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Author Topic: Bridge Tap  (Read 6787 times)

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Bridge Tap
« on: April 04, 2014, 07:52:50 PM »

Just wondering how easy is is to detect a bridge tap, as this can affect adsl more so than the phone? Reducing impedance, reducing signal strength.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2014, 07:55:20 PM by Loading »
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Black Sheep

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Re: Bridge Tap
« Reply #1 on: April 04, 2014, 08:11:19 PM »

Detecting it by what manner ?? Graphing scripts, or an actual hand-held meter ??  :)
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burakkucat

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Re: Bridge Tap
« Reply #2 on: April 04, 2014, 08:35:47 PM »

Just wondering how easy is is to detect a bridge tap

Just look at the value of Hlog versus frequency.  ;)
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Re: Bridge Tap
« Reply #3 on: April 05, 2014, 03:30:43 PM »

How would that be done B*cat? Also how do you test continuity on the line, what value should it show? When I test i get -508?
« Last Edit: April 05, 2014, 04:01:56 PM by Loading »
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burakkucat

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Re: Bridge Tap
« Reply #4 on: April 05, 2014, 10:06:28 PM »

If you are using a modem which provides the appropriate data, harvest the data and plot it as a graph.

Using a Huawei HG622 I obtain the following raw data --

Code: [Select]
[Duo2 ~]$ telnet ap
Trying 192.168.1.254...
Connected to ap.
Escape character is '^]'.
-------------------------------
-----Welcome to ATP Cli------
-------------------------------

Login: admin
Password:
ATP>sh


BusyBox vv1.9.1 (2011-09-27 11:55:09 CST) built-in shell (ash)
Enter 'help' for a list of built-in commands.

# xdslcmd info --Hlog
xdslcmd: ADSL driver and PHY status
Status: Showtime
Retrain Reason: 8000
Max: Upstream rate = 1064 Kbps, Downstream rate = 5884 Kbps
Channel: INTR, Upstream rate = 1020 Kbps, Downstream rate = 5572 Kbps

