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[sevenlayermuddle]

Awful things happening in Paris this evening, watch TV if not already....

[Black Sheep]

pound to a pinch of sh1te this will be done under the name of some sky-fairy !!! Religion = Terrorism. Backward thinking ideas introduced a few millennia ago to keep the masses in check.
If somebody can provide evidence, ANY evidence the man in the clouds exists ...... I will detract my statement and publicly apologise.

Until then, I will hold all religion as the main instigator behind most of the worlds ills !! Over 100 innocent people lost thir lives tonight in the name of some feckin' sky-fairy !! makes my blood boil !!

[AArdvark]

BS totally agree.
Really worried that this will 'encourage' some looney group to do something as retaliation in France.
The real annoying thing is that most things done in the name if a religion are done by extreme factions.
These extreme factions are not representative of any religion but are taken as representative.
It demonstrates that the religious aims are a cover as why would any 'True Believer' of whatever religion seek to make a religion synonymous with such mayhem.
It is going to cause many countries to push forward extreme responses including the UK.
This is escalation time.
All this with the widespread immigrant influx is a bad mix!!
A better response is needed to the IS threat than IPB bills and sound bites in front of No. 10, but what I don't know.
I do not understand what killing 100+ people is supposed to achieve.
Noone is going to give in or change the country as a result.
It is someone who feels empowered by murder and thinks they cannot be caught.
They will be and probably not alive.
I do feel that there should be a bigger/louder response from the 'True Muslims' at this point, they can seem to be supporting this by default by keeping their mouths shut/heads down.
(Unfair but it can be seen that way by outsiders.)
Totally angered by this waste of life for nothing.



 

Sent from my LG G3 via Tapatalk (Typos & bad formatting are free)

[Ronski]

I also agree with BS, I've never been religious and I told the last lot of Johavah's that knocked at my door that God served the human race well for many years to explain how we were created etc, but now we have scientists to explain most things.

If someone wants to be religious then that's up to them, but they shouldn't go forcing their views on others, and I'm under no doubt that these terrorists use religion to hide behind and to force others to carry out their terrorist acts.

[Black Sheep]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gPOfurmrjxo

[roseway]

I'm not religious either, but I don't think it's really appropriate to put the blame for terrorist attacks on religion in general. The vast majority of religious believers are peaceable people, even if we don't share their beliefs and practices. Terrorists use their distorted view of their particular religion to persuade others to join their violent cause, so the blame lies with the terrorists and their gullible followers.

[4candles]

As Holly Near so eloquently puts it

I ain't afraid of your Yahweh
 I ain't afraid of your Allah
 I ain't afraid of your Jesus
 I'm afraid of what you do in the name of your God
 
 I ain't afraid of your churches
 I ain't afraid of your temples
 I ain't afraid of your praying
 I'm afraid of what you do in the name of your God

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_UO7N9ARB4M[/youtube]

[Black Sheep]

I'm not religious either, but I don't think it's really appropriate to put the blame for terrorist attacks on religion in general. The vast majority of religious believers are peaceable people, even if we don't share their beliefs and practices. Terrorists use their distorted view of their particular religion to persuade others to join their violent cause, so the blame lies with the terrorists and their gullible followers.

I appreciate your take on it, and your tact ..... but I still hold strong that if religion was eradicated (Not gonna happen unfortunately), that this world would be a lot better place to live.

There may be billions of peaceful followers, it's as you say, that one lunatic that takes it to the next level. As long as we have followers of teachings that are over 2,000 years old and can never be proven, we will have war. It creates division, however peaceful we want to believe the tosh that's spouted from followers of all religions.

It does seem however, just one particular faith that continually makes the headlines. You never read of a Buddhist follower wearing a suicide vest. Backward thinking, vile scum.

[BritBrat]

Nice to see the mosque leaders condemning this vial action.

Pigs might fly.

[sevenlayermuddle]

Let's not get too bogged down in the religious aspects of all this, else I'll regret starting the thread.   I was just a bit shocked last night, we'd been watching a DVD then after it finished I switched back to the news and, utter shock.

Another aspect maybe worth debating is whether or not such events add merit to the government's attempts at phone and Internet surveillance.   

The trouble is of course, ordinary citizens end up being surveilled too.   But I picked up a mention on BBC this morning, somebody described one of the murderers... 'He was an ordinary-looking guy in a T shirt'.  So is surveillance of ordinary citizens such a bad thing?

[BritBrat]

French security services stopped someone with guns and a ticket to Paris some time before.

If that's not intelligence what is?

Did it help ! not at all.


