 2 BTOpenreach engineers who suspect an underlying line fault, and it needs to be referred to BTw.

Two months on and Tiscali have still got the guy jumping through hoops and messing around with profiles..  and still getting no where - Exchange is SWBNP

Could you please at least get someone to look into this properly, or at least comment and arrange for it to be passed over to Openreach.
Title: Re: No Connection
Post by: jid on August 01, 2008, 10:08:45 PM
Thought I would add ( I don't mean to be rude, I am grateful for what you have done) that it is my fathers tiscali account that the Broadband is through so the one in my forum account is for a Dial-up email account. :-[

Kitz, Many Thanks for doing that. It is much appreciated ;D

I can't thank you enough  :)

I don't know if you used my Tiscali email addres in your contact, but if you need my fathers, I can PM it to you.
Title: Re: No Connection
Post by: kitz on August 01, 2008, 10:37:09 PM
NPs James.

The only info I had anyhow was your exchange - which I got from one of your early posts.
I'm waiting to see if there is any response from Tiscali before passing any details on.
There are a few ISP reps that do hang around this forum - but not tiscali ones, so I was just waiting to see what happened.  With it being weekend could add a bit further delay too.
Title: Re: No Connection
Post by: jid on August 02, 2008, 10:35:03 AM
OK.

No worries  :)

Yes I noticed a PlusNet rep on here i think?  :-\

Kind Regards

Jamie
Title: Re: No Connection
Post by: kitz on August 02, 2008, 11:26:13 AM
Yes a few Plusnet and Zen reps who are tagged.
Theres also a couple of other ISP reps who visit on occasions who arent tagged - its the individuals choice if they want tagging or not. 
Tag status is also awarded only to those ISP reps that Ive confirmed are genuine ISP staff.
Title: Re: No Connection
Post by: jid on August 02, 2008, 12:08:41 PM
Hmm,

I have noticed that my Upstream Speed is still 256kbps!  :no: :-\

If I remember last time I had this issue they (messed with profiles!) refreshed my profile, which pushed it up to 448kbps, it seems they cap all LLU upstream syncs to 448 although they are capable of much higher.

I have also read rumours that Tiscali LLU is ADSL2+ enabled. As they have an Upto 16meg Business product through their LLU network, would be interesting to see if that went to Consumers as well as Business users.
Title: Re: No Connection
Post by: kitz on August 02, 2008, 12:28:05 PM
>> also read rumours that Tiscali LLU is ADSL2+ enabled

Correct.

>> it seems they cap all LLU upstream syncs to 448 although they are capable of much higher

Correct again.
Tiscali Wholesale supply the Backhaul for Tiscali the ISP.
Theres one ISP (Plusnet) that for a short while used Tiscali Wholesale to provision some of their adsl lines on LLU several years ago.
Those residential customers were given 800 kbps upstream profile.  They stopped using Tiscali LLU a long while ago - (way before they were bought out by BT) - due to the numerous problems that occurred during the LLU conversion, although there are still some users that are still on the service, and they still get the higher upstream.
Title: Re: No Connection
Post by: jid on August 02, 2008, 12:34:57 PM
So can Tiscali basically flick a switch and I would be on an ADSL2+ Service?  ;D Or is it not as simple as that.

I read the Service Status page on Plusnets website and came across this:-

Quote
This is an update to the the overnight problem resulting in connection problems or slow speeds for our customers using the Tiscali LLU platform.
You can see the post from last night here:-
http://usertools.plus.net/status/archive/1217375470.htm

We received confirmation from Tiscali that this problem was resolved around 3am and was caused by an optical fault on their network.

If you are still experiencing slow speeds when connected on the LLU system, we would advise rebooting your modem/router and testing again before contacting our support team.

Kind Regards,

Obviously there are still some Plusnet customers on Tiscali LLU.

Also, Plusnet were reporting Authentication issues last night, the same as Tiscali's Entire Network was experiencing. (Authentication issues don't help when your connection drops out a lot!! :-\)

Title: Re: No Connection
Post by: jid on August 02, 2008, 07:01:47 PM
Here is the latest contact:-

Quote
Your SNR is low and fluctuating, we have tried a couple of different line profiles and none of them appear to be improving matters. It is possible that there is fault with some of the internal wiring. Therefore, can you try replacing the microfilters and also test from the backplate of the main phone socket (unscrew faceplate to reveal test socket). Please let us know the results of this.

I have tried changing filters and connecting at the Master Socket makes no change whatsoever  >:(

Also as I have told them before, I have an old type Master Socket so possibly an Engineer is the next port of call :-\
Title: Re: No Connection
Post by: jid on August 02, 2008, 07:24:32 PM
Here is the latest

Quote
I have ordered 2 replacement microfilters for you, so you can test the service with them. They should be with you by the middle to end of next week.

I have Speedtouch filters which are Great compared with my D Link ones! Waste of time again!
Title: Re: No Connection
Post by: Ezzer on August 02, 2008, 07:32:14 PM
2 main reasons for a faulty filter. spillage like coffee, wine, pet pee. or lightning surge.

By the way approx how big is the master socket and do you have extention wiring off it ?
Title: Re: No Connection
Post by: jid on August 03, 2008, 10:49:32 AM
2 main reasons for a faulty filter. spillage like coffee, wine, pet pee. or lightning surge.

By the way approx how big is the master socket and do you have extention wiring off it ?

Its like this :-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:LJ_Front.jpg

There is a Hard Wired extension and an Extension that you plug into the front.

The hard wired extension is the one that the Broadband works off.

As for the filters, I haven't got any animals, and they are no where near where they could be spilled on. Could be a surge or lightning strike though  :-\
Title: Re: No Connection
Post by: jid on August 04, 2008, 12:15:29 PM
Well, I have just installed the latest firmware on my router, which is confirming that the ADSL F/W has been changed to Version 7.

I am noticing the SNR to be even better than before! Currently is 12dB-13dB  ;D

I am now asking to be put on an 8meg profile to see if I can get some more speed as the SNR has improved.

Title: Re: No Connection
Post by: jid on August 04, 2008, 07:08:18 PM
Spoke to soon!  ::)

Current SNR: 0dB!! Although it hasn't dropped out, the routers new firmware is good at holding a connection >:(
Title: Re: No Connection
Post by: jid on August 05, 2008, 10:55:46 AM
Well I received new test filters from them and the current SNR.......................0dB :(

So where they will go from here I don't know, but they will probably open a Ticket and possible send an engineer I don't really know?
Title: Re: No Connection
Post by: jid on August 05, 2008, 11:35:11 AM
kitz,

Any news from your contact?
Title: Re: No Connection
Post by: jid on August 05, 2008, 12:36:20 PM
This is ridiculous!  >:D

They have put me on a 4meg profile to see how that goes! I have a 30dB line !!!!

I am now downloading at a pathetic 2.7meg! I just downloaded at 5meg until they messed it up, it was holding nicely at 12dB too.
Title: Re: No Connection
Post by: kitz on August 05, 2008, 01:42:53 PM
>> Spoke to soon

:(

Thats probably because the underlying line fault is still there..  No amount of tweaking with tiscali profiles etc is going to help if its an underlying line problem :/

btw I havent heard anything from tiscali.

Title: Re: No Connection
Post by: jid on August 05, 2008, 01:47:08 PM
Yes my current SNR 17dB??? I thought SNR only goes upto 15dB? This 4meg profile has an 8meg equivalent so have asked to go on something similar, its just too slowwwwww!!

What could this fault be, will it cause the SNR problems? Also, if I have an Engineer out and they don't find a fault will I or the ISP be charged?
Title: Re: No Connection
Post by: jid on August 05, 2008, 05:14:03 PM
Latest contact:-
Quote
Your post confirms your SNR is 14db, is it stable at this rate or is it falling below this?

You are sync'd at 4MB because as advised above, you are on a 4MB profile to stabilise your line. Once we have confirmed that your SNR is remaining steady and that disconnections have stopped, then we MAY be able to increase the profile.
Title: Re: No Connection
Post by: jid on August 05, 2008, 06:27:01 PM
Well here is the latest:-
Quote
Thanks for confirming. It looks like the 4 meg setting is going to be most suitable for your line. However, I will run this via ---- and one of us will revert tomorrow to confirm.

I have replied:-
Quote
I am downloading at 2.9mbps? That is ridiculously slow for my line! I haven't yet had a chance to monitor the evenings so will keep my eye out tonight.

I am on an Upto 8meg Package, is a profile change all that can be done?

Before switching, I was happily syncing around 7000kbps with a very stable connection.

Could a fault have occurred? Are there any checks that can be done?

I just feel that 2.9megs on a 30dB line is ridiculous!! 

I am beginning to feel that no one cares at Tiscali about the state of my connection!  >:(
Title: Re: No Connection
Post by: kitz on August 05, 2008, 07:21:53 PM
Well this must be about the longest running thread ever for which an ISP has messed around with someones profile trying to stabilise a line that appears to have an under lying line fault.

Just shows how awful the Tiscali so called support is I'm afraid.   :'(
Any decent ISP would have referred this to a BT engineer months ago.
Title: Re: No Connection
Post by: jid on August 05, 2008, 07:27:55 PM
What got me today was the thing on Be's homepage.

It tells me, "Well, you won't be breaking any landline speed records today!"

And the bloke on there starts crying!

I will be honest, for five years, I only ever contacted them once, when they forgot to upgrade my line circuit to a MAX one!

Ever since they LLU'd me I have been in contact with them endlessly!  :comp:

Title: Re: No Connection
Post by: kitz on August 05, 2008, 07:30:26 PM
I hate to say this cause Ive bit my tongue for too long.

Many people say that tiscali is fine as an ISP..   but what they dont realise that.... if you have a problem..  its only then that you see how bad they are. :(
Title: Re: No Connection
Post by: jid on August 05, 2008, 07:35:42 PM
I know! By the amount of reviews on the web, I understand that, but their package I am on is great.

Line Rental, Anytime Local and International Calls and Broadband for £19.99! Can't go wrong ;D
Title: Re: No Connection
Post by: mr_chris on August 05, 2008, 10:13:09 PM
Line Rental, Anytime Local and International Calls and Broadband for £19.99! Can't go wrong ;D

This is nothing against you, but unfortunately, you obviously can go wrong :(

I'll say this now, this post represents my own personal view, and NOT an official site view, or anything.

You're basically paying £19.99 for a package which very likely costs Tiscali more than that, once all costs (hardware, software, staffing, buildings, etc) are factored in. I have no real basis for saying that, but it's probably very fair to say that they are not making a profit from this package.

<conspiracy theory> One has to wonder why Tiscali haven't been bought yet, despite being 'on the market' for months.... Vodafone were supposedly quite close to completing a deal, but then suddenly pulled out. Is it because they saw the Tiscali's books and ran a mile?? </conspiracy theory>
Title: Re: No Connection
Post by: kitz on August 06, 2008, 01:21:44 AM
Quote
<conspiracy theory> One has to wonder why Tiscali haven't been bought yet, despite being 'on the market' for months.... Vodafone were supposedly quite close to completing a deal, but then suddenly pulled out. Is it because they saw the Tiscali's books and ran a mile?? </conspiracy theory>

You are not alone in wondering the same thing.. it was more or less supposed a done deal, first of all beginning of June, then tiscali opened up the books to the interested parties.. and suddenly Vodafone withdrew.. then  there was a delay which they said would be end of June..  and its now august and we still not heard anything at all.
Title: Re: No Connection
Post by: jid on August 06, 2008, 10:23:58 AM
chris and kitz,

Thanks for your thoughts on that. Anyway, for the time being I am not planning to move ISP, Tiscali will make a hassle of taking me from their LLU so, I am staying  there for the time being at least...
Title: Re: No Connection
Post by: jid on August 06, 2008, 11:04:37 AM
Well i think I am finally getting somewhere:-
Quote
We are diagnosing your fault. I understand that you do not like the speeds you are currently getting but as you stated yourself, on the higher profile, the connection is regualrly dropping out. Which scenario would you prefer whilst we work on this?

