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Author Topic: Problem With SN Margin at Night ... Or Not?  (Read 4146 times)

phi2008

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Problem With SN Margin at Night ... Or Not?
« on: July 26, 2011, 08:26:17 AM »

I've recently switched over to a C&W LLU connection and seem to be having a slight problem(I don't recall my old BT connection doing this). Basically I seem to be getting some re-syncs(SHOWTIME error 8000 whatever that is) at night; typically say two or three. The thing is my SN margin doesn't vary hugely according to RouterStats. Say a bit over 11dB during the day and maybe 10dB to a low of 9.5dB at night - that is there is no strong downward trend in my noise margin. Things work fine for many hours before a re-sync occurs and afterwards I seem to sync at practically the same speed/SN margin.

Here are a couple of graphics showing the SN margin and the time of disconnections -


Big red spike indicates router disconnection from Internet(ignore the small spikes)


RouterStats plot showing corresponding SN margin against time


So I'd like to get your opinions, are my re-syncs down to nighttime deterioration of the SN margin or is there some kind of fault on my line? FWIW I don't seem to get many errors on the line (router DG834GT running as ADSL1) and as I said I don't remember this happening when I was using BT's equipment.  :-\
 
« Last Edit: July 26, 2011, 09:46:27 AM by phi2008 »
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roseway

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Re: Problem With SN Margin at Night ... Or Not?
« Reply #1 on: July 26, 2011, 08:42:42 AM »

Your noise margin hovers around 10 dB most of the time, so there's no problem with that. What you have in the graph above is three individual events, which could be caused by a variety of things. If it only happens at night, then it's probably not a line fault.

You need to look for something which causes a very short burst of interference at the times in question. It could be (for example) a sparking thermostat or any sort of slightly defective electrical equipment. Just to be certain, you should eliminate your household telephone wiring from suspicion by connecting the router to the NTE5 test socket if you have one.
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phi2008

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Re: Problem With SN Margin at Night ... Or Not?
« Reply #2 on: July 26, 2011, 08:59:53 AM »

Thanks for the reply. I can't think of anything that would be causing interference, these drops have only been going on since I switched to C&W AFAIK(only been on C&W LLU for just over a week). Unfortunately I don't think I have a proper master socket - the phone line enters via a junction box in the hallway then splits two ways to a downstairs "main" socket and an upstairs extension.
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waltergmw

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Re: Problem With SN Margin at Night ... Or Not?
« Reply #3 on: July 27, 2011, 08:29:55 AM »

Hi Phi,

Do ensure that you only have wires in pins 2 & 5 in all sockets and they all have filters attached.

Kind regards,

Walter
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phi2008

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Re: Problem With SN Margin at Night ... Or Not?
« Reply #4 on: July 28, 2011, 11:14:39 AM »

I've disconnected the ring-wire on the upstairs extension socket where the router is connected(been disconnected throughout the line drops). The downstairs socket still has the ring wire attached(has filter inserted). Am I allowed to remove ring wires from the downstairs socket or would that count as BT property?

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roseway

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Re: Problem With SN Margin at Night ... Or Not?
« Reply #5 on: July 28, 2011, 11:48:16 AM »

To have any effect, you need to remove the ring wire at the master socket. Unfortunately, removing it at the extensions but leaving it connected at the master socket won't achieve any improvement. As far as I know, it's OK to remove the ring wire from the old-style master socket, so long as you don't disturb the incoming BT wiring.
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  Eric

phi2008

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Re: Problem With SN Margin at Night ... Or Not?
« Reply #6 on: July 28, 2011, 12:06:27 PM »

OK roseway, sorry to sound dumb, but even though my line enters the house and splits in two via a junction box ... I should still disconnect the ring-wire on my downstairs "pseudo"(?) master socket?
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HPsauce

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Re: Problem With SN Margin at Night ... Or Not?
« Reply #7 on: July 28, 2011, 12:16:12 PM »

You should disconnect the ring wire EVERYWHERE, i.e. all sockets and junction boxes.
It acts like an aerial, picking up interference, and if it finds a path to link to feed it into your active wiring (including via filters, phones, etc.) WILL cause problems. So best to isolate it everywhere, i.e at both ends of every cable run.

Filters (well all decent ones) recreate the ring signal locally if you do have equipment that needs it.  ;)
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burakkucat

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Re: Problem With SN Margin at Night ... Or Not?
« Reply #8 on: July 28, 2011, 05:57:50 PM »

. . . my line enters the house and splits in two via a junction box ... I should still disconnect the ring-wire on my downstairs "pseudo"(?) master socket?

