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[kitz]

You could leave DHCP on the Zyxel. No DHCP on the TP link. Sounds like a clash to me. It doesn’t matter where DHCP comes from as long as the device is on the same subnet.

Tony

Whenever I've set up APs or range extenders before I usually do let the main modem/router perform the DHCP and it doesn't take long to add the other router, which is why I thought this would be a quick job to swap over too.

However, this particular time I was concerned about the Zyxel only being able to dish out a limited amount of IP addresses and therefore wanted the TPlink to handle the IPs for the wireless devices.   I was afraid that by letting the Zyxel continue to be in charge of DHCP then I may just be making things worse by adding another piece of hardware onto the network which required yet another IP.

The Zyxel seems to come unstuck somewhere around the 12 active devices (inc LAN) mark.   From what I've observed it's also not very quick at reallocating IPs from devices it's dropped and seems to hold the dropped IP almost as if its reserved for a while.    There can be 'free' IPs showing on an arp query, but the Zyxel wont let them be put back in use for up to several hours later.

[g3uiss]

That’s a fair assumption, and as you have the TPlink going it will be interesting if it’s solved. I usually ( even at home) have DHCP on a server.

It could be an interesting lesson, with the proliferation of wifi devices that’s likely to crop up again with many users. I suspect ISP supplied routers may be even worse !

Tony

[kitz]

Lovely.   2 devices & the Blink system up and working so far.     
Can't believe I spent all that time thinking it was the settings and in the end it was the network cable in LAN1 rather than LAN4.
Why it didn't cross my mind to think of that - boy am I kicking myself now at the amount of wasted time checking and rechecking settings.


Need to go around the house and swap all connection settings now on about 30 other devices

This will only have to be a temporary solution as I'm not 100% happy with the state of the wiring..  and one major thing which I'd forgotten.   
The TPlink runs hot - Very hot to the point it was uncomfortable to touch.   Granted I'd laid it on its front when I swapped the cables over, but its had nearly an hour to cool down since then.   iirc it was one of the points mentioned when we were beta testing them.

[Alex Atkin UK]

That’s a fair assumption, and as you have the TPlink going it will be interesting if it’s solved. I usually ( even at home) have DHCP on a server.

It could be an interesting lesson, with the proliferation of wifi devices that’s likely to crop up again with many users. I suspect ISP supplied routers may be even worse !

Tony

I prefer to keep all core networking to a single device (so that server maintainence doesn't kill the whole network), but then that device is running pfSense so its a very different scenario to a consumer router.

[sevenlayermuddle]

This will only have to be a temporary solution as I'm not 100% happy with the state of the wiring..  and one major thing which I'd forgotten.   
The TPlink runs hot - Very hot to the point it was uncomfortable to touch.   Granted I'd laid it on its front when I swapped the cables over, but its had nearly an hour to cool down since then.   iirc it was one of the points mentioned when we were beta testing them.

I personally regard ‘running hot’ as a big minus vote.

That’s partly because of wasted energy which equates to increased cost as well as environmental issues.   A router that consumes ‘n’ watts, left on 24x7 at current prices will add something very broadly around ‘n’ pounds per year to your electricity bill. 

It’s also because one of the most common component failures in low cost consumer equipment is aluminium capacitors, whose life expectancy (dictated by their chemistry) varies exponentially with temperature.   Broadly speaking, I believe, capacitor life might be doubled for every 10C drop in ambient temperature.

[Alex Atkin UK]

I personally regard ‘running hot’ as a big minus vote.

That’s partly because of wasted energy which equates to increased cost as well as environmental issues.   A router that consumes ‘n’ watts, left on 24x7 at current prices will add something very broadly around ‘n’ pounds per year to your electricity bill. 

It’s also because one of the most common component failures in low cost consumer equipment is aluminium capacitors, whose life expectancy (dictated by their chemistry) varies exponentially with temperature.   Broadly speaking, I believe, capacitor life might be doubled for every 10C drop in ambient temperature.

True, but were talking a watt or two, its fairly insignificant.

The capacitor issue is a fair point, but I had an old Netgear that ran hot and I only had to replace the filter capacitor long after I had stopped using it for normal router duties.  I had flashed it with OpenWRT and given it to a friend to automatically connect to BT FON and NAT it, as they couldn't afford broadband.  Its kinda unusual that the capacitors in the PSU didn't go first as they almost always run much hotter as they have zero ventilation.

[sevenlayermuddle]

True, but were talking a watt or two, its fairly insignificant.