Obviously I want my speeds back to normal!  ;D
Title: Re: No Connection
Post by: jid on August 07, 2008, 08:41:47 PM
Well I think that everyones hunch that this is a line fault is correct!  :D

The SNR has been 0dB for most of the day today, however it hasn't dropped out. I tried connecting it to the master with the same reading, 0dB!

Could it be that the master socket is on its way out? It is a good 15-20 years old, maybe more?

btw, Kitz have you heard anything from Tiscali?
Title: Re: No Connection
Post by: kitz on August 07, 2008, 08:49:20 PM
>> Could it be that the master socket is on its way out?

Doubtful in the way that you mean..  there could be a problem with the wiring at this point.. which a BT engineer should be able to spot and fix though.

Nope - nothing from tiscali
Title: Re: No Connection
Post by: jid on August 07, 2008, 08:55:48 PM
>> Could it be that the master socket is on its way out?

Doubtful in the way that you mean..  there could be a problem with the wiring at this point.. which a BT engineer should be able to spot and fix though.

Nope - nothing from tiscali

Which wiring? As the socket is old perhaps a new NTE5 Faceplate will do the trick?

Also is it possible that the "Green Cabinet" has something to do with it?

As for Tiscali, thanks for keeping me updated. I think I am getting somewhere with their Forums team at the moment so hopefully they will pass it to BT and then it will be an Engineer job.

As I have said I have requested they pass it to BT many times but they keep saying they need to Diagnose this first.

I am still on a 4meg profile which is very slow  :no:
Title: Re: No Connection
Post by: jid on August 08, 2008, 10:31:04 AM
Well after another day they still haven't put my profile back to normal  >:(

(https://forum.kitz.co.uk/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.speedtest.net%2Fresult%2F306451765.png&hash=680340f81edaffa1da3f9ed16893ad807a69d8ca)

That is very annoying for a 30dB line!  >:D >:(

Everything is sooo slowwww
Title: Re: No Connection
Post by: kitz on August 08, 2008, 12:20:18 PM
>> Also is it possible that the "Green Cabinet" has something to do with it?

Dont know - hence why it needs an engineer to investigate..  the problem would appear to be somewhere between the exchange and your home.
Title: Re: No Connection
Post by: jid on August 08, 2008, 12:23:19 PM
>> Also is it possible that the "Green Cabinet" has something to do with it?

Dont know - hence why it needs an engineer to investigate..  the problem would appear to be somewhere between the exchange and your home.

Hmm, well I am going away Sunday for a week so I won't be able to do anything then, hopefully someone will give them a kick up the backside to set my profile back again.

Also, you mentioned you had a contact in Milton Keynes, thought I would mention that they are now based in Birmingham :'(
Doubt it will make any difference though!
Title: Re: No Connection
Post by: kitz on August 08, 2008, 01:04:07 PM
>> Also, you mentioned you had a contact in Milton Keynes,

Tiscali is one of the ISPs that I dont have a personal contact with.. 
but I contacted someone from MK specifically because MK is where they are aware of this site, and do make frequent references to it.
Title: Re: No Connection
Post by: jid on August 08, 2008, 01:20:39 PM
>> Also, you mentioned you had a contact in Milton Keynes,

Tiscali is one of the ISPs that I dont have a personal contact with.. 
but I contacted someone from MK specifically because MK is where they are aware of this site, and do make frequent references to it.

Aah OK.

Well I haven't heard anything from them today but hopefully I should get my Profile back at least!

Is it possible that I am on a High Target SNR Profile as when I sync the SNR is up in the 15dB range, is it possible to have an 8meg Profile with a High Target SNR and still get good high speeds?
Title: Re: No Connection
Post by: Ezzer on August 08, 2008, 01:21:59 PM
could it be the cab ? could be anywhere in the network between the mux at the exchange to the router
Title: Re: No Connection
Post by: jid on August 08, 2008, 01:24:50 PM
could it be the cab ? could be anywhere in the network between the mux at the exchange to the router

Ezzer,

Thanks for the reply. Whats a MUX? I know that in freeview its a Multiplex of Channels, so what is it in terms of ADSL?

Title: Engineer Visit On The Way :)
Post by: jid on August 09, 2008, 01:25:51 PM
Hi Kitz,Ezzer and everyone who posted.

Thought I would let you all know that I received this from Tiscali's Forums Team today:-
Quote
There is no point in setting your profile to a higher setting as it has dropped out whilst being set at 4mb. Anything higher and the disconnections will reoccur. I will pass this back to ** to assess, he will arrange with you the next course of action. As you are away next week please can you advise when you will be available in the following week as I think that an engineer may be required.

Finally, they have admitted there is something not quite right with my line. ;D

I will be out of the country next week so they will be arranging a visit for Monday 18th August (I hope!)
Will keep my eye out on the Forums and Tiscali Forums and post here any updates they send me.

@kitz, Many thanks for your efforts with contacting Tiscali, its most appreciated! and for all of your help and advice you have given these past months  :D
@Ezzer, Thanks for your advice and knowledge of ADSL which has helped me along and kept my spirits up :)
@Everyone else!. Thanks to you all for your help and advice.

Although they haven't confirmed the visit yet, I can't see anymore things they can do or anymore tests they can run, so fingers crossed.
Title: Re: No Connection
Post by: Ezzer on August 09, 2008, 04:40:09 PM
MUX is the kit in the exchange which has all the dsl cards which adds the dsl signal on to your line, otherwise dslam. It's what every one referd to it as when I started doing broadband work, still use it as most of them are labled as such.

Sounds like the right new from tiscali, I'm keeping my fingers crossed for you  ;D
Title: Engineer Visit On The Way :)
Post by: jid on August 09, 2008, 04:51:10 PM
Ah right I see :)

Yes thanks.  :)
Title: Re: No Connection
Post by: kitz on August 10, 2008, 02:09:43 PM
>> as I think that an engineer may be required.

At last they are finally getting the message!

>> could be anywhere in the network between the mux at the exchange to the router

Ezzer is just confirming that what weve said all along that its probably between the exchange and your home. 
MUX is the term used in the very early days of adsl (eg the old Westels (http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/images/photos/DSLAM_01.jpg) which was actually a "1st generation DSLAM)  but iirc in about 2002/2003 they started installing bigger (and better) equipment such as the Fujitsus (http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/images/photos/DSLAM_03.jpg) which is when the term DSLAM became more prevalent.. although you may on occasions still hear the term MUX to decribe the dslams, since a DSLAM is a MUX specifically for (a)DSL.

MUX = Multiplexor

DSLAM = Digital Subscriber Line Access MUX
Title: Re: No Connection
Post by: kitz on August 10, 2008, 02:23:52 PM
Actually - just thought should also add - Tiscali dont use DSLAMs they use MSANs.

BT have been installing MSANs since about early 2005 for Maxdsl. - Traditionally Marconi (http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/images/photos/MSAN_3.jpg) ones.
21CN is likely to use  Fujitsu GeoStream Access Gateways (http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/images/photos/DSLAM_04.jpg) which are technically an MSAN or  what Fujitsu calls a "third generation DSLAM".

MSANs (Multi Service Access Node) are able to carry telephone voice traffic as well as DSL traffic back to the supplier.

Title: Re: No Connection
Post by: jid on August 11, 2008, 04:26:35 PM
Thanks for confiming that.

In the Sun of Lanzarote at the moment and will be keeping my eye on the Tiscali Forums to see if they confirm if an engineer is goign to be sent or not.

Its pretty hot here and their ADSL2+ connection is making me tempted to go to Be* :lol:

I will keep you posted

Many Thanks

Jamie
Title: Engineer on the Way monday!!!!
Post by: jid on August 16, 2008, 10:10:42 AM
Hi All,

Thought I would let you know that an engineer is coming on Monday so will keep you posted ;D

@Ezzer, Could you tell me what he will do and if he will fit a new NTE5 master socket in?

Many Thanks to you all especially kitz :)

Jamie ;D
Title: Re: No Connection
Post by: Ezzer on August 16, 2008, 11:03:04 AM
if you havn't got an nte5 then one would normaly be fitted (unless there was some practical or time constraint)

Depending on what info (or lack of) he/she gets she/he may start with a test from the dsl output in the exchange under a load.

and always a test from what ever nte you currently have, you might also notice they may look distracted as we always have a good look around the property to see how the wiring is fitted and is there anything lurking which could be a give away (like star wiring, external bells etc) then depending on the sync and stats i could write reams of stuff as to what could be next.  :) 
Title: Re: No Connection
Post by: kitz on August 16, 2008, 11:57:22 AM
YAY - About time :)


Okay jid - heres what I'd do.   Firstly and importantly bear in mind that Openreach engineers all have a fixed maximum time slot to get the job completed so be prepared.

Make a list of the main points and keep them short - Copy the following if need be and write it on a piece of paper to give to him.



If possible leave another piece of paper printed out showing some of the very low syncs youve had and some of the stats with the high error rates and low SNR.

Then...  offer to go make him a brew whilst he reads it.   Bear in mind the limitation on time he will have, so going away to make a brew gives him a bit of time to digest the contents of the note and run his tests.


Good luck. :)
Title: Re: No Connection
Post by: kitz on August 16, 2008, 12:00:18 PM
PS
I got a notification last week that my message to Tiscali had been read - so its possible that he may have been away on hol.
However I havent had any reply from the person concerned.

Title: Re: No Connection
Post by: jid on August 16, 2008, 03:03:15 PM
@Ezzer, Thanks for the reply. Hopefully I will have an NTE5 faceplate then ;D

@Kitz, I don´t really want an ADSL faceplate as I don´t have the router connected to the master as it makes the connection more unstable! I have the router upstairs as the wireless works better that way.

I will keep you posted when I get home.

Many Thanks

Jid
Title: Engineer Times
Post by: jid on August 17, 2008, 05:17:28 PM
I have an appointment booked for AM, however, could either Ezzer or Kitz tell me what time slot that is?

Many Thanks

Jamie
Title: Engineer : No Errors Found
Post by: jid on August 18, 2008, 11:24:44 AM
Hi All,

Well, here is the bad news :( No faults were found with the Engineers laptop.

He came in, plugged in his laptop, hooked up his USB modem, connected up, and found that the SNR was 18dB! Typical!

Lappy said there were no errors on the line and that the line will now be monitored for the next 2weeks from the "Broadband Center" and that if they see that the line is underperforming (which it is) then they will send someone else out to have a look at the pairs and to see what else they can do to improve the quality of the line.

They are currently messing with profiles again, and trying to up my profile, but its dropping out again :o

They have now closed the thread, here is their reply:-
Quote
You were not able to sync because I changed your profile back up as requested. I have now put it back to 4MB. If you would like to try more profiles, I recommend calling the number at the top and asking them to do this whilst you are on the phone incase of loss of service. For now, as BT could not see a problem, I am closing your thread.

This is rediculous. I will email them, otherwise I am getting my Mac and going to Be or Sky, this is total ****

(excuse my language!)
Title: Re: No Connection
Post by: kitz on August 18, 2008, 12:37:45 PM
>> He came in, plugged in his laptop, hooked up his USB modem, connected up, and found that the SNR was 18dB!

Did you give him a piece of paper with the bullet points  above I mentioned and some examples of the low syncs etc. 
What were his comments on those?

