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Author Topic: Banded profile and lots of FEC errors  (Read 4516 times)

edward

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Banded profile and lots of FEC errors
« on: March 08, 2015, 02:43:14 PM »

My line became banded a couple of months back. Recently I've been monitoring it with DSLstats and I'm sure the banding has come about because of a very high number of FEC errors. My stats are online under btb676.

The Interstitial faceplate and modem are on the wall backing on to the airing cupboard. It is inches away from the central heating pump, the 3 way motorised valve and remote CH controller. Also the twisted pair incoming wire runs alongside mains cable for a couple of meters before reaching the Interstitial faceplate.

Today I did a short test. I turned off the mains to the house and ran the modem and router with UPS and monitored the stats with my laptop fro 30 mins. It was enough to convince me the high FEC errors were at least partly due to mains interference from inside the house.

I've attached an FEC error snapshot. First 30 mins is on battery power (Though I turned the house alarm system off separately and that caused the small spike around 11.50).

After power was restored I put the hot water on (gas boiler with hot water cylinder), and that gave rise to the enormous spike. The next period was when I powered down the modem for 30 mins to restore back to mains and around 12.45 was back to normal. The period before the big spike compared to 12.45 onwards is enough to convince me that  mains born interference is a big cause of the FEC errors, and I suspect most of it coming from the heating and hot water system/controllers inches behind the modem.

I'm having the Interstitial faceplate re-sited to where the BT cable enters the property, and it will also be away from mains wiring.

The question really is will the banded profile eventually get removed once the FEC errors come down?
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NewtronStar

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Re: Banded profile and lots of FEC errors
« Reply #1 on: March 08, 2015, 03:38:53 PM »

The question really is will the banded profile eventually get removed once the FEC errors come down?

I would hope so but my cut says no and the reason is i don't think the DLM would see FEC's as a significant change to your line but in saying that if it reduces your errored seconds then the DLM could unband the profile.

But if the DLM has become stuck then you may need a Broadband engineer to reset the line and don't know if the interstitial faceplate re-sited engineer could do that  :-\
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ardsar

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Banded profile and lots of FEC errors
« Reply #2 on: March 08, 2015, 05:06:10 PM »

Your line performance looks very similar to mine and can be seen in DSL stats. I've been banded now for over a month and I assume i will stay this way unless my 24hr eroded seconds stays below 140. Currently it averages between 150 to 300 on a bad day.

Your ES seems low for now so hopefully your banding will get removed after a couple of weeks.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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WWWombat

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Re: Banded profile and lots of FEC errors
« Reply #3 on: March 09, 2015, 12:54:34 AM »

Banding will not have come about because of the FEC counter, but the FEC counter does, indirectly, show what has caused banding to happen. It is all a bit chicken-or-egg.

Your banding will have come about because of DLM intervention: in fact, banding represents quite a severe level of intervention, used when the first few mechanisms have failed to improve the situation.

DLM will have been triggered to intervene, in turn, because of the number of errors seen on your line - which are caused by noise, and can be seen seen by the CRC counter (or the OHFerr counter; same thing). DLM doesn't care about the actual CRC count directly; it really cares about how those CRC errors are spread out over time - so it monitors the rate of Errored Seconds (ES), watching for it to exceed a "red" threshold level in 24 hours. The actual threshold value changes, depending on the setting of the speed/stability requirement, which depends on way your ISP ordered the line from BTW/Openreach. For Plusnet customers, on the speediest setting, the ES threshold is 2880 in 24 hours. For TalkTalk, on the middle stability level, the ES threshold appears to be 1440 in 24 hours. There is one further, more stable, setting that probably has a threshold of 720 ES's per day.

An ES count above this "red" threshold, for a single day, will normally trigger DLM to intervene. Once DLM has intervened, it will usually have turned the FEC error correction process on - with the aim of trapping the errors and automatically correcting them - and will usually turn interleaving on too, to make FEC more effective.

Any more days above the "red" threshold will cause DLM to re-intervene more deeply.

Once the FEC process is running and tuned correctly (possibly in combination with banding), most bursts of noise on the line, which would have gone to cause a CRC error, will be corrected and become FEC events instead (so the FEC counter is not a count of errors, but a count of fixes). If a burst of noise is bad enough, the FEC process cannot correct it, and the error will become a CRC event instead, and affect the ES counter as normal. A properly-tuned FEC process will reduce the CRC counter and the ES rate by one or more orders of magnitude.

