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Author Topic: EMI ?  (Read 65779 times)

Black Sheep

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Re: EMI ?
« Reply #135 on: August 02, 2013, 08:44:45 PM »

Tough call here for me, but this is how I see it.

I personally have a love/hate relationship with the ex-MOD guys and gals. Yes, they may have been at the top of their tree in their own arena, and a few that have shadowed me have got qualifications coming out of their ar5e, but they haven't got the slightest clue when it comes to civvy street faulting techniques. My caveat, as always, is the extremely poor training and buddying time these folk have to experience, doesn't make for a great 'Customer Experience'. As in all walks of life, you also get the, 'You can't tell me anything' individuals, but that's life in general.

With that off my chest, these noobies (like seasoned engineers) are also under the dreaded fear of being tin-tacked if they don't meet certain standards week in - week out. They are also told (just like us), to carry out a set procedure of tests, and if they pass, then basically walk away ...... job done.

I'm not going into the rights and wrongs of this again, been there ...... done that !!  :)

Speaking from experience, suggesting that REIN is the underlying fault is quite often a cop-out for some engineers. I'd say a high 70-80% of REIN cases I'm asked to attend, prove to be otherwise. Again, do not take my words to be gospel in respect to your fault, I'm talking in general terms, not specific, as I've never attended your fault, Kitz.
Lets say the circuit IS fault free on the pair of wires (MPF), which TBH it doesn't sound like from your description ??, and it IS in fact RFI/REIN causing the heartache ............. then Mr Marine Engineer should have rung our 'Diagnostic Centre of Excellence (DCoE) and chosen the REIN team option, and requested a REIN task be built.
If this hasn't happened, then nothing more will be done to rectify your perceived fault, until another fault case is built.

At the very least, a new D-side pair change should be carried out, as there could be a miniscule 'HR' on your existing D-side, that the PQT/Eclipse test systems can not detect ??

As an aside, I was recently tasked to visit an EU's premises as part of the e-Viper procedure. 8 Engineers previously, all PQT's good, hardly any errors in it's dormant state, or when the landline was rung, but DLM consistently dropped the profile day on day (Mentioned in another thread on here). By rigging up the HAWK to the MPF and constantly ringing the line, the tiniest of 'blips' (HR) was detected on the D-side cable [1]. A new pair was provided and I've not seen one single DLM event since then. Being on an 'e-Viper' means I'm absenced out of the system, and time constraints are not really an issue, without getting silly of course.

So, there we have it, an eclectic mix of getting the right engineer, with the right knowledge and the right tools, with the right amount of time given to fix it. If I were you, I'd put an extra quid on the 'Lotto'.

[1] This technique will not work on the JDSU, as it 'sees' ringing voltage as 'High Voltage Detected' and you can't see the screen for the warning !!  ::)



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ColinS

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Re: EMI ?
« Reply #136 on: August 02, 2013, 09:35:26 PM »

A succinct desription of life, as it must now sadly be, in OR.  That's what makes your shares worth more.  However, as I know, that's not how you feel the EU's ought to be treated. :friends:
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burakkucat

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Re: EMI ?
« Reply #137 on: August 02, 2013, 10:03:32 PM »

As your ISP is PlusNet they should be able to see that there is a defect in the circuit, as Bald_Eagle1 has extensively conditioned them to understand the various graphs that can be plotted from the data that has been harvested from a compliant Huawei HG612 modem.  ;)

Everything that you have experienced and recounted can be attributed to a HR or semi-conducting joint the D-side pair. It just needs the attention of an Openreach engineer who is competent at locating such a fault. (Personally I would connect my Tester 301C to the pair at the NTE5/A and look towards the PCP / FTTC / exchange and 'into' the -50V from the battery. Then make a call to your line and watch the trace as the 'ringing' voltage is applied. (Essentially the same technique as Black Sheep described, above.))

So get back to PlusNet, ask to see the engineer's notes and reject the logged outcome. You need an SFI engineering visit!
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kitz

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Re: EMI ?
« Reply #138 on: August 03, 2013, 01:20:23 PM »

Thank you everyone for your replies - , yesterday I thought there was nothing much more I could do, so decided to leave it last night and do something else  :drink:

Looking at DSL stats, my line started being noisy at about 10.30 last night wavering at times between 18.5dB and 4dB. I wont bother attaching a screen cap, as its just the usual stuff youve seen before.
It seemed to recover at about 8.30ish, when it settled at 17.5dB...  ......until the phone rang at just after mid-day.