>> the line will now be monitored for the next 2weeks from the "Broadband Center" and that if they see that the line is underperforming (which it is)

Who said that? Tiscali or BT? 
Title: Re: No Connection
Post by: jid on August 18, 2008, 01:34:35 PM
>> He came in, plugged in his laptop, hooked up his USB modem, connected up, and found that the SNR was 18dB!

Did you give him a piece of paper with the bullet points  above I mentioned and some examples of the low syncs etc. 
What were his comments on those?

>> the line will now be monitored for the next 2weeks from the "Broadband Center" and that if they see that the line is underperforming (which it is)

Who said that? Tiscali or BT? 

Yeh, I gave him those points, he said he can't really do anything unless the line under performs while he is there, as the SNR was a good 18dB whilst there, he couldn't do anymore.

He agreed that the line should sync at around 7000kbps or more with no issues and that the Upstream is crap! He also agreed with the fact that the SNR was most likely dropping and that it could be a Pair or something to that degree causing the problem, however, until a dedicated team are sent, the 2week monitoring has to complete first.

The BT Openreach engineer told me that they will monitor the line, what does it mean? He did say the guys there are pretty good though (what a relief >:()

Also have found the extended stats from my routers Telnet app:-
Quote
[DSL Modem Stats]
        US Connection Rate:     256     DS Connection Rate:     4096
        DS Line Attenuation:    31      DS Margin:              14
        US Line Attenuation:    17      US Margin:              28
        US Payload :            1724928 DS Payload:             6265056
        US Superframe Cnt :     292380  DS Superframe Cnt:      292380
        US Transmit Power :     11      DS Transmit Power:      19
        LOS errors:             0       SEF errors:             0
        Errored Seconds:        0       Severely Err Secs:      0
        Frame mode:             3       Max Frame mode:         0
        Trained Path:           1       US Peak Cell Rate:      603
        Trained Mode:           3       Selected Mode:          1
        ATUC Vendor Code:       4946544E        ATUC Revision:  2
        Hybrid Selected:        1       Trellis:                1
        Showtime Count:         4       DS Max Attainable Bit Rate: 4832 kbps
        BitSwap:                1       US Max Attainable Bit Rate:     n/a
        Annex:                  AnxA    psd_mask_qualifier: 0x0000
        ATUC ghsVid:  b5 00 49 46 54 4e 71 53
        T1413Vid: 00 00         T1413Rev: 00            VendorRev: 00
        ATUR ghsVid:  44 4c 69 6e 6b 00 00 00
        T1413Vid: 00 00 T1413Rev: 00    VendorRev: 00

        [Upstream (TX) Interleave path]
        CRC:    1       FEC:    0       NCD:    0
        LCD:    0       HEC:    0

        [Downstream (RX) Interleave path]
        CRC:    4       FEC:    25144   NCD:    0
        LCD:    0       HEC:    0

        [Upstream (TX) Fast path]
        CRC:    0       FEC:    0       NCD:    1
        LCD:    0       HEC:    0

        [Downstream (RX) Fast path]
        CRC:    0       FEC:    0       NCD:    0
        LCD:    0       HEC:    0

[ATM Stats]
        [Upstream/TX]
        Good Cell Cnt:  35936
        Idle Cell Cnt:  2965097

        Tx Packets Dropped Count:       0
        Tx Bad Packets Count:   315

        [Downstream/RX)]
        Good Cell Cnt:  130522
        Idle Cell Cnt:  47885902
        Bad Hec Cell Cnt:       8
        Overflow Dropped Cell Cnt:      0
        Rx Packets Dropped Count:       0
        Rx Bad Packets Count:   0


[SAR AAL5 Stats]
        Tx PDU's:       33220
        Rx PDU's:       43688
        Tx Total Bytes: 6230577
        Rx Total Bytes: 37328445
        Tx Total Error Counts:  0
        Rx Total Error Counts:  42


[OAM Stats]
        Near End F5 Loop Back Count:    0
        Near End F4 Loop Back Count:    0
        Far End F5 Loop Back Count:     0
        Far End F4 Loop Back Count:     0
        SAR OAM Ping Response Drop Count=15
Title: Re: No Connection
Post by: Ezzer on August 18, 2008, 02:18:37 PM
I would think he's refering to the BOU which is part of bt wholesale as they still have the full woosh profiles (thanks ofcom !)

The only thing is over what time period did the fec errors occur ?
Title: Re: No Connection
Post by: jid on August 18, 2008, 05:34:27 PM
I would think he's refering to the BOU which is part of bt wholesale as they still have the full woosh profiles (thanks ofcom !)

The only thing is over what time period did the fec errors occur ?

Well the router had been over about 3 hours?

So with this BOU thing, will there be a chance of another engineer coming then? Or was it porkies?
Title: Re: No Connection
Post by: Ezzer on August 18, 2008, 05:50:16 PM
Depends on your isp/bt wholesale.

It's awful when we arrive the main fault dos't show, problem is although 18 is high it's still strictly speaking within perameters although I agree I would expect better speed :no:
Title: Re: No Connection
Post by: jid on August 18, 2008, 05:52:47 PM
Depends on your isp/bt wholesale.

It's awful when we arrive the main fault dos't show, problem is although 18 is high it's still strictly speaking within perameters although I agree I would expect better speed :no:

Thing is, are you allowed to look at the customers equipments stats or do you have to use your own? As at the time the router was at 1dB! Then he had to pull out the phone to let his USB modem plugged in.

So would my ISP have to pay for the second engineer then? Or is that part of the BT Service, as Tiscali have said they will close my thread "for now"?

Many Thanks

Jamie
Title: Re: No Connection
Post by: Ezzer on August 19, 2008, 12:43:40 AM
Officialy we are suppsed to plug our apps into the nte and go by our stats alone (need emocon of whistleing whilst trying to look inoccent)

As to who pays, don't know, all that bit is beyond Bt Openreach  ???
Title: Re: No Connection
Post by: jid on August 19, 2008, 10:59:46 AM
OK, Thanks Ezzer.

Much appreciated.
Title: Nothing Further They Can Do?
Post by: jid on August 19, 2008, 11:36:26 AM
Latest
Quote
There is nothing further that we can do for you. Your speeds are acceptable for your line. The BT engineer reported back that there is no fault found and that the readings are good. We have checked everything we can from here and so can offer no further assistance.
Title: Re: No Connection
Post by: kitz on August 19, 2008, 12:19:10 PM
After just having read the relevant thread on the tiscali forums about your problems, and the tiscali replies (including one of them from the person whom I contacted), they appear to have totally washed their hands of this case - not that they ever did much than play around with your profiles anyhow.

Im not sure but looking at that thread - when the engineer visited it looks like you may have been on one of their low profiles (eg the fixed 256 upstream) which is why the engineer may not have seen many problems when he tired to sync.  The reality is a 30dB line should be performing much better than yours does

Looking at the assistance you have got from them its not much help and often repetitive. 
I'm afraid theres not much I can do either if the ISP wont play ball... its only your ISP that can request the engineers visit..

I'm afraid theres nothing more I can suggest either... Other than do something I suggested about 6 weeks ago

http://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php?topic=2247.msg71713#msg71713
Title: Re: No Connection
Post by: jid on August 19, 2008, 01:21:13 PM
Well I think your hunch of a line fault is still correct.

The phone and broadband has gone down but broadband has just returned. This still looks like a BT Engineer job.

2 weeks may bring out a fault as BT should be monitoring my stats.
Title: Re: No Connection
Post by: mr_chris on August 19, 2008, 01:23:40 PM
Are you going to demand your MAC without penalty, as Kitz suggested? I think I would have done by now.
Title: Re: No Connection
Post by: jid on August 19, 2008, 01:25:48 PM
Well, I am on LLU, so a MAC won't be an option.

I may have to pay to be reconnected to BT, then go to another provider.

Although as I may go to Sky, there maybe a chance of just switching LLU directly? I don't know, could someone advise me on that?
Title: Re: No Connection
Post by: mr_chris on August 19, 2008, 01:34:23 PM
An LLU MAC IS an option, otherwise we wouldn't have suggested it. I think Sky accepts these.

Also, I'm pretty sure you won't have to pay to get back onto BT - the only time you pay is if the line is physically disconnected and you go to cable, for example. You're still getting phone and broadband through the BT-owned phone line, just connected to someone else's equipment in the exchange.
Title: Re: No Connection
Post by: jid on August 19, 2008, 01:43:24 PM
Other thing is, how would I get around keeping my Tiscali email addresses?

Could I downgrade it to Dial Up? My father doesn't want to loose his email address as all of his accounts etc use that email address?

I didn't know there were LLU MACs? Thats interesting? hmmm

Thanks mr_chris  :)

Title: Re: No Connection
Post by: mr_chris on August 19, 2008, 01:47:15 PM
Hmm, I'm afraid I don't know Tiscali's stance on keeping email addresses after you're not a customer anymore. Perhaps you can downgrade the account to dialup, but I really don't have the foggiest, to be honest!

That's why I bought a domain name and use that for all my email - so it doesn't matter which ISP I'm with.
Title: Re: No Connection
Post by: jid on August 19, 2008, 01:56:07 PM
Hmm, I'm afraid I don't know Tiscali's stance on keeping email addresses after you're not a customer anymore. Perhaps you can downgrade the account to dialup, but I really don't have the foggiest, to be honest!

That's why I bought a domain name and use that for all my email - so it doesn't matter which ISP I'm with.

Thing I want to save money, hence why I went with Tiscali's phone package. I was on their normal DataStream product, so I upgraded.
Title: Re: No Connection
Post by: dave.m on August 19, 2008, 02:03:24 PM
Quote
My father doesn't want to loose his email address as all of his accounts etc use that email address?

If you move house you have to notify everyone of your new home address.
Set up a Gmail account and it does not matter how many times you change ISP it stays.
It will simply mean sending everyone in his address an email notification.

Gmail can now be changed to https secure so no problems there.

dave
Title: Re: No Connection
Post by: jid on August 19, 2008, 02:04:29 PM
Quote
My father doesn't want to loose his email address as all of his accounts etc use that email address?

If you move house you have to notify everyone of your new home address.
Set up a Gmail account and it does not matter how many times you change ISP it stays.
It will simply mean sending everyone in his address an email notification.

Gmail can now be changed to https secure so no problems there.

dave

Thing is what about all of the online services and banks that his email address is in, he signs up to everything lol

Title: Re: No Connection
Post by: jid on August 19, 2008, 02:37:15 PM
Quote
Dear Sir/Madam,

I have recently been in contact with your department with regards to my Slow and now Unstable internet connection.

I recently wrote a letter (reference 213688) regarding my Slow Speeds and have received a Phone Call and a Letter regarding the matter. You Technical Support advisor went through some line profiles and eventually found that a 6meg profile was as high as my line would support. (Ticket UKHD00001908661).

After the profile being set to a Fixed setting, my line became unstable, constantly dropping out and the SNR readings being very low, in the region of 0dB to -1dB.

I then decided to contact your Forums team regarding the matter (Ticket 1964643), they went through all of the usual tests and even sent out test filters to rule out my own, there was still no change and my line was still unstable. After these checks, they changed my Line Profile from Fixed to an Adaptive rate setting, capping that to 6meg, as this is apparently all my line would support? This failed to rectify the problem and I was still getting drop outs of the connection. I was then told my line would only support 5.5megs? However I had been receiving speeds of 6.5megs and sync speeds of 7000 – 7500 kbps and have a 30dB line?

I was then told that I have been put on a 4meg profile, this caused my connection speed to drop dramatically but still, the drop outs continued and my SNR stayed in the 2dB to -1dB range. On the 9th August, it was decided that a BT Engineer would be sent our to test my line, I accepted and a visit was then booked for 18th August AM. I was still on a 4meg profile and understood that as the engineer would only connect his equipment for a short while, the SNR would be in the region of around 18dB, of course, the engineer couldn’t see anything wrong at the time, as the SNR was stable.

