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Author Topic: DLM Banding on the line  (Read 3771 times)

Alex Atkin UK

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Re: DLM Banding on the line
« Reply #15 on: December 04, 2022, 01:47:19 PM »

Surely openreach should updated dlm system to take no noticed of every years Xmas Lights

Interference is interference, it doesn't matter what's creating it, if you can't remove it you have to work within the limitations that presents.

DLM exists to automatically find the right settings to keep your line in sync if at all possible.  Without it you'd have either no connection at all when the christmas lights are on, or a very unstable one that is resyncing constantly.

Before DLM we had much slower connections as they had to estimate what your line could take and have a huge safety margin.  When I first got DSL I could only get 500Kbit, then later they allowed 1Mbit.  I then upgraded to 2Mbit which they "accidentally" allowed to go through, even though they supposedly rejected the order due to my line being too long.  Yet once I moved to Be Broadband my line was capable of 5Mbit, because I had very little interference.

People who weren't so lucky had huge problems with the their connections resyncing all the time and ISPs had to manually band lines and/or apply aggressive interleaving, which is why DLM was developed as once everyone and their cat had broadband it was no longer practical to do this manually.  Plus people in general don't want to spend months reporting back to their ISP that their connection is still unstable as the line profile is tweaked.

In an ideal world seamless rate adaptation would handle all this, allowing the line speed to reduce and you to manually recover it by forcing a resync, but in the real world this unfortunately did not work reliably with all the DSL modems out there.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2022, 01:55:57 PM by Alex Atkin UK »
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j0hn

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Re: DLM Banding on the line
« Reply #16 on: December 04, 2022, 02:11:05 PM »

Surely openreach should updated dlm system to take no noticed of every years Xmas Lights

How do you suppose the DLM is to know if it's Xmas lights or not?

If it was Xmas lights that affected your line,  it caused a burst of ES and you already had G.INP enabled.

The other option would have been interleaving your line.
That would have had a bigger drop in sync than the 6Mb you lost, with 8ms latency added on top.

The DLM needs to do something to stabilise lines with high ES or the line can become unusable due to packet loss.

Leave it be and the DLM should remove the banding itself.
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adslmax

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Re: DLM Banding on the line
« Reply #17 on: December 04, 2022, 03:59:23 PM »

Finally at last the banding has been removed just before 2pm. Back to 80/20 now.  I was very surprised as I thought dlm will never removed it.
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XGS_Is_On

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Re: DLM Banding on the line
« Reply #18 on: December 04, 2022, 05:21:40 PM »

Finally at last the banding has been removed just before 2pm. Back to 80/20 now.  I was very surprised as I thought dlm will never removed it.

It was banded for three days. That's a pretty quick recovery.
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adslmax

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Re: DLM Banding on the line
« Reply #19 on: December 04, 2022, 05:44:27 PM »

Yes I was very surprised 😮

here is stats

Stats recorded 05 Dec 2022 15:15:42

DSLAM type / SW version:   BDCM:0xc190 (193.144) / v0xc190
Modem/router firmware:     AnnexA version - A2pvfbH043q.d26u
DSL mode:                  VDSL2 Profile 17a
Status:                    Showtime
Uptime:                    1 day 1 hour 13 min 47 sec
Resyncs:                   0 (since 05 Dec 2022 15:15:40)
         
            Downstream   Upstream
Line attenuation (dB):     12.0      0.0
Signal attenuation (dB):   Not available on VDSL2      
Connection speed (kbps):   79999      20000
SNR margin (dB):           7.6      9.7
Power (dBm):               12.6      -1.2
Interleave depth:          16      1
INP:                       48.00      0
G.INP:                     Enabled      Not enabled
Vectoring status:          5 (VECT_UNCONFIGURED)      