  • I answered the phone, but the line was so noisy we couldn't hear each other. 
  • The caller rang back, still noisy.
  • 3rd attempt, much better.
  • I did a QLTest, and although slight hissing it was ok
  • at 12:25 I took another call and the usual thing..  upstream takes an immediate hit and downstream remains lower for duration of call.

Also note that the 2nd call knocked my adsl connection out completely and the line resync'd


------------
>>> Bald_Eagle1 has extensively conditioned them to understand the various graphs that can be plotted from the data that has been harvested from a compliant Huawei HG612 modem.

Plusnet have been fine, in fact they suggested that I had the graphs ready to show the engineer..  but said engineer didnt even want to know (dont think he understood SNRm and its importance with adsl)

>>> ask to see the engineer's notes and reject the logged outcome.

Plusnet sent them to me, without even asking, commenting that they arent very detailed.  They may mean something to BS*

Quote
Eng Notes: RARA, dial tone, VDSL modem sync and router authenitication ok. VDSL sync test from SSFP ok Up 20mbps, down 80mbps. Pair quality test carried out all test ok, REIN reading of 97 also indicated on PQT, AC balance is 79. All tests shown and described to EU. End user has tested line and advises that SNR is affected at intermittent periods throughout the day and particularly 0500hrs and line can be noisy. No voice issues found on site. No fault has been found when line is tested. Eclipse test ok, LTOK and GEA test Up 20 mbps and down 80mbps.

I guess now, that I'll have to wait another week for another appointment.

----
* Knows that BS has other things on this w/e so no hurry.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2013, 01:34:03 PM by kitz »
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burakkucat

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Re: EMI ?
« Reply #139 on: August 03, 2013, 04:54:43 PM »

As you have now experienced audible noise on telephony calls that is actually good news! :)

Are you able to record any of your telephone calls? If so, be prepared to do so when you have a noisy one . . . Collect the evidence.
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kitz

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Re: EMI ?
« Reply #140 on: August 03, 2013, 05:21:09 PM »

The noisy voice line isnt totally new, this is something I had already mentioned to Plusnet and also to the engineer who came yesterday, who didnt seem interested because it wasnt noisy at that particular time.

Ive just taken a call and the line quality was dreadful with lots of crackles and hisses.     Repeated by doing a QLTest which had a very audible crackle. 


Today is the first day however that it was so bad someone had to ring back.

Also one day last week when PN rang me to confirm a date/time for the engineers appt there were a couple of the times in the conversation when he couldnt hear me, yet I could hear him ok.

I dont have any way of recording voice calls that I know of :(
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burakkucat

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Re: EMI ?
« Reply #141 on: August 03, 2013, 05:34:32 PM »

Just had a sudden thought. Are PlusNet capable of running a Copper Integrated Demand Test:-\

If not, then why not?  :-X
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kitz

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Re: EMI ?
« Reply #142 on: August 03, 2013, 06:25:06 PM »

You know b*cat its really bugging me now when I heard of the 'CIDT test' and why I had to look it up and ended up at that very page you linked to.  It could of perhaps been somthing I stumbled across whilst searching to see what tests the JDSU did.

I do have these test results pasted in an early ticket.

Code: [Select]
GEA Service Test
Test Outcome Pass
Test Outcome Code GTC_FTTC_SERVICE_0000
Description GEA service test completed and no fault found .
Main Fault Location OK
Sync Status In Sync
Downstream Speed 80.0
Upstream Speed 20.0
Appointment Required N
Fault Report Advised N
Profile Name 0.128M-80M Downstream, Interleaving Off - 0.128M-20M Upstream, Interleaving Off
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ColinS

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Re: EMI ?
« Reply #143 on: August 04, 2013, 10:59:59 AM »

Just had a sudden thought. Are PlusNet capable of running a Copper Integrated Demand Test:-\

If not, then why not?  :-X
Mmm.  Been here myself before too ... on BE/ADSL2+.  Be couldn't do it because (IMO) their systems development people need (or certainly seem to ask for) several years notice to do anything (OK, perhaps a small exaggeration! :lol:)

However regarding
Quote
CPs don't need to update their systems to R1700 to use CIDT but may need to make local configuration changes to their internal XML and any automation relating to the B2B response/line test diagnositics along with updates to their processes and training.
I seem to remember that all CPs needed to migrate to R1700 (or beyond now, probably) by a certain time, and it was about a year ago I looked into that.
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Black Sheep

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Re: EMI ?
« Reply #144 on: August 04, 2013, 12:27:52 PM »

Quick reply.
As B*Cat states, it's great when there's audible noise, as it is obviously proof-positive of a fault somewhere. If this is the case, then the engineering visit doesn't have to be a 'Broadband' one, a simple 'Network' engineering visit would suffice.