The engineer left and confirmed that there was nothing found on the line and no faults were detected. He confirmed that the line would then be monitored for two weeks and if the line was still underperforming, another Engineer would be in touch to attempt to improve the line.

I feel that since I switched to your Line Rental service (LLU), I have experienced nothing but trouble with it. I have been a Tiscali customer for 5years with no problems and feel that this has been a big let down to your service.

I believe that there is either a fault with my Phone Line or equipment in the Telephone exchange and this needs to be investigated more thoroughly.

I do hope that this issue can be resolved.

That is the email I am going to send, please do have a read and any suggestions would be appreciated :)
Title: Re: No Connection
Post by: dave.m on August 19, 2008, 02:45:36 PM
Quote
Thing is what about all of the online services and banks that his email address is in, he signs up to everything

What happens when you finally move from Tiscali because it is blindingly obvious that they are not interested in sorting out your problems?
He will still have to notify everyone who uses his email addy and rather than do it everytime you are not happy with an ISP just do it once.
It shouldn't take a fortnight to notify everyone. Even Mr G Brown doesn't have that many online services and banks.

Why is it that no matter what advise is given on here, you always find an excuse for not doing it?
If you are not happy with what has been suggested, and Kitz offered you the best advice on the 3rd July and six weeks later you are still umming and arrring as to what to do and asking for more help.
With 11 pages and 150+ posts in this thread, surely you must have got the message by now that Tiscali are not really interested in you, and to change to someone else.
If you do not want to change email addresses because it would involve notifying a few people and companies, then stick with the address and ISP that you have, but stop ask for anymore help and then not doing it.
Title: Re: No Connection
Post by: jid on August 19, 2008, 02:53:36 PM
I am not trying to avoid taking your advice.

I take everyone's advice on board. Thing is, I will be doing GCSEs next year and wanted an easier router than changing ISP, with all the work I will have, do you seriously think I have time to go around webpages changing email addresses and sending upto 300 people notifications?

They obviously are interested, 10 minutes ago I had a call from, after I reported a fault, them asking whether my Broadband & Phone was working, they even hung up to let me try outgoings and then rang back? Hardly not interested is it?

Sorry if I was a bit rude Dave but I had to get the message across.  :o
Title: Re: No Connection
Post by: dave.m on August 19, 2008, 03:08:45 PM
Quote
Why is it that no matter what advice is given on here, you always find an excuse for not doing it?

Here you go again . . .   :(

Quote
with all the work I will have, do you seriously think I have time to go around webpages changing email addresses and sending upto 300 people notifications?

To send out 300 emails notifying people of a new address would take about a hour at the most, using your address book batching them together.
As for the webpages, do they email you with news etc, because they should have a quick-click method of getting to your profile and altering it.
If you only use the email address as a username to log on then there is no problem.

dave  ;)
Title: Re: No Connection
Post by: jid on August 19, 2008, 03:12:39 PM
I will be emailing Tiscali to see if there is anymore they can do and if not to supply me with a MAC code,I will also call Sky toward the end of the week to see what they can do to get me on a Max package, as I have heard they will pay to have your BT line reconnected.

Thanks to everyone for their help.

I will keep you posted.

Title: Re: No Connection
Post by: kitz on August 19, 2008, 03:44:32 PM
Unfortunately for you..  you are seeing the one of the reasons why Tiscali is often thought of as a bad ISP.
Theyre ok if theres no problems and you just want your connection for surfing and mail.. but if you have any problems or want a bit more out of your connection then.... well...

adsl isnt like that, and everyone has problems on occasions, Im sure we all have. 
mr_chris and I used to be on the same exchange and many years ago when adsl was in its infancy, we had some major problems at this exchange, it was something unheard of before and it was affecting a lot of users.
I was collating a lot of info at the time about the fault and it was quite interesting to see how various ISPs reacted to this problem which was supposedly impossible. Of all the people on our exchange complaining whom were with various ISPs... There were only a few ISPs that actually reacted in any way to attempt to actually do something. 
1. Plusnet whom was my own ISP at the time. 
2. Zen - whom chris was with..
and iirc the other was either Eclipse or Pipex (before they were taken over by tiscali).

Back then I knew practically zilch about adsl.. I was a n00b and nothing to my ISP other than a new customer of a few weeks.. yet they kept taking it back to BT... 

to cut a long story short it was eventually resolved by BTw and we were all happy bunnies again... all except one user who throughout it all had complained long and hard to her ISP who did absolutley zilch, nada, nothing. 
So as far as the rest of us on numerous ISPs were happy again problem sorted...  she wasnt and was still getting much slower speeds than the rest of us..  She was with Tiscali.


--------------------

>> Thing I want to save money

Unfortunately thats the crux of it, a decent service does cost a little bit more.  You can apply that to anything in life..  you pays your money you makes your choice.  You either buy a pound of cheap mincemeat or a nice steak..  they may both come from the same cow  but theres a reason why one costs more.
At the end of the day if Morrisons keep selling meat thats rotten, then you move your custom elsewhere and go shop at Tescos in future.

>> Could I downgrade it to Dial Up? My father doesn't want to loose his email address as all of his accounts etc use that email address?

Possibly - I had a lineone email account and website (later taken over by tiscali), which I could still access for years.

>> Thing is, I will be doing GCSEs next year and wanted an easier router than changing ISP,

I once changed ISP's and ISP reliant email addresses smack bang in the middle of doing my final disseration (and bringing up a child and looking after a house on my own).  Yes its a PITA remembering them all.. but its doable.

The last time I changed ISPs (earlier this year) it was a doddle because I dont have mail etc reliant on the ISP. So consider the likes of gmail as an alternative if you dont want to go the expense of your own domain.

-----

The letter is fine. :)

I really do hope that Tiscali manage to sort this out for you, we have tried to help and support you all we can and give you advise and will continue to hope that they do..
Other than that your only option if they dont pull their finger out is to move on elsewhere to an ISP that would sort it.
Title: Re: No Connection
Post by: dave.m on August 19, 2008, 03:53:56 PM
Quote
I once changed ISP's and ISP reliant email addresses smack bang in the middle of doing my final disseration (and bringing up a child and looking after a house on my own).
  :'(

But you women always claim you can multi-task. Us fellas don't do it.   :no:  :no:

dave  :lol:
Title: Re: No Connection
Post by: kitz on August 19, 2008, 04:06:52 PM
OT Alert!

I'm not as good at it now as I used to be Im afraid.   Once upon a time I there used to always be music playing in the house..  but that stopped when I started coding.   For some reason I cant code and listen to music or the radio.
Title: Re: No Connection
Post by: jid on August 19, 2008, 05:05:40 PM
Thanks kitz.

I will send the email tonight so that it should arrive in their inbox in the morning!

I will keep you updated as to what happens, and whether or not I go to Sky or the issues are fixed with Tiscali (which I hope they are).

As I have said before, £19.99 a month for Line Rental, Calls to UK and International and BBand isn't bad even though it doesn't do Tiscali's Finance Department any favours!
Title: Re: No Connection
Post by: Ezzer on August 20, 2008, 12:38:19 AM
One suggestion in case it eases thing's. If you don't use sig (or signature) for your emails then it may help in repetitive addtional info.

(to find it if not used already you click on insert when formulating a e-mail to be sent and it should be the first option)

Most would use this to have a...

Best regards
Joe Bloggs

at the end of each e-mail. However you can expand on this and bearing in mind you can set it to add this to each e-mail sent automaticaly, you can have other info like contact addresses, numbers and the like.

And then on from there say a big text point note stating, "by the way my new current working e-mail will be from now on..xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, please up date this to your records

For instance some people may have a second signature set up where they copy and paste the web address after say looking up their postcode from a site such as multimap.co.uk and in rural areas do the same again after licking on aerial photo so when e-mailing someone who may need to visit. they have a link to find your home and in the case of aerial photo, be able to look for visual clues around your area to visit.

I know this is a fudge around a wrong situation which you shouldn't be in, however should it come to this then it may make life just that little easyer

Well written letter by the way methinks
Title: Re: No Connection
Post by: jid on August 20, 2008, 05:23:31 PM
Thanks Ezzer.

i will keep it in mind :)
Title: Re: No Connection
Post by: kitz on August 21, 2008, 12:43:15 PM
Updated info

Quote
Your line has an attenuation of 29db and under normal circumstances I would expect you to be able to support a higher rate service, however, there is no such thing as "the norm" with Broadband. Your SNR is low for your line attenuation, and your attainable rate is not too good either, but confirms the 4MB profile is the correct one for your line.

29dB atten line should be capable of much more than 4Mb.   
The thing that concerns me is that the engineer reported no fault found and that he synced fine from the master socket using his equipment.

Did you ask about changing to an NTE faceplate as recommended in the checklist I prepared.  The NTE5 would make  future diagnostics far easier.  I'm surprised that the engineer didnt do so.

Are you always connected in the master socket - its very possible that the fault could be somewhere on the extension cabling.  BT will only check and test from the master socket - any internal wiring is your own responsibility.

Quote
I changed your profile last night (17:30) to an adaptive 4MB profile to see if it would better cope with the changing SNR you're reporting. The stats you posted last night reflect this. This is the last change I can make for you,

I have concerns that when the engineer visited you were on the 4Mb profile which because of the surplus SNR may have been masking any problems such as error counts and SNR fluctuations

Quote
We've exhausted all avenues for diagnostics and checked everything we possibly can. Your current downstream speed is acceptable as is your current Upstream for the profile you are on. /snip/
but I have to draw the line somewhere. We will not be able to offer you further assistance through the forums.

Tiscali deem that 4Mb is acceptable for your line and pardon the pun, but "drawn a line" to giving you any further assistance.

Doesnt explain why you were previously capable of getting much higher speeds. :-\
Title: Re: No Connection
Post by: jid on August 21, 2008, 03:58:53 PM
I am now always connecting at the master socket and my SNR is 2147483646dB!

I have emailed complaints as the Forums team just ignore my posts now, they obviously couldn't care less about trying to do something, other people have had engineers, Port Changes, Cab checks the lot!

As they are getting an attenuation of 29dB and my router reports 30dB, I though I would try with a modem, just to check make sure the router hadn't gone, same readings and as it was a modem, it dropped out a lot more >:(

I asked the engineer if he would fit a new master and he said he didn't have one with him?  :-\

BT have installed the extension I run the Broadband off, its the round like white cable, i understand its better quality?

What I can't understand, I sync at the full 4meg on a 4 & 6meg profile yet they still claim my line isn't capable of more?

Regards

Jamie
Title: Re: No Connection
Post by: kitz on August 21, 2008, 08:51:16 PM
I think the problem with your case probably is that although we all know that your line should be capable (and has been capable) of more...  to tiscali 4Mb is a reasonable sync speed. :/

>> I asked the engineer if he would fit a new master and he said he didn't have one with him? 
:(

>> its the round like white cable, i understand its better quality?

Its supposed to be yes..  but its still capable of picking up interfence.
I cant remember if Ive mentioned this before... probably have but you have tried removing the ring-wire?
http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/socket.htm
Title: Re: No Connection
Post by: jid on August 21, 2008, 09:09:18 PM
Ye did the ring - wire, made no diff ???

I will be honest, the forums team are great, although I hate to say this, support do get things done better!!  :police:

Although they are in India, writing a letter always gets a reply from the UK, so they understand the issues better.

