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[aesmith]

Today I spotted unauthorised debits to Amazon Prime.  First thought was that one of us had signed up for a trial and forgot to cancel, but that wasn't the case. Looking again these were Debit Card payments, whereas neither of us have used anything but a credit card with Amazon. In fact, since this wasn't our main current account the actual debit card itself has sat in a drawer unused, and never been used for any transaction before.

The fraud claim has been approved and money refunded, but I am puzzled as to how it came about in the first place.  The card had never been used so no merchant would have the details to leak.  Hacking Internet banking wouldn't find the car details either. And it seems a low value fraud in any case, even if it had run on unnoticed it's not a huge gain for the scammer.

Any thoughts?

Tony S

[burakkucat]

That seems odd. 

[broadstairs]

Strange indeed, is the card in date? Just wondering if a new card has been intercepted in the post perhaps?

Stuart

[aesmith]

The card was valid from Dec 2020 to Jan 2024, cancelled now of course.  Doesn't a replacement card have a different number in any case? 

I've have gone back a bit further in history and can 100% confirm no debit card transactions at all since January 2020 until the fraudulent ones.  I am 99% sure there were none before that either as we neither of us normally use debit cards, and since it's not our main bank account that's even less likely.  Hence the card being filed in the drawer, not kept in her handbag.

I would love to blame Amazon because I had issue with them in the past.  But I can't how they'd have the card details either.  I can't see where they could have come from except from the issuing bank.

[Alex Atkin UK]

Did you check the account details were still correct?  Only thing I could think of is if they used social engineering to somehow convince the bank they are you and get a replacement card sent to a different address.

If the card number changes may depend on the bank.

[meritez]

The card number doesn't necessarily change.

Nationwide sent me a new credit card recently, only the start date and expiry date changed.

I was a bit taken aback by that.
Is your debit card on PayPal, revolut, curve etc?

Have Amazon advised the email address they have on record for you or where your goods were delivered?

[g3uiss]

On a card renewal only the expiry date and CVC change. It’s extremely rare to change card number unless the card / account has been compromised.

[broadstairs]

My wife had a new debit card a few weeks ago as her old one was expiring and Nationwide changed the last 4 digits of the card number as well as the CVV, however my Barclaycard number has not changed for years only the CVV, so it does depend on the Bank.

Stuart

[tiffy]

A few years ago I noticed a DD on my current account debit card to Netflix, have never subscribed.
Contacted bank who immediately refunded, cancelled card and issued new card, thought that was it.
New card had different 16 digit number as would be expected.

Next month, same again, same DD to Netflix.
Again contacted bank who immediately refunded, cancelled card and issued new (different number)

Believe it or not, next month, same again!
Had enough by now, had a long chat with bank head office.
They admitted they had not or could not contact Netflix and advised me to do so myself while issuing yet another replacement card.
Netflix were very understanding, gave my current debit card number and name and asked if this was as per their records which of course was not, accepted as fraud, and cancelled the subscription, matter finally resolved.

Bank also admitted that card number changes are automatically updated to any company who request this on a DD, the reason why 2 further fraudulent debits were honoured on 2 different cards after the original fraud was reported.

[Alex Atkin UK]

I assume you mean Debit Card rather than DD which usually means Direct Debit?

Direct Debit details don't change when you're issued a new card, that requires changing your bank account number.  Direct Debits are also easily cancelled at the bank.

[aesmith]

Although I was as sure as sure, nevertheless I've consolidated every transaction on that bank account since it was opened into one spreadsheet.  There have been no debit card transactions at all.  Since it's not our normal bank account, I simply can't imagine a scenario where the card details would have been given to anyone. If for example someone charges a surcharge for credit cards then we would have used the debit card from our normal bank account. Banks account details are all correct, the fraud lady went through cross checking all these when filling in the claim.

The bank statement shows transaction description as "Amazon Prime*zzzzzzzzzz CD xxxx" where xxxx is the last four digits of the card used (matching the card in my hand) and I presume the zzzzzzzzzz number might be some Amazon reference. 

I'm not sure I can face battling with Amazon, I can just foresee them refusing to talk to me about someone else's Amazon account. From what I understand Prime is intangible stuff like streaming TV, so quite likely a fake account anyway.  Our own Amazon accounts are correct, and neither has a Prime subscription active.

[broadstairs]

There are recurring debits on both credit and debit cards which are similar to direct debits.

Stuart

[aesmith]

I think there's a bit of ambiguity between how you'd want the bank to handle things depending on the exact circumstances.  For example if the card was cancelled because it was lost, it would make sense for any existing an authorised repeating payments to continue using the new card details. However if a recurring payment is deliberately cancelled as well as the card being changed, you would hope the scammer wouldn't be provided with the new card details so he can reinstate it.

[Alex Atkin UK]

There are recurring debits on both credit and debit cards which are similar to direct debits.

Stuart

They are distinctly different however.

A Direct Debit has a specific guarantee and is an agreement to make regular payments to someone of an amount that may vary:

• The Guarantee is offered by all banks and building societies that accept instructions to pay Direct Debits.
• If there are any changes to the amount, date or frequency of your Direct Debit the organisation will notify you (normally 10 working days) in advance of your account being debited or as otherwise agreed. If you request the organisation to collect a payment, confirmation of the amount and date will be given to you at the time of the request.
• If an error is made in the payment of your Direct Debit, by the organisation or your bank or building society, you are entitled to a full and immediate refund of the amount paid from your bank or building society.  If you receive a refund you are not entitled to, you must pay it back when the organisation asks you to.
• You can cancel a Direct Debit at any time by simply contacting your bank or building society. Written confirmation may be required. Please also notify the organisation.

A Debit/Credit card has no such agreement, but may be used to make regular payments.  A credit card generally has protection from fraud, but a debit card payment it depends on your bank.

[aesmith]

The bank called it a "Continuous Payment Authority", they said they were cancelling any of these as well as killing the card off.