EDIT: Sorry it was Germany:

51-year-old man arrested last week

[sevenlayermuddle]

I suppose the counter argument would be, the number of incidents that have been averted thanks to surveillance and other intelligence?

[AArdvark]

I'm not religious either, but I don't think it's really appropriate to put the blame for terrorist attacks on religion in general. The vast majority of religious believers are peaceable people, even if we don't share their beliefs and practices. Terrorists use their distorted view of their particular religion to persuade others to join their violent cause, so the blame lies with the terrorists and their gullible followers.

For clarity,
I did not call ALL believers Terrorists BUT religion in all forms has been used as an excuse for everything from War downwards throughout history.
It is a so useful way to 'rabble rouse' a group of 'peaceable people' into an avenging mob.
It is the usual process of identify the differences (any will do) and demonise the non-believers.
You then direct (mis-direct) the angry people to do your 'real' objectives in the name of supporting/protecting your true faith.
This has been done by all the major religions throughout history.
This history feeds into the rhetoric, to fuel later acts and so on and so on.
Today we still have it very visible in everyday life in places like India/Pakistan where people are killed for daring to criticise things done in the name of various religions.
The on-going Kashmir dispute has been turned into a religious dispute because of the majority split of religions in India/Pakistan (Hindu/Muslim)
Various Terrorist groups are in existence in areas policed by Pakistan (supposedly) these groups are fighting a religious war (supposedly).
The Israel - Palestine dispute is also a Religious dispute as both sides in desperation to push for greater support have more and more focused on the two main religions as being attacked and under threat.
You will also note that the settlers that are mostly pushing the frontiers of the Israeli state are the Religious fanatics within Judaism, as more of these people are involved in the fighting and dying, the conflict pushes more and more into the religious side.
It is even still an undercurrent in Northern Ireland after such a long campaign of killing on all sides and a peace agreement.

Religion is and always will be used/abused to further other aims as it is so powerful a tool to control and direct large groups of people.
It acts on the emotions more than the head and even moderate people can be encouraged to do terrible acts in the name of God. (Whichever God that may be)
I do not care if people wish to follow a religion, it is your choice and I once did, but I hold no illusions of what those people may do in its name if the right buttons are pushed. 

[AArdvark]

Let's not get too bogged down in the religious aspects of all this, else I'll regret starting the thread.   I was just a bit shocked last night, we'd been watching a DVD then after it finished I switched back to the news and, utter shock.

Another aspect maybe worth debating is whether or not such events add merit to the government's attempts at phone and Internet surveillance.   

The trouble is of course, ordinary citizens end up being surveilled too.   But I picked up a mention on BBC this morning, somebody described one of the murderers... 'He was an ordinary-looking guy in a T shirt'.  So is surveillance of ordinary citizens such a bad thing?

I knew this would be raised. 

This is what I meant by escalation (or more correctly is included in it).
Many countries will use these events to justify such escalations.
This is how it usually works but 'unintended consequences' will be there running in the background.!!

The response in the Papers such as the 'Sun' would be do whatever it takes to catch the Terrorists.
I am thinking beyond the end of this conflict.
Do you think that the end always justifies the means ?
Is that not the same mentality as the Terrorists you are chasing ?
Once proven as a successful strategy do you think it will NOT be used again ?

I want them caught and stopped but NOT at any costs.

We should always be 'Better' than the people we oppose or we are simply fighting them in the same gutter.

It is very difficult to resist the temptation to fight 'Evil' with 'Evil' but we are the ones who will come out worse.
The Terrorists will be dead but we will end up living in a worse world that has learnt that 'Evil' works and is acceptable if it is on your side.
(Sound somewhat familiar!!!)

[Bowdon]

I've just found this thread, so forgive me if I reply to all of it as I've just read it.

I don't believe that religion is to blame for the anti-social behaviour like this. If we start along those lines then we'll be in a debate between athiests in China vs religious extremists in Saudi Arabia. Whoever ends up being right, its not moral victory.

I think human nature dictates that people naturally like to be in groups, and some people like to lead it. Sadly in todays era people feel more insecure in themselves. Who would have thought that in the era of mass communication that there would be many more socially isolated people.

The events in Paris will re-shape many debates as some opinions will be weaker now. In relation to our area, I do think that this is going to weaken the side that is against these government spying laws coming in. A freak incident will be used to justify spying on us all. We already have Sky suggesting that if the law comes in to force then they will have to increase prices in order to pay for the extra measures.

It's kinda ironic that the police can spot someone making a politically incorrect joke on twitter yet can't seem to zom in on the real bad people.