I am keeping my fingers crossed that they will do something, not just mess with profiles, as I added to the email that I want them to investigate more thouorghly than changing a Line Profile :no:

Will it be likely that another engineer will be needed, after sorting the profile not to mask the SNR?
Title: Re: No Connection
Post by: Ezzer on August 21, 2008, 10:09:21 PM
Hold on a mo' "Your SNR is low for your line attenuation" where did that one come from ?
Title: Re: No Connection
Post by: jid on August 22, 2008, 09:20:55 AM
This from Tiscali:-
Quote
Hi,

I'll try and answer your questions:
Firstly, I don't know why the BT engineer said what you say he said as this will be impossible. They cannot monitor your Internet service as you are not connected to their Internet service.

Your line has an attenuation of 29db and under normal circumstances I would expect you to be able to support a higher rate service, however, there is no such thing as "the norm" with Broadband. Your SNR is low for your line attenuation, and your attainable rate is not too good either, but confirms the 4MB profile is the correct one for your line. These are the stats from our network interface monitoring tool:
Quote:
Downstream SNR: 10 db
Downstream Attenuation: 29 db
Downstream Attainable Rate: 4756 kbps
Downstream Current Rate: 4096 kbps
Downstream Interleave Delay: 8 ms

I would suggest from these stats that your line (although a good length) is of poor quality. I changed your profile last night (17:30) to an adaptive 4MB profile to see if it would better cope with the changing SNR you're reporting. The stats you posted last night reflect this. This is the last change I can make for you, I have nothing left. We have eliminated the exchange equipment and sent you a broadband specialist from BT. He reported back no problem found (this would usually result in a bill for £150.00 + vat being sent to you, but we've agreed to waive this). The only thing thing remaining is a possible problem with the internal wiring (your house, extensions, micro filters etc), but I expect you've eliminated this from previous diagnostics with Paul.

As for who you should write to next, I can't say.
All I can say is there is nothing further my team can do for you. We've exhausted all avenues for diagnostics and checked everything we possibly can. Your current downstream speed is acceptable as is your current Upstream for the profile you are on.
I know this is not the answer your looking for, but I have to draw the line somewhere. We will not be able to offer you further assistance through the forums.
I'm sorry.
__________________
Regards

My SNR is most of the time reporting 2147483646dB or 1dB. I therefore reported Low SNRs to Tiscali and that is how the engineer got sent out. They are now saying the above.
Title: Re: No Connection
Post by: jid on August 22, 2008, 04:39:25 PM
I have just noticed that I am getting loads of HEC errors!
Quote
AR7 DSL Modem Statistics:
--------------------------------
[DSL Modem Stats]
        US Connection Rate:     256     DS Connection Rate:     4096
        DS Line Attenuation:    30      DS Margin:              2147483647
        US Line Attenuation:    16      US Margin:              30
        US Payload :            21937776        DS Payload:             24128721
6
        US Superframe Cnt :     1570342 DS Superframe Cnt:      1570342
        US Transmit Power :     11      DS Transmit Power:      19
        LOS errors:             0       SEF errors:             0
        Errored Seconds:        0       Severely Err Secs:      0
        Frame mode:             3       Max Frame mode:         0
        Trained Path:           1       US Peak Cell Rate:      603
        Trained Mode:           3       Selected Mode:          1
        ATUC Vendor Code:       4946544E        ATUC Revision:  2
        Hybrid Selected:        1       Trellis:                1
        Showtime Count:         1       DS Max Attainable Bit Rate: 5696 kbps
        BitSwap:                1       US Max Attainable Bit Rate:     n/a
        Annex:                  AnxA    psd_mask_qualifier: 0x0000
        ATUC ghsVid:  b5 00 49 46 54 4e 71 53
        T1413Vid: 00 00         T1413Rev: 00            VendorRev: 00
        ATUR ghsVid:  44 4c 69 6e 6b 00 00 00
        T1413Vid: 00 00 T1413Rev: 00    VendorRev: 00

        [Upstream (TX) Interleave path]
        CRC:    1       FEC:    0       NCD:    0
        LCD:    0       HEC:    0

        [Downstream (RX) Interleave path]
        CRC:    55872   FEC:    52844481        NCD:    0
        LCD:    0       HEC:    0

        [Upstream (TX) Fast path]
        CRC:    0       FEC:    0       NCD:    1
        LCD:    0       HEC:    0

        [Downstream (RX) Fast path]
        CRC:    0       FEC:    0       NCD:    0
        LCD:    0       HEC:    0

[ATM Stats]
        [Upstream/TX]
        Good Cell Cnt:  457037
        Idle Cell Cnt:  15661190

        Tx Packets Dropped Count:       0
        Tx Bad Packets Count:   0

        [Downstream/RX)]
        Good Cell Cnt:  5026817
        Idle Cell Cnt:  252813938
        Bad Hec Cell Cnt:       50795
        Overflow Dropped Cell Cnt:      0
        Rx Packets Dropped Count:       0
        Rx Bad Packets Count:   0


[SAR AAL5 Stats]
        Tx PDU's:       129951
        Rx PDU's:       199057
        Tx Total Bytes: 15541166
        Rx Total Bytes: 232084635
        Tx Total Error Counts:  0
        Rx Total Error Counts:  2202


[OAM Stats]
        Near End F5 Loop Back Count:    0
        Near End F4 Loop Back Count:    0
        Far End F5 Loop Back Count:     0
        Far End F4 Loop Back Count:     0
        SAR OAM Ping Response Drop Count=15

My attainable rate has gone up though, and my Transmit Power seems fine at 19db? Also seems that the line is interleaved?
Title: Re: No Connection
Post by: kitz on August 22, 2008, 08:52:19 PM
I dont know what that relates to  Im afraid since the HECs look ok here

      [Downstream (RX) Interleave path]
        CRC:    55872   FEC:    52844481        NCD:    0
        LCD:    0       HEC:    0


and this is fine

Errored Seconds:        0       Severely Err Secs:      0


If you had lots of HEC's raking up I'd expect to see at least some errored seconds..
Theres also a train of thought that at least some (but not all) HEC errors may add to the CRC count too depending upon how many bits were errored in the ATM cell.
Its possibly some historic count?  Dont know sorry.
Title: Re: No Connection
Post by: jid on August 22, 2008, 09:03:00 PM
What is the Attainable rate, as I noticed it varies all of the time. Is it what the line can support or what it can sync upto?

Thanks
Title: Re: No Connection
Post by: kitz on August 22, 2008, 09:05:13 PM
Have a read of linestats explanation (http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/linestats_explanation.htm).... and also Router stat errors (http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/linestats_errors.htm)
Title: Re: No Connection
Post by: jid on August 24, 2008, 08:52:06 PM
I have been noticing recently, I put the router on in the morning, by about 7pm, the SNR is in funny figures.

Then by around half 8ish, the Speed has dropped and I have to resync to be able to use the connection?

The sync is the same, 4096kbps?

Is this a congestion thing or something?
Title: Re: No Connection
Post by: kitz on August 25, 2008, 04:55:31 PM
>> the SNR is in funny figures.

More likely that your SNR has dropped into negative figures, some routers cant display negative SNR and show a large number instead.
Title: Re: No Connection
Post by: jid on August 26, 2008, 09:22:13 AM
Thanks Kitz!

Ping seems a bit long:-
(https://forum.kitz.co.uk/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.speedtest.net%2Fresult%2F313897671.png&hash=c3d18f8d36e04554c7532a036b95351386d29939)
Title: Re: No Connection
Post by: mr_chris on August 26, 2008, 11:40:05 AM
Looks like Tiscali have you on a fixed 4096 sync setting.

Low SNR means your router can't 'hear' the signal above the noise on the line, and so errors occur in the signal. Sometimes the router is able to fathom out what was actually meant, but other times the router has to request a retransmission of the problem packet. It's exactly like trying to talk to somebody in a noisy room, and either not hearing a complete sentence but still being able to fathom out the words you didn't hear properly, or not hearing the sentence properly and having to say "pardon?".

This is why speed drops when the SNR gets too low, errors rack up and packets have to be retransmitted, so the effective speed of 'good' packets is slower than it should be.

As for the ping time, could be a number of issues, not necessarily a problem, but unfortunately, Tiscali aren't known for the quality of their network, as we've said many times before!
Title: Re: No Connection
Post by: jid on August 26, 2008, 12:53:41 PM
OK

That's why I need to sometimes refresh pages then is it?

So that is being caused by this fixed profile. :'(

Title: Re: No Connection
Post by: kitz on August 31, 2008, 12:40:08 AM
>> That's why I need to sometimes refresh pages then is it?

Possibly yes :/
Title: Re: No Connection
Post by: jid on August 31, 2008, 10:36:25 AM
I have now had confirmation that my email has been read as I had a read receipt sent at 3am this morning.

Keep your fingers crossed now and hopefully I will be getting somewhere with this!  :blush:
Title: Re: No Connection
Post by: jid on August 31, 2008, 03:09:57 PM
They have now put me on an 8meg Adaptive profile!!!

That was really difficult wasn't it!

I will keep my eye on it now.
Quote
        US Connection Rate:     256     DS Connection Rate:     5952
        DS Line Attenuation:    30      DS Margin:              8
        US Line Attenuation:    16      US Margin:              30
        US Payload :            1033392 DS Payload:             6519264
        US Superframe Cnt :     34974   DS Superframe Cnt:      34974
        US Transmit Power :     11      DS Transmit Power:      19
        LOS errors:             0       SEF errors:             0
        Errored Seconds:        0       Severely Err Secs:      0
        Frame mode:             3       Max Frame mode:         0
        Trained Path:           1       US Peak Cell Rate:      603
        Trained Mode:           3       Selected Mode:          1
        ATUC Vendor Code:       4946544E        ATUC Revision:  2
        Hybrid Selected:        1       Trellis:                1
        Showtime Count:         2       DS Max Attainable Bit Rate: 5952 kbps
        BitSwap:                1       US Max Attainable Bit Rate:     n/a
        Annex:                  AnxA    psd_mask_qualifier: 0x0000
        ATUC ghsVid:  b5 00 49 46 54 4e 71 53
        T1413Vid: 00 00         T1413Rev: 00            VendorRev: 00
        ATUR ghsVid:  44 4c 69 6e 6b 00 00 00
        T1413Vid: 00 00 T1413Rev: 00    VendorRev: 00

        [Upstream (TX) Interleave path]
        CRC:    1       FEC:    0       NCD:    0
        LCD:    0       HEC:    0

        [Downstream (RX) Interleave path]
        CRC:    0       FEC:    15      NCD:    0
        LCD:    0       HEC:    0

        [Upstream (TX) Fast path]
        CRC:    0       FEC:    0       NCD:    1
        LCD:    0       HEC:    0

        [Downstream (RX) Fast path]
        CRC:    0       FEC:    0       NCD:    0
        LCD:    0       HEC:    0

[ATM Stats]
        [Upstream/TX]
        Good Cell Cnt:  21529
        Idle Cell Cnt:  337449

        Tx Packets Dropped Count:       0
        Tx Bad Packets Count:   19

        [Downstream/RX)]
        Good Cell Cnt:  135818
        Idle Cell Cnt:  8210308
        Bad Hec Cell Cnt:       0
        Overflow Dropped Cell Cnt:      0
        Rx Packets Dropped Count:       0
        Rx Bad Packets Count:   0


[SAR AAL5 Stats]
        Tx PDU's:       118386
        Rx PDU's:       172861
        Tx Total Bytes: 16562204
        Rx Total Bytes: 183806645
        Tx Total Error Counts:  0
        Rx Total Error Counts:  462


[OAM Stats]
        Near End F5 Loop Back Count:    0
        Near End F4 Loop Back Count:    0
        Far End F5 Loop Back Count:     0
        Far End F4 Loop Back Count:     0
        SAR OAM Ping Response Drop Count=15
Title: Re: No Connection
Post by: mr_chris on August 31, 2008, 03:20:15 PM
Well, at least you're on an adaptive profile now - which they should have done before. Putting you on a 4096 fixed rate profile was pretty dumb, but was probably done in response to your quest for faster sync.