Tone number      Hlog
   0 -96.2500
   1 -96.2500
   2 -96.2500
   3 -96.2500
   4 -96.2500
   5 -96.2500
   6 -96.2500
   7 -24.6875
   8 -23.7500
   9 -23.5625
   10 -24.1875
   11 -24.5625
   12 -25.0625
   13 -25.2500
   14 -25.5625
   15 -26.1875
   16 -26.7500
   17 -27.2500
   18 -27.7500
   19 -28.3750
   20 -29.0000
   21 -29.5000
   22 -30.0000
   23 -30.8750
   24 -32.0000
   25 -33.0625
   26 -34.1875
   27 -35.0625
   28 -36.0000
   29 -37.1875
   30 -38.6875
   31 -40.5000
   32 -53.9375
   33 -52.3750
   34 -50.8125
   35 -49.3125
   36 -47.8125
   37 -46.3750
   38 -45.0000
   39 -43.6875
   40 -42.4375
   41 -41.3750
   42 -40.4375
   43 -39.7500
   44 -39.2500
   45 -39.0625
   46 -39.0625
   47 -39.2500
   48 -39.5625
   49 -39.8125
   50 -40.1875
   51 -40.5625
   52 -40.8750
   53 -41.1875
   54 -41.5000
   55 -41.8125
   56 -42.1250
   57 -42.4375
   58 -42.6875
   59 -42.9375
   60 -43.1875
   61 -43.4375
   62 -43.6875
   63 -43.9375
   64 -44.1250
   65 -44.3750
   66 -44.5625
   67 -44.7500
   68 -45.0000
   69 -45.1875
   70 -45.4375
   71 -45.6250
   72 -45.8125
   73 -46.0000
   74 -46.2500
   75 -46.4375
   76 -46.6250
   77 -46.8125
   78 -47.0000
   79 -47.1875
   80 -47.3750
   81 -47.6250
   82 -47.8125
   83 -48.0000
   84 -48.1875
   85 -48.4375
   86 -48.6250
   87 -48.8125
   88 -49.0000
   89 -49.2500
   90 -49.4375
   91 -49.6250
   92 -49.8125
   93 -50.0625
   94 -50.2500
   95 -50.4375
   96 -50.6875
   97 -50.8750
   98 -51.0625
   99 -51.2500
   100 -51.5000
   101 -51.7500
   102 -51.9375
   103 -52.1875
   104 -52.3750
   105 -52.6250
   106 -52.8125
   107 -53.0000
   108 -53.2500
   109 -53.4375
   110 -53.6875
   111 -53.8750
   112 -54.0625
   113 -54.3125
   114 -54.5625
   115 -54.7500
   116 -55.0000
   117 -55.2500
   118 -55.4375
   119 -55.6875
   120 -55.8750
   121 -56.1250
   122 -56.3125
   123 -56.5625
   124 -56.7500
   125 -57.0000
   126 -57.1875
   127 -57.4375
   128 -57.6875
   129 -57.8750
   130 -58.1250
   131 -58.3125
   132 -58.5000
   133 -58.7500
   134 -59.0000
   135 -59.1875
   136 -59.4375
   137 -59.6250
   138 -59.8125
   139 -60.0000
   140 -60.2500
   141 -60.4375
   142 -60.6875
   143 -60.8750
   144 -61.0625
   145 -61.3125
   146 -61.5625
   147 -61.7500
   148 -62.0000
   149 -62.1875
   150 -62.3750
   151 -62.5625
   152 -62.8125
   153 -63.0625
   154 -63.1250
   155 -63.3750
   156 -63.6250
   157 -63.8750
   158 -64.0625
   159 -64.2500
   160 -64.4375
   161 -64.6875
   162 -64.9375
   163 -65.1250
   164 -65.3125
   165 -65.5000
   166 -65.6875
   167 -65.8750
   168 -66.0625
   169 -66.2500
   170 -66.5000
   171 -66.7500
   172 -66.9375
   173 -67.1875
   174 -67.2500
   175 -67.5625
   176 -67.6875
   177 -67.8750
   178 -68.1250
   179 -68.3125
   180 -68.5625
   181 -68.7500
   182 -68.9375
   183 -68.9375
   184 -69.3125
   185 -69.5625
   186 -69.7500
   187 -70.0000
   188 -70.1250
   189 -70.3750
   190 -70.5625
   191 -70.7500
   192 -71.0000
   193 -71.1875
   194 -71.3125
   195 -71.6875
   196 -71.7500
   197 -72.0000
   198 -72.2500
   199 -72.3750
   200 -72.6250
   201 -72.8750
   202 -72.9375
   203 -73.3750
   204 -73.4375
   205 -73.5625
   206 -73.8750
   207 -74.0000
   208 -74.1875
   209 -74.4375
   210 -74.5000
   211 -74.8750
   212 -75.0000
   213 -75.1250
   214 -75.3750
   215 -75.5625
   216 -75.8125
   217 -75.9375
   218 -76.1875
   219 -76.3750
   220 -76.6250
   221 -76.7500
   222 -77.0625
   223 -77.0625
   224 -77.3125
   225 -77.4375
   226 -77.7500
   227 -77.8125
   228 -78.0625
   229 -78.1875
   230 -78.4375
   231 -78.6250
   232 -78.8125
   233 -78.9375
   234 -79.2500
   235 -79.1875
   236 -79.3750
   237 -79.6875
   238 -79.6875
   239 -79.9375
   240 -80.1875
   241 -80.2500
   242 -80.4375
   243 -80.9375
   244 -80.7500
   245 -81.1250
   246 -81.3125
   247 -81.3125
   248 -81.6250
   249 -81.9375
   250 -82.3750
   251 -82.6875
   252 -83.2500
   253 -83.4375
   254 -83.8750
   255 -84.0000
#

The graph, plotted from the above, is attached below. The notch, centred at tone 32 is not the result of a bridging tap but is just the transition between US and DS bands.

If you own an appropriate HHT, connect it to the line and instruct it to display the Hlog graph or perform a TDR measurement on the pair.

Quote
Also how do you test continuity on the line, what value should it show? When I test i get -508?

Sorry, I do not understand what it is that you are asking.  :no:  Would you please rephrase the question?
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Re: Bridge Tap
« Reply #5 on: April 06, 2014, 09:12:43 AM »

Code: [Select]
adsl info --Hlog
adsl: ADSL driver and PHY status
Status: Showtime
Retrain Reason: 0
Last initialization procedure status:   0
Max:    Upstream rate = 760 Kbps, Downstream rate = 2048 Kbps
Channel:        INTR, Upstream rate = 448 Kbps, Downstream rate = 1856 Kbps