The problem with this is the percentage chance of being TRC'd (Time Related Charges). As the PQT passes, also the Eclipse and the VDSL GEA test, there's a damned good chance that when you ring your CP to report the noise fault, the subsequent remote 'low end' test will also pass, with 'No fault found'. 
This then falls under the CDTA process (Conscious Decision To Appoint). This is a pretty harsh process, which sees an awful lot of TRC being applied. The engineer will pick up a CDTA task, visit the premises and undergo the necessary tests. If they all pass and no audible noise is heard then job done and see you later. The only way the EU will not get TRC'd, is if the recent line tests have shown there to be a fault. If they have always shown a 'LTOK' (Line Tests OK), then the EU (or the ISP who will probably pass it on) will get a charge levied against them.

The reason behind not charging on historic tests showing a fault, is that remedial work on a completely different task may have cured the problem ?? IE: A joint remake, or a length of Aerial Cable being renewed ... etc etc.

Not much help, rather guidance for those reading. :)
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kitz

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Re: EMI ?
« Reply #145 on: August 04, 2013, 03:09:24 PM »

>>> the percentage chance of being TRC'd

and there-in lies the problem.  The fault is intermittent and I never know when its going to show up.   Yes I can replicate the drop in SNRm very easy I only have to pick up the phone to do that.  My ISP should also be able to see the times when it has lost sync after the phone rings, but because my SNRm is 18dB, the line often hangs in there. 
Audible noise is sometimes there , and sometimes its fine.

TBH the last engineers visit didnt give me much hope, particularly after the CRC/FEC discussion and request for a TDR failed. From what I can gather he mostly did fttc installs, I cant recall now the name, home something?


To most of us here, theres something obviously wrong, its just trying to find out exactly what.
I dont want to be landed with a bill just because all is fine on the day the engineer arrives :/
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Black Sheep

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Re: EMI ?
« Reply #146 on: August 04, 2013, 07:27:45 PM »

That's the thing with intermittency. However, I believe that if you have been TRC's and a fault is found later, then the charges are reimbursed ? I'm not sure of time-scales between applied charges and potential reimbursements, but I'm sure your ISP will be able to inform you ?.

The key to this is as I mentioned before, the engineer should apply a TDR trace using his HAWK/mole, and ring the landline number whilst looking at the viewing screen for a change in trace. Alas, the new engineers wont have this kind of kit, and therefore wouldn't be able to do this. I would be tempted to try and raise a 'Chairmans letter' (e-Viper), as the probability is a long standing engineer will be despatched by the local OM (Operational Manager) ??
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kitz

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Re: EMI ?
« Reply #147 on: August 05, 2013, 04:44:25 PM »

Cheers BS,  I responded to my ticket the other day - I havent had a reply yet (guess its got caught up in the usual no BOT team at weekend thing), so am waiting to see what they come back with.
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kitz

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Re: EMI ?
« Reply #148 on: August 08, 2013, 01:19:38 PM »

Just to add to this (yep I know - Im using this thread as a log!)

Had a wee bit of a bumpy 24hrs with the upstream SNRm all over the place. If I didnt have an 18dB margin, this line would be dropping out constantly.

Also made a discovery that using the phone as well as being able to knock out the connection when the phone rings can also wet the line and bring my SNRm back up when things get too rocky.

Bit loading doesnt look too good atm though in my lower frequencies :(

PN are trying to escalate this. BT were supposed to ring yesterday.. but didnt.
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kitz

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Re: EMI ?
« Reply #149 on: August 08, 2013, 01:29:22 PM »

Another graph showing that I can improve my SNRm by opening the line and that dsl conditions are normally better for a while after Ive used the phone (not during though)

12:30 SNRm had started to decline again,
12:40 I simply took the phone off the hook for a min then replaced the receiver.. at which point the SNRm jumped back up to 18dB


---
Edited to add another graph

Whoops dont ring when SNRm is being stupid  :-X
« Last Edit: August 08, 2013, 01:43:55 PM by kitz »
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