However, given your line fault, I do predict that you will end up at some point (probably night-time) with a sync of LESS than 4Mb. It's up to you whether you stick with whatever it ends up at, or if you can be bothered to reboot every morning to try and up the speed.

I suggest you leave the router to sync/resync as it wants to for a few days, that way it'll find its own sync it's comfortable with.

Install routerstats and do some logging of speeds etc, if you haven't already.
Title: Re: No Connection
Post by: jid on August 31, 2008, 04:35:06 PM
Yeh, its Adaptive upto 8meg now.

Before they were capping it at 6meg Adaptive, so at least I can attain 8meg if my line will choose to!

I cant use Router Stats with my router for some reason I spent a whole day trying to set it up ages ago and I just couldn't get it going!

D Link DSL-G624T
Title: Re: No Connection
Post by: jid on August 31, 2008, 06:42:56 PM
If I resynced it on a low SNR, will it sync lower then?

As i can resync it a few times and it will go up!

I am on this profile now:-

8M_896     Down8160     Up:896           Adaptive:Adaptive      12db           Interleaved - Size 8

Whereas before I was on :-
4096 High SNR     Down 4096     Up 256           Adaptive:Fixed                 Interleave     Size 8

The lady I spoke to on the phone said the profile is an 8meg one, therefore it will go up higher than 6meg.

Hopefully, if I sync in the morning I will have a better sync than EVER before! I will keep you updated.
However, like Chris said, I will be leaving it on all of the time for a while to see how it copes.

The SNR isn't too bad yet :-\ 8dB. Best ever for this time of night!
Title: Re: No Connection
Post by: jid on September 01, 2008, 09:19:10 AM
I have synced at 6304kbps this morning so that means they are not capping me to 6meg anymore. Wohooo! :lol:  ;D

How would I go about getting it higher than that?

Is it just a case of waiting for it to sync higher?
Title: Re: No Connection
Post by: jid on September 01, 2008, 10:52:28 AM
Well the SNR is still in the funny figures so its still low!

Back on the phone again lol!
Title: Re: No Connection
Post by: jid on September 01, 2008, 06:53:50 PM
Its behaved for most of the day, staying at 12dB :)

However its now dropping again, only when it rains though? :'(

Currently 12dB but every now and then it will go down to 4dB and drop.
Title: Re: No Connection
Post by: kitz on September 02, 2008, 10:16:01 AM
Your line will drop if theres too many errors and as the SNRM falls and becomes too low to hear the signal, showing that as we suspected very early on there is an underlying problem somewhere on the line

I just noticed your upstream is at 256 from your last stats. 
As chris suggested in his post the other day I would leave it for a while and see if its able to settle at its own level.
Title: Re: No Connection
Post by: jid on September 02, 2008, 10:27:13 AM
Yes, that is what I am doing at the moment.

Thing is, it isn't dropping out and resyncing so the Sync Rate is always the same :no:

Current: 5120kbps
(https://forum.kitz.co.uk/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.speedtest.net%2Fresult%2F317122366.png&hash=55c92cc4a601ab0ffb7c60d1a5cd91f4d5f75243)
Title: Re: No Connection
Post by: kitz on September 02, 2008, 10:31:54 AM
That 256 upstream limit is still there too  ???
Title: Re: No Connection
Post by: Ezzer on September 02, 2008, 10:55:25 AM
Jid, are you fed via an overhead cable or underground to the property ?
Title: Re: No Connection
Post by: jid on September 02, 2008, 11:00:53 AM
Quote
>>Jid, are you fed via an overhead cable or underground to the property ?

It goes from the house to the pole, then the rest is underground all of the way to the Exchange.

I have attached the Map from the ADSL Line Checker page.

[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: No Connection
Post by: jid on September 02, 2008, 11:02:36 AM
That 256 upstream limit is still there too  ???

Yes the lady on the phone told me that the Upstream is always slow, I told her it had been 448kbps before but she wouldn't have it!

Title: Re: No Connection
Post by: Ezzer on September 02, 2008, 11:24:59 AM
The overhead cable (dropwire) what does it look like ?
Title: Re: No Connection
Post by: kitz on September 02, 2008, 11:26:56 AM
That 256 upstream limit is still there too  ???

Yes the lady on the phone told me that the Upstream is always slow, I told her it had been 448kbps before but she wouldn't have it!



We seem to be back here were you were a few months back  :-\
http://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php?topic=2247.msg71057#msg71057
Title: Re: No Connection
Post by: jid on September 02, 2008, 11:31:22 AM
Its in a black plastic covering.

The engineer who came said its the newer type if thats a help?

[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: No Connection
Post by: jid on September 02, 2008, 11:32:24 AM
That 256 upstream limit is still there too  ???

Yes the lady on the phone told me that the Upstream is always slow, I told her it had been 448kbps before but she wouldn't have it!



We seem to be back here were you were a few months back  :-\
http://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php?topic=2247.msg71057#msg71057

I know! Back on an adaptive profile! :(

At least I am not capped at 4meg anymore!

Could it be possible that the line has degraded somewhere and I just have to live with it?

(https://forum.kitz.co.uk/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi113.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fn217%2Fjamieidavies%2Fstats.jpg&hash=f4b810f901db1dd79b6839dfcecc50b3b7af1c3d)
Title: Calling Tiscali, Profile Advice?
Post by: jid on September 02, 2008, 12:32:51 PM
Well I just resynced at 6080kbps  ;D

I am going to ring them now and see if thats as good as it is going to get.

I also need to tell them that I am still getting Low SNR Readings in the evenings.

What profile should I ask them to put me on, what Target SNR Etc?
Title: Re: No Connection
Post by: jid on September 02, 2008, 01:36:03 PM
I have just called them and it seems that a Second Line Engineer will be forwarded the case by 4pm today and that I should hear back from them within 24hours.

I told them on Sunday when I called that I was having no problems connecting at 7000kbps and that I was only at 5800kbps. It therefore has to go to a Second Line Engineer as they have the systems to change line settings (profiles!) etc.

Therefore, they have within 24hours to call back. She said hopefully it will be sometime today though, so that seems promising.

They just had better not say that they are going to change the profile! That will not fix the issue.

Is the case that they need to send another engineer again?
Title: Re: No Connection
Post by: Ezzer on September 02, 2008, 02:21:09 PM
Was clitching at straws, the type of cable with the black outer insulation is the up to date type, difficult to make out on the photo but that looks to probably be the latest type of block at the top of the pole judging how far it projects from the pole so "blue beans" wouldn't be an issue. Though I've got to admit it's wrong to try and diagnose from remote for the network.

You current figures look great though, so far, fingers crossed.
Title: Re: No Connection
Post by: jid on September 02, 2008, 03:02:40 PM
SNR Margin        9dB
SyncDown    5920kbps
Sync UP:          256kbps

It seems that the connection goes funny when we have really heavy rain :-\
Title: Re: No Connection
Post by: Ezzer on September 02, 2008, 03:12:49 PM
Which bodes the next question, could it be rain causing something to the network. or is it rain affecting something else which the broad band is beginning to hear.
Title: Re: No Connection
Post by: jid on September 02, 2008, 04:39:43 PM
Which bodes the next question, could it be rain causing something to the network. or is it rain affecting something else which the broad band is beginning to hear.

What could the broadband be hearing that's being affected by rain?

SNR Margin:     0dB

Has been for 10mins now?

Title: Re: No Connection
Post by: kitz on September 03, 2008, 10:46:26 AM
Water on the line is a known cause of problems with adsl.   Its well worth mentioning this observation.
Title: Re: No Connection
Post by: jid on September 03, 2008, 04:28:23 PM
Had an email last night at 11:57 that it has been passed onto the Technical Support Team and that I should hear something back within 24hours.

I will make sure that the router isn't re synced as it is syncing quite low: 4768kbps
SNR: 5dB

Hopefully it will stay like that so that the person who rings will see that the SNR is low, if he doesn't I will ask him to look!  >:(

They don't believe you half the time and just put your profile up or something!
Title: Re: No Connection
Post by: jid on September 03, 2008, 05:35:07 PM
Also, when they ring. What tests can I ask them to run as I am on the phone?

Anyone have any suggestions?
Title: Re: No Connection
Post by: kitz on September 03, 2008, 05:43:49 PM
Theres no particular tests they can run... and nothing to tell them other than what weve already said.

You need to tell them that at certain times of the day particularly noticable during wet weather your SNR Margin takes a dive, errors start increasing, and eventually your line drops.

Ask them if they also find it acceptable that a 30dB line can only sync at a maximum of 6Mbps and sometimes less..
A 30dB line should be able to sync at the full 8Mbps without disconnecting.
Title: Re: No Connection
Post by: jid on September 03, 2008, 05:45:54 PM
OK, will do thanks Kitz  ;D

Fingers crossed they ring

Update: No call as of yet but the good thing is the SNR is on the fall so i will be able to mention that if they ever do call me >:(
Title: Re: No Connection
Post by: jid on September 03, 2008, 08:14:43 PM
Well, still no call >:(

If they don't call by 9pm, I will email them back asking why they didn't call me :o

Stats:-
SNR: 2147483646dB
SNR UP: 29dB

Sync Down: 4768kbps < what it synced at this morning, as it has resynced at all today...
Sync Up     : 256kbps

Title: Re: No Connection
Post by: jid on September 03, 2008, 08:44:46 PM
I have emailed them this:-

Quote
I did not receive any call today?

The Current speed test result is:-
Download: 3.62mbps
Upload: 0.21mbps

Current Sync Speed: 4320kbps

I see that my Upstream speeds have also dropped from 448kbps to only 256kbps, is this part of the problem?

My SNR reading seem to dip to readings such as 0dB and 2147483644dB at random intervals during the day and are constantly low in the evenings?

The current reading is: 2147483644dB

I feel that these stats are poor for my 30dB line.

I haven't mentioned the rain as we have had heavy rain today but the stats haven't dropped when raining like yesterday.

The current reading: 4dB
Seems more promising at least, but it won't stay there for long ???
Title: Re: No Connection
Post by: jid on September 04, 2008, 02:12:46 PM
I wasn't here to take a call from them earlier so now they have put me back on a 4meg fixed profile!!!!!!

Has a high SNR however I came home to find the SNR was 0dB! >:D

I was looking at the list of Line Profiles Tiscali have and can see that they have a "Very High SNR 8meg" profile, I wonder if this would help?

They have said to leave it for 24hours but I am not! This is ridiculous and I am getting impatient. >:D
Title: Re: No Connection
Post by: roseway on September 04, 2008, 06:56:13 PM
Why don't you just do what you've been advised to do more than once, and migrate to a decent ISP?
Title: Re: No Connection
Post by: kitz on September 04, 2008, 06:57:10 PM
>> This is ridiculous and I am getting impatient.

It is ridiculous.. Sorry jid but this has been going round and round in circles for over 3 months now, and Tiscali keep messing around with the profiles as they are doing arent doing jack all for your line.  Its too unsteady because there is an underlying problem somewhere between the exchange and your home.

You should have a good line and you should be able to sync at the full 8Mb.. but you cant because of the SNR problem which several people have confirmed looks like a fault on the actual line which can only be fixed by a BT engineer.

Tiscali messing around with profiles aint going to do nothing until the underlying problem is fixed.
All the messing with profiles is doing is putting a sticky plaster over a leaky pipe.  :'(


Title: Re: No Connection
Post by: jid on September 04, 2008, 07:01:31 PM
>> This is ridiculous and I am getting impatient.