If you could take two pictures at each location (junction box & sockets), that is an external view and the wiring connected to the terminals, we would be able to advise you of an acceptable modification (if any).
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phi2008

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Re: Problem With SN Margin at Night ... Or Not?
« Reply #9 on: July 28, 2011, 07:44:54 PM »

Here is a link to a picture of the junction box -

http://imgur.com/KRL2X


After reading the guide on this site ... it looks like a bit of a rat's nest, but I'll try and describe what I think I'm looking at. On the right hand side of the junction box the external BT wire enters together with the wire for the upstairs extension(post 1980 extension wiring colours). On the left hand side of the junction box the extension for the downstairs "master socket" enters(pre 1980 wiring colours).

So I assume I detach the brown and green wires for the left hand extension cable ring-wires, and the orange/white wire coming in from the right-hand upstairs extension cable(can't seem to see the corresponding white/orange wire, am I missing something?)?


I will try to get some photos of the upstairs and downstairs sockets tomorrow but I think they'll be fairly unexceptional.

EDIT: Will try to provide external junction box pic tomorrow, if necessary. 
« Last Edit: July 28, 2011, 07:55:55 PM by phi2008 »
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burakkucat

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Re: Problem With SN Margin at Night ... Or Not?
« Reply #10 on: July 28, 2011, 10:09:54 PM »

Thank you for showing us that image. It's a GPO 700-series junction box (dating from the 1959 to 1981 time frame). Here is my reading of the wiring --

(a) Right hand side, screw terminals numbered 1 to 4, from the top:

No. 1, solid orange wire, incoming A-wire.
No. 2, solid white wire, incoming B-wire.
No. 3, unused.
No. 4, it is not clear if there is a wire connected at that screw terminal. Would you please check and if yes, report its colour and with which cable it is associated.

(b) Left hand side, screw terminals numbered 1 to 4, from the top:

No. 1, solid brown wire, white/blue wire, the respective A-wires to the sockets, should be connected to IDC5 (or equivalent screw terminal) at each.
No. 2, solid blue wire, blue/white wire, the respective B-wires to the sockets, should be connected to IDC2 (or equivalent screw terminal) at each.
No. 3, it is not clear (as 4, above)
No. 4, it is not clear (as 4, above)

So, as previously suggested and dependent upon your rechecking of the above, you could disconnect the solid brown, solid green & orange/white wires within that junction box, coiling them neatly out of the way and ensuring that the bare conductors do not touch each other or the terminals.

At each socket, you should then disconnect the solid green & solid brown wires and the orange/white & white/orange wires, if connected. In essence, you should just have the solid blue & solid orange wires from the left hand cable connected to IDC2 & IDC5 of the socket, to which it feeds and the blue/white & white/blue wires from the right hand cable connected to IDC2 & IDC5 of the socket, to which it feeds.
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HPsauce

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Re: Problem With SN Margin at Night ... Or Not?
« Reply #11 on: July 28, 2011, 11:52:34 PM »

Indeed, not all clear, but I'd remove ALL wires from the "bottom left" and curl them all back out of the way, cutting off any exposed bare metal.
I think that's what BK* is saying as well.....
(and clean up all the sockets to just 2 and 5)

I'm a bit concerned that it looks like 2 and 4 on the left are joined together..... :o
« Last Edit: July 28, 2011, 11:54:38 PM by HPsauce »
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burakkucat

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Re: Problem With SN Margin at Night ... Or Not?
« Reply #12 on: July 29, 2011, 02:39:49 AM »

Quote
I think that's what BK* is saying as well.....

Yes.

Quote
I'm a bit concerned that it looks like 2 and 4 on the left are joined together..... :o

I think you will find that is just an illusion. ::)
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phi2008

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Re: Problem With SN Margin at Night ... Or Not?
« Reply #13 on: August 04, 2011, 02:30:26 PM »

Sorry I'm a bit late replying to this thread ... I'm holding off playing with the junction box while my ISP changes some settings for my ADSL. From the replies you've given things seem fairly clear and I'm assuming BT are OK with alterations to the junction box regarding extension cables?
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waltergmw

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Re: Problem With SN Margin at Night ... Or Not?
« Reply #14 on: August 04, 2011, 03:14:40 PM »

Hi Phi,

Yes it is perfectly O.K. for you to remove the bottom front section of a master socket as that is considered to be part of your responsibility.
You man NOT officially tamper with any wiring at the back of the fitting.

Kind regards,
Walter
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