Tone number      Hlog
   0            -136.1250
   1            -123.1250
   2            -122.0000
   3            -122.0000
   4            -120.7500
   5            -116.1250
   6            -117.4375
   7            -115.8750
   8            -126.1250
   9            -133.0625
   10           -122.0000
   11           -117.4375
   12           -117.5000
   13           -118.0000
   14           -120.1250
   15           -126.1250
   16           -126.1250
   17           -123.1250
   18           -121.0000
   19           -119.1250
   20           -114.3750
   21           -123.5625
   22           -118.9375
   23           -115.2500
   24           -108.6875
   25           -110.9375
   26           -104.8125
   27           -103.5000
   28           -96.9375
   29           -87.2500
   30           -80.3750
   31           -74.5000
   32           -69.5000
   33           -65.3750
   34           -62.0625
   35           -59.5625
   36           -57.8125
   37           -56.7500
   38           -56.0625
   39           -55.7500
   40           -55.6875
   41           -55.7500
   42           -55.9375
   43           -56.2500
   44           -56.5625
   45           -56.8750
   46           -57.1875
   47           -57.5625
   48           -57.9375
   49           -58.3750
   50           -58.7500
   51           -59.1250
   52           -59.5000
   53           -59.9375
   54           -60.3125
   55           -60.6875
   56           -61.1250
   57           -61.5625
   58           -61.9375
   59           -62.3125
   60           -62.7500
   61           -63.1250
   62           -63.4375
   63           -63.8750
   64           -64.2500
   65           -64.6250
   66           -65.0625
   67           -65.3750
   68           -65.8125
   69           -66.1875
   70           -66.5625
   71           -67.0625
   72           -67.4375
   73           -67.8750
   74           -68.3125
   75           -68.7500
   76           -69.1875
   77           -69.5625
   78           -70.0000
   79           -70.3750
   80           -70.8750
   81           -71.3125
   82           -71.6875
   83           -72.0625
   84           -72.5000
   85           -72.9375
   86           -73.3750
   87           -73.8125
   88           -74.2500
   89           -74.6875
   90           -75.0625
   91           -75.5000
   92           -75.9375
   93           -76.3125
   94           -76.6875
   95           -77.0625
   96           -77.3750
   97           -77.8125
   98           -78.1875
   99           -78.5000
   100          -78.9375
   101          -79.3125
   102          -79.6250
   103          -80.0000
   104          -80.3750
   105          -80.6250
   106          -81.0625
   107          -81.3750
   108          -81.7500
   109          -82.1875
   110          -82.4375
   111          -82.8125
   112          -83.3125
   113          -83.6875
   114          -84.0625
   115          -84.3750
   116          -84.6875
   117          -84.8125
   118          -85.3125
   119          -86.0000
   120          -86.2500
   121          -86.4375
   122          -87.0625
   123          -87.5000
   124          -87.5625
   125          -88.3750
   126          -88.4375
   127          -88.8750
   128          -89.5000
   129          -89.6875
   130          -90.2500
   131          -90.5625
   132          -90.8125
   133          -91.4375
   134          -91.7500
   135          -91.8125
   136          -92.9375
   137          -92.6250
   138          -93.6250
   139          -93.8125
   140          -94.1875
   141          -94.9375
   142          -94.5000
   143          -95.2500
   144          -84.3125
   145          -96.3125
   146          -96.1875
   147          -96.1250
   148          -96.6875
   149          -97.5625
   150          -98.0625
   151          -98.5000
   152          -99.4375
   153          -97.9375
   154          -99.8125
   155          -99.8125
   156          -100.0000
   157          -101.7500
   158          -101.6250
   159          -101.5625
   160          -98.8750
   161          -101.2500
   162          -102.1875
   163          -102.3125
   164          -102.3750
   165          -103.4375
   166          -103.2500
   167          -103.4375
   168          -102.9375
   169          -103.8750
   170          -105.8125
   171          -105.6250
   172          -105.5000
   173          -104.0000
   174          -104.3750
   175          -105.9375
   176          -105.8125
   177          -105.8750
   178          -105.8125
   179          -107.0625
   180          -106.6875
   181          -109.6875
   182          -107.1875
   183          -107.6250
   184          -111.0000
   185          -108.0625
   186          -111.0000
   187          -112.1250
   188          -112.2500
   189          -111.4375
   190          -108.4375
   191          -111.2500
   192          -114.0625
   193          -112.8750
   194          -109.8750
   195          -114.3750
   196          -112.1250
   197          -110.4375
   198          -114.0625
   199          -110.9375
   200          -113.8125
   201          -114.9375
   202          -116.5625
   203          -113.6250
   204          -111.0625
   205          -110.4375
   206          -112.2500
   207          -115.9375
   208          -123.1250
   209          -110.6250
   210          -118.5000
   211          -109.5625
   212          -115.2500
   213          -116.1875
   214          -118.5000
   215          -113.5625
   216          -116.5625
   217          -113.6250
   218          -114.4375
   219          -111.4375
   220          -108.0000
   221          -113.1250
   222          -114.0625
   223          -123.1250
   224          -116.1250
   225          -120.7500
   226          -116.1250
   227          -119.1250
   228          -122.0000
   229          -117.0000
   230          -115.5000
   231          -127.0625
   232          -115.2500
   233          -113.5625
   234          -120.5625
   235          -112.9375
   236          -122.0000
   237          -113.5625
   238          -112.8750
   239          -113.8125
   240          -108.9375
   241          -120.7500
   242          -118.5000
   243          -114.3750
   244          -112.8750
   245          -115.2500
   246          -114.9375
   247          -133.0625
   248          -117.4375
   249          -117.0625
   250          -114.7500
   251          -111.5000
   252          -119.1250
   253          -110.9375
   254          -119.1250
   255          -120.1250
 >