It is ridiculous.. Sorry jid but this has been going round and round in circles for over 3 months now, and Tiscali keep messing around with the profiles as they are doing arent doing jack all for your line.  Its too unsteady because there is an underlying problem somewhere between the exchange and your home.

You should have a good line and you should be able to sync at the full 8Mb.. but you cant because of the SNR problem which several people have confirmed looks like a fault on the actual line which can only be fixed by a BT engineer.

Tiscali messing around with profiles aint going to do nothing until the underlying problem is fixed.
All the messing with profiles is doing is putting a sticky plaster over a leaky pipe.  :'(




Well many thanks to jeffbb, I have now got the details of the High Level Complaints Exec from Tiscali:-
Quote

Richard Lawrence <Richard.Lawrence@uk.tiscali.com>

Richard Lawrence

High Level Complaints Executive
tel:+44 (0) 207 087 2121
fax:+44 (0) 207 087 2273
mob:+44 (0) 7971331395

Tiscali UK Ltd
20 Broadwick Street,
London W1F 8HT


I will email him this evening and see what he can do for this.
Title: Re: No Connection
Post by: jid on September 04, 2008, 07:05:50 PM
Why don't you just do what you've been advised to do more than once, and migrate to a decent ISP?


Because they have been a decent ISP for the past 5years!

I feel if they can fix this they can be back in the good books again.
Title: Re: No Connection
Post by: roseway on September 04, 2008, 07:09:06 PM
The length of this interminable thread suggests that your faith is misplaced. To be honest, I don't think that there is any more useful help which this forum can give you on the subject. Everything which can usefully be said has already been said several times. If Tiscali do eventually get the problem sorted, then we will all be delighted to hear that, but in the meantime I see no point in continuing to go round in circles.

Title: Re: No Connection
Post by: Oranged on September 04, 2008, 07:22:37 PM
I feel if they can fix this they can be back in the good books again.

They've had from 5 June to sort it.....that's now 3 months.....believe me, it won't get sorted by Tiscali in year of Sundays  :no:  :no:  :no:
Title: Re: No Connection
Post by: jid on September 04, 2008, 07:29:56 PM
kitz and all,

Many thanks for your endless reading and replies with regards to this (extremely) long Thread.

Especially a big thanks to Kitz and Ezzer for their knowledgeable posts and comments and to roseway, mr_chris an all others for your comments and views on my Tiscali experience.

I will be emailing the person I posted earlier and will await an outcome before updating everyone here.

Many Thanks to everyone who posted. :)

Kind Regards

Jamie  :)
Title: Static Noise on Line
Post by: jid on September 05, 2008, 01:48:58 PM
Hi All,

I think that the line fault has finally come out on the line.

When I pick it up there is the sound you get after you hang up and an awful crackling noise over it?

I have unplugged the Sky box but no diff. Is this the line fault finally coming out?

How will I report it? BT or Tiscali?

Although the Broadband is still working?
Title: Re: No Connection
Post by: soms on September 05, 2008, 01:55:40 PM
If you have a noisy line then it is classed as a voice fault.

As such you need to report it to your telephone service provider, so if BT provides your voice services then report it to them as a noisy line.
Title: Re: No Connection
Post by: jid on September 05, 2008, 02:08:25 PM
Spoke to soon! Its cleared now ???
Title: Re: No Connection
Post by: jid on September 05, 2008, 04:16:19 PM
Here is the email I had from Tiscali Technical Support (not HLC)

Quote
Thank you for contacting Tiscali Technical Support.

I understand from your email that you are still experiencing connectivity issue.

Kindly accept my apology for the inconvenience this has caused you.

I have performed some speed tests on your line and has refreshed the line circuit. I have also forwarded your case to the network engineers and the issue will be resolved immediately. I have also checked and found that engineers are investigating the issue

What is a Line Circuit then? As they have done that before a few years ago?
Title: Re: No Connection
Post by: Ezzer on September 05, 2008, 05:04:24 PM
"Refreshed the line curcuit" ? wha...

Sorry but to me that sounds as if he's been dilligent enough to wipe the lines on his rotary washing line before hanging his laundry out to dry. :hmm:
Title: Re: No Connection
Post by: mr_chris on September 05, 2008, 05:20:38 PM
"Refreshed the line curcuit" ? wha...

Sorry but to me that sounds as if he's been dilligent enough to wipe the lines on his rotary washing line before hanging his laundry out to dry. :hmm:

:lol: :lol: :lol:
Title: Re: No Connection
Post by: kitz on September 05, 2008, 05:23:06 PM
>>> "Refreshed the line curcuit" ?

That means that they have disconnected the PPP session.  Refreshing the circuit nomally means clearing any stale sessions.

Title: Re: No Connection
Post by: mr_chris on September 05, 2008, 05:28:34 PM
>>> "Refreshed the line curcuit" ?

That means that they have disconnected the PPP session.  Refreshing the circuit nomally means clearing any stale sessions.



Fancy name for booting your connection eh??!! Once again.... :lol: .. etc... ;)
Title: Re: No Connection
Post by: jid on September 05, 2008, 05:42:11 PM
Very fancy name then lol   :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: Most of my sessions are stale...gone off actually ;)

Only positive is that it's been passed to network engineers!

They are yet to ring today, I found that the phone hadn't been put down properly earlier and had been like it for half hour so its possible they rung then, otherwise, hopefully they will ring "After 4pm"?

Who knows!
Title: Leave Router On?
Post by: jid on September 05, 2008, 06:17:23 PM
Hi All,

Need some advice with my router.

Is it better for the line if I leave the router constantly plugged in and never turned off, to see how it settles overnight?

So that it can drop out itself etc?
Title: Re: Leave Router On?
Post by: Oranged on September 05, 2008, 07:11:04 PM
Is it better for the line if I leave the router constantly plugged in and never turned off, to see how it settles overnight?

That reminds me, a few pages ago you said something which indicated to me that you were switching your router on and off and I meant to post then.

If you are doing that then that ain't doing your connection any favours  :o
Title: Re: Leave Router On?
Post by: jid on September 05, 2008, 07:17:20 PM
Is it better for the line if I leave the router constantly plugged in and never turned off, to see how it settles overnight?

That reminds me, a few pages ago you said something which indicated to me that you were switching your router on and off and I meant to post then.

If you are doing that then that ain't doing your connection any favours  :o

I have now decided that I will leave it on all of the time to see how it performs when/if I am back on adaptive profiles.

Latest stats:-
Quote
AR7 DSL Modem Statistics:
--------------------------------
[DSL Modem Stats]
        US Connection Rate:     256     DS Connection Rate:     4096
        DS Line Attenuation:    30      DS Margin:              2
        US Line Attenuation:    16      US Margin:              27
        US Payload :            15485616        DS Payload:             20395622
4
        US Superframe Cnt :     344130  DS Superframe Cnt:      344130
        US Transmit Power :     11      DS Transmit Power:      19
        LOS errors:             0       SEF errors:             0
        Errored Seconds:        0       Severely Err Secs:      0
        Frame mode:             3       Max Frame mode:         0
        Trained Path:           1       US Peak Cell Rate:      603
        Trained Mode:           3       Selected Mode:          1
        ATUC Vendor Code:       4946544E        ATUC Revision:  2
        Hybrid Selected:        1       Trellis:                1
        Showtime Count:         1       DS Max Attainable Bit Rate: 4672 kbps
        BitSwap:                1       US Max Attainable Bit Rate:     n/a
        Annex:                  AnxA    psd_mask_qualifier: 0x0000
        ATUC ghsVid:  b5 00 49 46 54 4e 71 53
        T1413Vid: 00 00         T1413Rev: 00            VendorRev: 00
        ATUR ghsVid:  44 4c 69 6e 6b 00 00 00
        T1413Vid: 00 00 T1413Rev: 00    VendorRev: 00

        [Upstream (TX) Interleave path]
        CRC:    2       FEC:    0       NCD:    0
        LCD:    0       HEC:    0

        [Downstream (RX) Interleave path]
        CRC:    1051    FEC:    4012987 NCD:    0
        LCD:    0       HEC:    0

        [Upstream (TX) Fast path]
        CRC:    0       FEC:    0       NCD:    1
        LCD:    0       HEC:    0

        [Downstream (RX) Fast path]
        CRC:    0       FEC:    0       NCD:    0
        LCD:    0       HEC:    0

[ATM Stats]
        [Upstream/TX]
        Good Cell Cnt:  322617
        Idle Cell Cnt:  3209585

        Tx Packets Dropped Count:       0
        Tx Bad Packets Count:   0

        [Downstream/RX)]
        Good Cell Cnt:  4249088
        Idle Cell Cnt:  52265503
        Bad Hec Cell Cnt:       558
        Overflow Dropped Cell Cnt:      0
        Rx Packets Dropped Count:       0
        Rx Bad Packets Count:   0


[SAR AAL5 Stats]
        Tx PDU's:       99088
        Rx PDU's:       161274
        Tx Total Bytes: 10490526
        Rx Total Bytes: 198761289
        Tx Total Error Counts:  0
        Rx Total Error Counts:  560


[OAM Stats]
        Near End F5 Loop Back Count:    0
        Near End F4 Loop Back Count:    0
        Far End F5 Loop Back Count:     0
        Far End F4 Loop Back Count:     0
        SAR OAM Ping Response Drop Count=0
#

CRC error count seems quite high...due to low SNR?
Title: Re: No Connection
Post by: Oranged on September 05, 2008, 08:14:23 PM
I have been noticing recently, I put the router on in the morning, by about 7pm, the SNR is in funny figures. congestion thing or something?

Yes, found it on page 13..........you have been switching it off.

It's not necessarily the cause but I'll let the more learned members on here comment how much you've contributed to your own problem.
Title: Re: No Connection
Post by: jid on September 05, 2008, 08:15:44 PM
I have been noticing recently, I put the router on in the morning, by about 7pm, the SNR is in funny figures. congestion thing or something?

Yes, found it on page 13..........you have been switching it off.

It's not necessarily the cause but I'll let the more learned members on here comment how much you've contributed to your own problem.

Thanks for the reply, but bare in mind I am on Tiscali's LLU Platform and they have their own Profiling system and not one like BTs.
http://www.kitz.co.uk/isp/tiscali_llu.htm
Title: Re: No Connection
Post by: dave.m on September 05, 2008, 09:00:03 PM
I'll let the more learned members on here comment how much you've contributed to your own problem.

jid,

It would appear that you have been Tangoed by Oranged.

dave
Title: Re: No Connection
Post by: jid on September 05, 2008, 09:22:15 PM
lol

If I remember from my other thread. Kitz mentioned that Tiscali don't use bRAS profiling like BT and they just have standard profiles.

If anyone thinks otherwise do mention it, however I was having no probs when on Datastream and turning the router off every night.
Title: Re: No Connection
Post by: kitz on September 06, 2008, 12:32:31 AM
>> Is it better for the line if I leave the router constantly plugged in and never turned off, to see how it settles overnight? So that it can drop out itself etc?


« Reply #191 on: August 31, 2008, 03:20:15 PM »

Quote
I suggest you leave the router to sync/resync as it wants to for a few days, that way it'll find its own sync it's comfortable with.

« Reply #197 on: September 02, 2008, 10:16:01 AM »
Quote
As chris suggested in his post the other day I would leave it for a while and see if its able to settle at its own level.

>> Tiscali don't use bRAS profiling like BT and they just have standard profiles.

They dont have bRAS profiling, but they do have a DLM which manages their profiles.
Title: Re: No Connection
Post by: jid on September 06, 2008, 08:51:00 AM
Well, I left it on last night and it lost sync about every 20minutes.

Also I had to resync this morning to get on the web, even though it was connected, it wouldn't go to any webpages?

Had lots of these entries in the Router Logs? What is a System Call Error then?