If it were just a watt or two, it wouldn’t be getting hot.   A quick search shows that Ispreview measured around 10-14Watts for the VR900, costing in other words, very vaguely, £10-15 -ish per year.  Not a major concern if you’ve only one router but adds up if you start deploying extra ones. 

https://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.php/2018/06/2018-update-best-vdsl-routers-for-uk-fttc-fibre-broadband-isps.html/2

I can’t remember how much my own routers have consumed when measured, but gut feeling is the TP-Link is more than average, consistent with being hotter than average.

[Ronski]

The Zyxel seems to come unstuck somewhere around the 12 active devices (inc LAN) mark.

I'm wondering if there's something wrong with the Zyxel, as you know in the past I used one at home, and also used one at work and I'm not aware of either having issues* - both networks must have exceeded 12 devices easily.

*Only issues I had was with a couple of Chinese phones which had wifi issues at home, but every other device was fine, although at home I use a separate AP.

[kitz]

So far so good as far as the Blink system is concerned and no dropouts on that side.   Its picking up activity fine and I live viewed the postman this morning after the alert..   and just this minute next doors cat kindly triggered it whilst walking up to my front door and sniffing the step

The TPlink is warm this morning as its now stood on end, centre top its like putting your hand on a radiator which is cooling down.  But yesterday I'd left it laid on its front for a short while after I swapped the cable from LAN1>LAN4 and it was blisteringly hot.  Even the desk where it had been laid down on was uncomfortably hot to touch.   

I spent ages last night putting devices back on,  thats a PITA.   I did ~16 individual devices and switches.   
My NAS is still running from a static IP attached to the Zyxel and the Hive System (9) is also still using a reserved IP.
I still need to do several plugs and a few things I don't use so often such as the printer, so about another 10 to go............

However I'm struggling to get my TV, the downstairs firestick and the sound plate connected as none of them can pick up a signal from the TPlink    All these 3 are in a notorious blackspot which has always been problematic.  I even wrote about it in the Zyxel review  "This location was a previous wi-fi dead spot and Id previously had to install CAT5 to get a decent stream to the TV.  The VMG8324 totally negates the previous need for a run of ethernet cable."   Unfortunately I ripped out the cable about 4 years ago after having new carpet laid.    Another trip to the loft is in order to get a long length of CAT5 to temp move the TPlink a bit nearer to try setting it up, but that will have to be for another day.

I'm not really happy with the existing set up and I've got the TPlink in space where I really wanted to keep the Show, purely because I was trying to give some devices best chance of getting a signal.   Wireless penetration on the VMG8324 is definitely much better, even if it doesn't have ac.

I'm wondering if there's something wrong with the Zyxel,

Also beginning to wonder - especially after trying to set up the TPlink.   I could see there may be as low as 5 active devices listed in arp but it just wouldn't release an IP address to anything new attempting to connect.  As I mentioned in previous post, its only recently its been struggling and not always switching on porch light when asked..  and the most annoying thing not giving an IP to my phone when I walk in.  Last month I exceeded by data use for the first time ever and once aware I could see that it wasn't giving an IP to my phone and I was continuing to use data when I thought I was on wifi..   and refused to connect until I rebooted the router.    Nail in the coffin is the fact the Blink system needs at least 3 IPs to be able to function properly.   9 times out of 10 it was failing to allocate an IP address to the camera once it detected movement.   More often than not the way I knew someone was at the door was because the Show and an echo dot would announce "I'm having problems connecting to the Internet".   The Zyxel was obviously attempting to release their IPs but then wouldn't give them back either to cam nor the device(s) it took them from.

That said there is definitely a limit and it is small (<16).  This limit affects not just the Zyxels and I suspect it may be related to a specific wireless chipset.      You can ignore what the GUI says (32) because it definitely will not.   I am not sure where the restriction is but Bob Pullen gives a clue in respect of another router

They have however confirmed that the platform configuration is limited to 16 devices on the Wi-Fi interface. This limitation is not at the DHCP layer.

The 16 is still being disputed and several saying its less than that.      If you search around then this problem is something beginning to rear its head only over about the past year or so as more people get smart home systems.     I read a post on a forum somewhere where someone had said they had in the past written software for wifi devices and it was a limitation of some of the cheaper wifi chipsets.  btw he also said something about it not needing much memory or CPU  which was something 7LM recently queried.    If I find that post again I shall link to it. 