Shouldn't the upstream be smoother, less spikes? On the last one why does it go up
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les-70

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Re: Bridge Tap
« Reply #6 on: April 06, 2014, 10:35:27 AM »

  I am sure B*cat will confirm things but that Hlog looks fine to me.  The end wiggles are just where your signal to noise gets very small or negative.
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Re: Bridge Tap
« Reply #7 on: April 06, 2014, 11:01:59 AM »

What about the upstream, as it has spikes and sudden steepness, wouldnt that mean the upstream attenuation is changing?
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burakkucat

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Re: Bridge Tap
« Reply #8 on: April 06, 2014, 03:25:14 PM »

As les-70 has mentioned, at a quick glance, that Hlog curve does look more or less normal.

However when I plot that data at an identical scaling to my own, "oddities" are noticeable. See the first graph, hlog-20140406-1501.png, below. Note how that a large proportion of the curve is off the Y-axis, below -100 dB. Re-plotting the curve, giving the Y-axis further 50% in its scale, results in the second graph, hlog-20140406-1502.png, below. We now see that, in general, the overall shape of the curve is reasonable but the attenuation, across the entire range is higher. I wonder if loading's circuit makes significant use of aluminium cabling?

Two anomalous regions are the frequencies used by the US band and the spike centred at tone 144 (~623 kHz). The former can be rationalised by power cut-back, etc, as we see that loading's US synchronisation speed is capped to 448 kbps. As for the spike at tone 144, I do not know.
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Re: Bridge Tap
« Reply #9 on: April 06, 2014, 03:43:48 PM »

What software do you use to plot the data, and it could be that when the engineer did work on the line with the tie pair, would he have used aluminium?
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Black Sheep

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Re: Bridge Tap
« Reply #10 on: April 06, 2014, 03:58:22 PM »

No it couldn't. All tie-pairs are run in Cu (Copper), and the 'Jumper wire' used to cross-connect the PSTN/VDSL mapping is also Cu.  :)
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Re: Bridge Tap
« Reply #11 on: April 06, 2014, 04:06:32 PM »

Well there goes that theory then  ;D neighbours have crackly lines, but ours isn't but still has fault symptoms
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burakkucat

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Re: Bridge Tap
« Reply #12 on: April 06, 2014, 04:08:24 PM »

What software do you use to plot the data,

GNUplot

And adding an additional comment to Black Sheep's reply, if what we are seeing is due to the usage of aluminium cabling then it would have to be a significant proportion of the circuit so using such cables (i.e. D-side plus E-side or, perhaps, just D-side (at a minimum)) and not such a short length as used in the exchange building -- either as tie pairs or jumpering.

Are you actually convinced that you have a fault somewhere in your circuit? (I don't want this to be taken the wrong way but it seems that you flit from one idea / one topic to another in an attempt to map a possible fault scenario onto your circuit.)  :-\
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Black Sheep

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Re: Bridge Tap
« Reply #13 on: April 06, 2014, 04:19:11 PM »

Alas, the downside to the WWW.
People go out of their way to 'find' a fault because they've read something on a forum. A bit like when you read the 'On-line doctors' symptomatic diagnosis of a certain condition, and you think to yourself, "Yeah, I've got that .... that's me that is" !!.

Not aimed at you Loading, just making a generalisation based upon personal experience. I can name all my ailments if you really want me to ??  ;D ;D ;D

 
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Loading

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Re: Bridge Tap
« Reply #14 on: April 06, 2014, 04:24:53 PM »

I take on board what you say, what would cause the clicking from other lines to be heard on ours, can hear router negotiating whilst using the phone if a resync is forced, hissing noise/ high pitches whistle when router connected. QLN very erratic after dark, large numbers of errors, noise margin works its way up to 15.0db after 6.0db noise margin reset, the line stats are worse after engineering work, loosing 10db upstream noise margin, attenuation increase, after I was told the only thing that was done was a tie pair mod, something's not right somewhere, it also seems that after the cabinet was supposedly flooded during the winter storms the line stats have been worse still? The clicking and hissing noise on the line must indicate a fault somewhere. It would make a nice read all of your ailments  ;D
After this work was done to the line just after the attenuation was higher with dreadful speeds with the line really bad, gradually it seems to have gotten better as if we were put onto a old pair which wasn't used, but still had a fault on, the hissing?
« Last Edit: April 06, 2014, 04:29:02 PM by Loading »
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