RSCorr/RS (%):             0.0000      0.0000
RSUnCorr/RS (%):           0.0000      0.0000
ES/hour:                   0      0

xdslctl info --vectoring
xdslctl: ADSL driver and PHY status
Status: Showtime
Last Retrain Reason:    0
Last initialization procedure status:   0
Max:    Upstream rate = 27308 Kbps, Downstream rate = 89975 Kbps
Bearer: 0, Upstream rate = 20000 Kbps, Downstream rate = 79999 Kbps
Bearer: 1, Upstream rate = 0 Kbps, Downstream rate = 0 Kbps
Vectoring state: 5
VCE MAC Address: 0:0:0:0:0:0
Total error samples Ethernet pkts sent: 0
Total error samples Ethernet pkts discarded: 0
Total error samples statuses sent: 0
Total error samples statuses discarded: 0
ZySH>
« Last Edit: December 05, 2022, 03:19:25 PM by adslmax »
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burakkucat

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Re: DLM Banding on the line
« Reply #20 on: December 04, 2022, 06:31:47 PM »

Perhaps we should file this event under the heading of "Much Ado About Nothing"?  ;)
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adslmax

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Re: DLM Banding on the line
« Reply #21 on: December 04, 2022, 06:34:16 PM »

You may closed this thread now. No further action is required now.
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Alex Atkin UK

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Re: DLM Banding on the line
« Reply #22 on: December 04, 2022, 07:19:34 PM »

 :no: :no: :no:
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Edinburgh_lad

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Re: DLM Banding on the line
« Reply #23 on: December 05, 2022, 12:25:06 AM »

They're a business, I don't see how like/dislike is particularly relevant.  I will go with whoever provides the best service and is not too expensive.

While I really want to move to CityFibre for symmetrical, I strongly suspect Openreach are a more robust network.  Also less prone to failure as their active equipment is back in a protected environment (an exchange) hopefully with a generator back-up, vs alt-nets that are using cabinets out in the elements, at risk of vandalism and car crashes and with at best a few hours battery backup.

I'd trust Openreach to fix a fault a lot quicker than anyone else, despite the problems I've had myself with them.
Line got disconnected from the cabinet due an engineer mistake and they left me all weekend without service.
Tags got stuck on the database when I tried to move back to Openreach service from Digital Region.

No business is flawless and if you're stuck on grotty old copper service subject to neighbours turning on their christmas lights knocking out your broadband, there's not a lot you can do.  That is not a problem Openreach can fix, banding is the only solution to keep a service working when there is a problem which may be well outside of their control, its them doing their job by prioritising keeping you online.

You seem to defending a company that is rolling in money but failing big time to maintain its network on a regular basis, at least in this part of the country. I've rocked the boat here, though, and my local engineers have now upped their game: they now seem to care more.

From the Chief Engineers Office: a REIN issue can occur but is rare. Also, I see no campaigns by Openreach (or supported by Openreach) about the potential negative effect of Christmas lights on the network and its quality. So, either this is a myth about Christmas lights or Openreach doesn't give a toss about the issue. Otherwise, how is the customer to know about the effect their Christmas lights may have on the network?

I'd love Openreach to be split into little companies that start making an effort. If they didn't, they'd fail. However, with such a big company and having the monopoly on the telecoms comes complacency. It's a textbook example of what you shouldn't allow to happen.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2022, 12:28:37 AM by Edinburgh_lad »
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Alex Atkin UK

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Re: DLM Banding on the line
« Reply #24 on: December 05, 2022, 01:41:08 AM »

You seem to defending a company that is rolling in money but failing big time to maintain its network on a regular basis, at least in this part of the country. I've rocked the boat here, though, and my local engineers have now upped their game: they now seem to care more.

From the Chief Engineers Office: a REIN issue can occur but is rare. Also, I see no campaigns by Openreach (or supported by Openreach) about the potential negative effect of Christmas lights on the network and its quality. So, either this is a myth about Christmas lights or Openreach doesn't give a toss about the issue. Otherwise, how is the customer to know about the effect their Christmas lights may have on the network?