[Alex Atkin UK]

If it were just a watt or two, it wouldn’t be getting hot.   A quick search shows that Ispreview measured around 10-14Watts for the VR900, costing in other words, very vaguely, £10-15 -ish per year.  Not a major concern if you’ve only one router but adds up if you start deploying extra ones. 

https://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.php/2018/06/2018-update-best-vdsl-routers-for-uk-fttc-fibre-broadband-isps.html/2

I can’t remember how much my own routers have consumed when measured, but gut feeling is the TP-Link is more than average, consistent with being hotter than average.

In my experience, almost all routers seem to come with 12v 2A PSUs, pulling somewhere between 12-24W.  IMO the biggest difference on how hot they feel is simply how well they dissipate that heat, not that they actually use significantly difference amounts of power to each other.

For example the old Netgear I fixed with a bad capacitor used to feel quite hot and actually used less power than newer routers I own that do not.

[sevenlayermuddle]

In my experience, almost all routers seem to come with 12v 2A PSUs, pulling somewhere between 12-24W.  IMO the biggest difference on how hot they feel is simply how well they dissipate that heat, not that they actually use significantly difference amounts of power to each other.

For example the old Netgear I fixed with a bad capacitor used to feel quite hot and actually used less power than newer routers I own that do not.

The markings on PSU bricks generally describe the maximum it will supply,  a bit like a 13A plug.   It does not mean the device will consume that maximum.

Electronics and classical physics is rarely seen as ‘opinion’ these days.  If you’re going to challenge it,  you’d need some pretty compelling evidence, to be taken seriously.

[tubaman]

With respect to PSUs, I always assume that any router with a USB connection must have at least 500mA 'spare' for that to use.  Thus a router with a 2A PSU and a USB socket would not be pulling more than 1.5A in normal use.
I've no idea if that is a fair assumption or not.
 

[Alex Atkin UK]

With respect to PSUs, I always assume that any router with a USB connection must have at least 500mA 'spare' for that to use.  Thus a router with a 2A PSU and a USB socket would not be pulling more than 1.5A in normal use.
I've no idea if that is a fair assumption or not.
 

That's 500mA at 5V, so let's just call it 300mA at 12V due to conversion losses.

There's also conversion efficiency of any given PSU, so one outputting 1.5A could be pulling way more watts than another.

So sure I admit, its not a perfect example of how much the router will consume as more USB ports = more peak current availability required.

In fact I'm well aware the PSU is a poor example, as some manufacturers under-spec badly, others over-spec.  So some will only use 50% the majority of the time, others may use 90%.  Some PSUs will run hot due to inefficient design or pushed too hard, others will not.

But my point still stands, I wouldn't judge a router simply by how hot it feels.  It may just mean it has a heatsink in that spot with little space between the case and heatsink to allow the heat to dissipate, so it heats up the case more than one with more volume inside or a bigger heatsink.  Or the chips that run the hottest may be closer together.

I'm not denying that it "feels" safer if the case feels cooler, but its not necessarily an indication of a router being less efficient than another or even its long-term reliability.  What feels hot to the touch is nothing to a silicon chip.

[tubaman]

That's 500mA at 5V, so let's just call it 300mA at 12V due to conversion losses.

There's also conversion efficiency of any given PSU, so one outputting 1.5A could be pulling way more watts than another.
...

Good point ref 12V - I forgot about that bit.
The design of the PSU is indeed very important and some are certainly a lot better than others.
As most consumer kit is built to a price then I feel that some manufacturers do as little as they can get away with to make sure it is both safe and will outlast the warranty by a reasonable margin.
Like Kitz, I don't equipment that runs uncomfortably hot even though I know that the chips can easily stand it. It particularly concerns me when power supplies run hot as I know that heat and electrolytic capacitors are not good friends.
 

[sevenlayermuddle]

Interesting comparison here, of different routers’ power consumptions based on their own tests and/or manufacturers data.  Idle consumption in their comparisons range from about 4W up to about 12W...

https://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.php/2017/01/energy-usage-uk-home-broadband-routers-big-isps-compared.html

As linked a few posts back, the VR900 mentioned by Kitz was tested by ISPreview at 10-14W, which seems to be at the high end of things.

I measured my own Billion 7800dxl yesterday,  which generally seems to run nice and cool.  On a cheap plugin power meter it showed about 6W idle, 7W when streaming an HD movie over WiFi to a TV about 20 feet away, two rooms distant.   But that’s without DSL as I’ve a separate modem.  All ethernet ports are populated, but wouldn’t have been seeing much traffic when measured.

@Kitz, apols all of this is somewhat off topic.