Code: [Select]
Sep 6 06:57:50> Connection terminated.
Sep 6 06:57:50> System Call Error
Sep 6 06:57:50> connect(0.38): Device or resource busy
Sep 6 06:57:50> pppd 2.4.3 started by root, uid 0
Sep 6 06:57:50> PVC already opened. dmachan = 0
Sep 6 06:57:50> closing 0.0.38.5
Sep 6 06:57:50> tn7sar_teardown_complete called for channel 0
Sep 6 06:57:50> ChannelTeardown returned rc = 0
Sep 6 06:57:50> Connect: ppp0 {--} 0.38
Sep 6 06:58:01> ppp0

Title: Re: No Connection
Post by: kitz on September 06, 2008, 10:27:42 AM
Not sure - but PPP is usually the ISP bit... before that there was a device or resource busy message.
Possibly problems logging into your ISP or a router config problem.

>> even though it was connected, it wouldn't go to any webpages?

Sounds like you just have sync and not proper ISP access (PPP session)

-----------

Or alternatively I cant remember what router you use, but I do recall you recently updating your firmware... but someone experiencing similar disconnects after updating their dlink dsl504t
http://forums.whirlpool.net.au/forum-replies-archive.cfm/1019898.html
Title: Re: No Connection
Post by: jid on September 06, 2008, 10:37:08 AM
Here is the email from today:-
Quote
I would like to tell you that the 2nd level engineers have reset the profile for your account and they are monitoring the connection for 48 hours. I assure you that you will receive a callback within next 24 hours in order to check the speed which you are getting. I request you to wait till the 2nd level engineers contacts you.

I hope the above information will help you. Please feel free to contact us if you have any further issues. We will be happy to help you.

I am still on a fixed 4meg profile so they must have either imagined it or not done it yet, will keep you updated this morning.

Question on the ring-wire, I have a star wired system in my house and I had only disconnected the ring-wire from the master, but on reading your site, I have now done it on all of the other sockets in my house, 4 to be exact, did have five but it was a cheepo and have disconnected as I don't use it much:)

Here are the stats now:-
Code: [Select]
AR7 DSL Modem Statistics:
--------------------------------
[DSL Modem Stats]
        US Connection Rate:     256     DS Connection Rate:     4096
        DS Line Attenuation:    30      DS Margin:              17
        US Line Attenuation:    16      US Margin:              28
        US Payload :            898992  DS Payload:             2866224
        US Superframe Cnt :     25875   DS Superframe Cnt:      25875
        US Transmit Power :     11      DS Transmit Power:      19
        LOS errors:             0       SEF errors:             0
        Errored Seconds:        0       Severely Err Secs:      0
        Frame mode:             3       Max Frame mode:         0
        Trained Path:           1       US Peak Cell Rate:      603
        Trained Mode:           3       Selected Mode:          1
        ATUC Vendor Code:       4946544E        ATUC Revision:  2
        Hybrid Selected:        1       Trellis:                1
        Showtime Count:         5       DS Max Attainable Bit Rate: 4992 kbps
        BitSwap:                1       US Max Attainable Bit Rate:     n/a
        Annex:                  AnxA    psd_mask_qualifier: 0x0000
        ATUC ghsVid:  b5 00 49 46 54 4e 71 53
        T1413Vid: 00 00         T1413Rev: 00            VendorRev: 00
        ATUR ghsVid:  44 4c 69 6e 6b 00 00 00
        T1413Vid: 00 00 T1413Rev: 00    VendorRev: 00

        [Upstream (TX) Interleave path]
        CRC:    1       FEC:    0       NCD:    0
        LCD:    0       HEC:    0

        [Downstream (RX) Interleave path]
        CRC:    0       FEC:    0       NCD:    0
        LCD:    0       HEC:    0

        [Upstream (TX) Fast path]
        CRC:    0       FEC:    0       NCD:    1
        LCD:    0       HEC:    0

        [Downstream (RX) Fast path]
        CRC:    0       FEC:    0       NCD:    0
        LCD:    0       HEC:    0

[ATM Stats]
        [Upstream/TX]
        Good Cell Cnt:  18729
        Idle Cell Cnt:  246856

        Tx Packets Dropped Count:       0
        Tx Bad Packets Count:   14

        [Downstream/RX)]
        Good Cell Cnt:  59713
        Idle Cell Cnt:  4189559
        Bad Hec Cell Cnt:       0
        Overflow Dropped Cell Cnt:      0
        Rx Packets Dropped Count:       0
        Rx Bad Packets Count:   0


[SAR AAL5 Stats]
        Tx PDU's:       180942
        Rx PDU's:       277374
        Tx Total Bytes: 21944933
        Rx Total Bytes: 323962920
        Tx Total Error Counts:  0
        Rx Total Error Counts:  1982


[OAM Stats]
        Near End F5 Loop Back Count:    0
        Near End F4 Loop Back Count:    0
        Far End F5 Loop Back Count:     0
        Far End F4 Loop Back Count:     0
        SAR OAM Ping Response Drop Count=15
Title: Woohoo
Post by: jid on September 06, 2008, 02:13:10 PM
They have just rung and I am back on an adaptive profile!!!! Stats are below:-
Code: [Select]
[DSL Modem Stats]
        US Connection Rate:     448     DS Connection Rate:     5632
        DS Line Attenuation:    30      DS Margin:              12
        US Line Attenuation:    16      US Margin:              24
        US Payload :            10692480        DS Payload:             28057569
6
        US Superframe Cnt :     40860   DS Superframe Cnt:      40860
        US Transmit Power :     12      DS Transmit Power:      19
        LOS errors:             0       SEF errors:             0
        Errored Seconds:        0       Severely Err Secs:      0
        Frame mode:             3       Max Frame mode:         0
        Trained Path:           1       US Peak Cell Rate:      1056
        Trained Mode:           3       Selected Mode:          1
        ATUC Vendor Code:       4946544E        ATUC Revision:  2
        Hybrid Selected:        1       Trellis:                1
        Showtime Count:         3       DS Max Attainable Bit Rate: 5632 kbps
        BitSwap:                1       US Max Attainable Bit Rate:     n/a
        Annex:                  AnxA    psd_mask_qualifier: 0x0000
        ATUC ghsVid:  b5 00 49 46 54 4e 71 53
        T1413Vid: 00 00         T1413Rev: 00            VendorRev: 00
        ATUR ghsVid:  44 4c 69 6e 6b 00 00 00
        T1413Vid: 00 00 T1413Rev: 00    VendorRev: 00

        [Upstream (TX) Interleave path]
        CRC:    1       FEC:    0       NCD:    0
        LCD:    0       HEC:    0

        [Downstream (RX) Interleave path]
        CRC:    0       FEC:    4       NCD:    0
        LCD:    0       HEC:    0

        [Upstream (TX) Fast path]
        CRC:    0       FEC:    0       NCD:    1
        LCD:    0       HEC:    0

        [Downstream (RX) Fast path]
        CRC:    0       FEC:    0       NCD:    0
        LCD:    0       HEC:    0

As you can see, Upstream is 448kbps :)

Kitz, with their DLM, if I leave the router on, is it possible that DLM will change some settings around?

Edit: Just resynced as I changed WiFi settings and Target SNR has gone down to 9dB and Sync is up to 5728kbps. Is it good that the Target SNR is down?

Looks like DLM has moved me to this profile:-
Code: [Select]
8M_896_9db - 8160  - 896  -    Adaptive  - Interleaved 
Cheers

Jamie
Title: Re: No Connection
Post by: jid on September 06, 2008, 09:45:13 PM
Just came in to find the SNR in funny figures! I guess I will leave it plugged in all of the time now and not resync if necessary?

With this DLM, is it always running with Tiscali connections? How does it work?

Does it actually resync my line automatically if it feels I can sync higher, I don't really understand?

Cheers

Jamie
Title: Re: No Connection
Post by: dave.m on September 06, 2008, 10:41:22 PM
Quote
Thing is, I will be doing GCSEs next year and wanted an easier router than changing ISP, with all the work I will have, do you seriously think I have time to go around webpages changing email addresses and sending upto 300 people notifications?

In all honesty, you could have changed ISPs and sent your 300 notifications and got on with your studies in less time than this thread has been running.

You have had several replies stating the blindingly obvious but you still carry on posting hoping that some fairy godmother will appear and wave her magic wand at Tiscalli and make them sort out your problems.

You started off this thread over 3 months ago with the title No Connection. As you now have a connection even if it is not what you want, either put up with it or change ISP. Then, perhaps you can concentate on your GCSE studies and we can concentrate on helping people with genuine problems.

Title: Re: No Connection
Post by: soms on September 06, 2008, 11:14:03 PM
Quote
They have just rung and I am back on an adaptive profile!!!! Stats are below:-

Well that has always been the case.

Max DSL (BT or LLU) is rate adaptive by default and is very rarely set at a fixed rate manually by the ISP (unless to provide a certain fixed speed using DSL Max exchange equipment hardware).

Often a certain sync speed is maintained either by not rebooting/resycning the router and the line conditions at the time of sync noise margin vs. target noise margin. If you have consistent resyncs/lose of sync the target margin is raised and can sometimes remain so (which looks to be the case with your stats of 4096Kbps with 17dB margin).

If the ISP resets the profile, it will be trying afresh from the default target SNRM compared to the one decided over time by DLM and so a sync speed increase can be expected.

If you leave the router on, it will continue to adapt to changing line conditions and so if the SNR drops too low may resync. After a few resyncs this may lead to an increase in SNR margin and hence lower speeds.

If you only use the router when the SNR is at its best, it is likely to retain the 9dB margin and provide a higher sync speed. However, the DLM may think the router being disconnected is due to signal failure and may tamper with the settings as a result.

Overall its best left as it is, leave the router on, it is set to a target 9dB noise margin which will only change if you have major sync loses.

If I were you I would now be content. The line has had its profile reset and is a decent speed anyhow. If your satisfied with your ISP, then you can save sending out 300 change of e-mail address notifications and if not, then switch to an ISP with better customer service.

As for the GCSE's, I did them four years ago and still had plenty of time for other things.
Title: Re: No Connection
Post by: jid on September 07, 2008, 09:03:50 AM
Woke up now and had resynced to a 9 dB profile with a sync of 6304kbps!!!! Highest ever.

So I am finally a happy customer knowing that the DLM is doing its job, I am just hoping it will go up now! :)

Once again, as posted previously, thanks to Kitz, Ezzer, roseway, mr_chris and everyone else who posted :)

@soms, Tiscali put my profile to a Fixed 4meg profile with a higher SNR, DLM didn't do that?

I am now staying with Tiscali, keeping my father happy that he doesn't have to pay his line rental and pay for local and national calls!

You may close/lock this thread now.

Edit: Sync is now 6400kbps!!!!!!!! ;D

Kind Regards and Many Thanks to you all

Jamie
Title: Re: No Connection
Post by: kitz on September 07, 2008, 02:47:18 PM
I still believe there's an underlying fault on your line and that you will continue to see fluctuations in your speeds.. particularly in the evenings.

I personally would not accept a 4-6Mbps down and 228kbps up as being acceptable for a 31dB attenuation line.  It should sync quite happily on their  8Mbps downstream and 896kbps upstream profile.  Ive known much longer lines sync at the full 8Mbps with much less fluctuations than what you're seeing.

But since Tiscali refuse to look into the underlying problem properly, and you are content to stay with Tiscali, then to cut your looses, I think you will have to accept speeds much lower than you could get with a decent ISP who would be prepared to investigate the obvious.

I wish you all the best with Tiscali and your connection, as IMHO this thread has been yet another prime example of Tiscali's failure to resolve problems promptly and efficiently.
However, as you now appear to be happy with your connection, which is the main thing...  at your request I have closed this thread.