I'd love Openreach to be split into little companies that start making an effort. If they didn't, they'd fail. However, with such a big company and having the monopoly on the telecoms comes complacency. It's a textbook example of what you shouldn't allow to happen.

Personally, I do not believe BT should have been privatised in the first place.  Although considering this government, I'm not sure I'd want one big network fully under their control able to snoop on everyone either, so its probably for the best after all.

I have no particular love for Openreach, I just get fed up when people start blaming them for things out of their control or suggesting they remove DLM when that would make the problems worse.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2022, 04:39:07 AM by Alex Atkin UK »
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parkdale

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Re: DLM Banding on the line
« Reply #25 on: December 05, 2022, 09:59:57 AM »

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parkdale

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Re: DLM Banding on the line
« Reply #26 on: December 05, 2022, 10:36:03 AM »

BT should have invested in fibre optic networks in the 1980/90's when the price/shortage of copper was a major cost (Aluminium was used instead!!!!) . Conservative gov of the time decided that fibre optic networks should be setup and run by new network companys... not BT. Hence we had Nynex etc putting in Co-ax cable in Citys and large housing estates first. BT were not allowed to compete, even though they knew going fully fibre optic, was going to be the future of networks.
Cable company's don't want any rural networks as there's no money in it. 

So much for the Conservative vision of competition, all those cable company's are now largely owned by one... Virgin Networks. So they can charge what they want now, oh, and they still don't want rural networks unless the Gov chip in!!

Suddenly the Conservative Gov realised we are now 35yrs behind the most tech loving country's e.g. Japan, South Korea. Sweden, Finland, Germany etc. Now it's Openreach/BT being told they have been holding back investment... really >:D
« Last Edit: December 05, 2022, 10:38:12 AM by parkdale »
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Edinburgh_lad

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Re: DLM Banding on the line
« Reply #27 on: December 05, 2022, 10:41:21 AM »

Yet, people keep on voting for the Conservatives. Even though they're worse off in every aspect of their lives effectively, starting from the effects of Brexit, through NHS, energy, telecoms etc. How extraordinary, isn't it?
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Edinburgh_lad

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Re: DLM Banding on the line
« Reply #28 on: December 05, 2022, 10:48:01 AM »

https://www.thinkbroadband.com/videos/broadband-interference so not Openreach problem.

I never said it was their responsibility. However, as a respectful company, they should have run a campaign advising people on the potential effects of Christmas lights. Unless, of course, it's a myth all that stuff about the effects of Christmas lights.

Let's be honest: did @adslmax provide any proof it was Christmas lights or their neighbour? No, everyone just jumped into conclusion it was because it's Christmas time and it's in our nature to find a reasonable explanation for something that we have no reasonable explanation for. It's like with this Broadcom vs. Lantiq debate, where there are so many other factors that could influence the quality of the connection at any given time.

Worse is that my ISP started talking about the same crap, even though I've proven to them time and again (and so did Openreach) that the issue affecting my line is on Openreach's network and regardless of whether I use Zyxel or Draytek or Fritzbox, I'm going to have the same problems.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2022, 10:54:43 AM by Edinburgh_lad »
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Black Sheep

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Re: DLM Banding on the line
« Reply #29 on: December 05, 2022, 10:58:58 AM »

I never said it was their responsibility. However, as a respectful company, they should have run a campaign advising people on the potential effects of Christmas lights. Unless, of course, it's a myth all that stuff about the effects of Christmas lights.



Mate - what planet do you live on ??

Do businesses splash out millions of pounds on awareness campaigns for something that is not attributable to them, on this planet of yours ?? I can just imagine the share-holders reaction to that.

Before you start to lay your own thoughts down, how about you read up on REIN, educate yourself .... then you're not making embarrassing comments like the one above.
Couple of links below from our glorious leader and Ofcom.

https://kitz.co.uk/adsl/rein.htm

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-34964847
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