So, now that you are measuring your line, the FEC counter that you can see is an indication of the errors that have been fixed by the FEC process. They show where a burst of noise happened, and where CRC errors would have happened if FEC hadn't been turned on by DLM intervention.

So your line's problems are indeed shown up by the FEC counter, but aren't directly caused by it.

Getting DLM to de-intervene then follows this process in reverse to remove banding, or to turn off FEC, but DLM is conservative in the extreme. You have to show repeated "good" days for it to relent...

In reverse, the ES counter needs to be below a "green" threshold; where the "red" threshold was 2880/day, the "green" threshold is 288/day - so the ES counter needs to be less than this - but for multiple days. A reduced ES count suggests to DLM that your problem has gone away, so it should relent. Quite often, a reduced ES count goes hand-in-hand with a reduced FEC rate.

Now the tricky part, as the whole process isn't very public...

Imagine a case where the FEC process is tuned perfectly - every burst of noise is corrected by FEC - but is needed very badly, as noise is prevalent. In this case, there will be a significant FEC count, but a zero CRC and ES count. If DLM relented here, it would be the wrong thing to do.

Thus some people believe that for DLM to de-intervene, it needs both the ES level to be below the "green" threshold, and it also requires the FEC rate to be limited somewhat. However, no-one knows if this is true, and if it were, what the FEC thresholds would be.

So the short answer to your question is that DLM will indeed reduce/remove banding, and remove FEC/interleaving, once the noise is reduced so it causes fewer CRC errors.
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edward

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Re: Banded profile and lots of FEC errors
« Reply #4 on: March 09, 2015, 08:46:36 AM »

Thanks for the replies, great information. Very comprehensive, its appreciated.

ES look to be under the limit at an average of 98 per day for the last 24hrs, which is the only figure I have now. I'll see how the average settles over a few more days.



Code: [Select]
Per second Per minute Per hour  Per day

CRC Up 0 0.02 1.13 27.2
Down 0 0.20 12.1 291

FEC Up 0 0 0 0
Down 24.5 1469 88164 2115944

HEC Up 0 0 0 0
Down 0.04 2.30 138 3313

ES Up 0 0.01 0.57 13.6
Down 0 0.07 4.11 98.6

SES Up 0 0 0 0
Down 0 0 0 0


I'll go ahead with the moving the socket since the times of highest errors coincides with heating/hot water coming on. So trying to eliminate that can only be good and I'll see how the graphs look afterwards. As long as the ES remain below the threshold banding should relax then.

Thanks again.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2015, 08:49:27 AM by edward »
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ardsar

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Re: Banded profile and lots of FEC errors
« Reply #5 on: March 10, 2015, 04:53:41 PM »

Out of interest - what modem/router are you using?
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edward

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Re: Banded profile and lots of FEC errors
« Reply #6 on: March 10, 2015, 07:53:08 PM »

Modem is HG612, router Asus RT-N66U.
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ardsar

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Re: Banded profile and lots of FEC errors
« Reply #7 on: March 11, 2015, 08:06:52 AM »

OK.  was wondering if you were using an Billion, as your stats were so similar to mine.

I've been banded since November, so decided last night to put the Openreach ECI modem back in to see if i can get the band removed. Unfortunately i can not monitor with DSLstats however it is unlocked so i can manually see sync rate and S/N.

What was interesting was the upload speed increased from around 6.3 to 8.4 with  6.1db S/N. However the download reduced slightly from 24.99 to 24.6 with a S/N at the time of 6.2dB. Prior to this, the Billion was synced at 24.99M with a S/N around 7.5dB. Would the increase in upload speed have an influence on the downstream S/N or is it just down to the sensitivity of the different hardware?


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edward

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Re: Banded profile and lots of FEC errors
« Reply #8 on: March 18, 2015, 08:05:24 AM »

G.INP was enabled this morning, and what a difference it has made to my stats. So far FEC errors have gone down by a factor of 10 or more, (though still spikes when heating comes on), ES are none.

Downstream SNRM went from approx 9db to approx 12 db, yet sync nudged up a fraction.

MyDSLWebStats  btb676

Does this mean after a period continuing like this, SNRM will likely reduce back towards 6db and sync rate increase?
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ardsar

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Re: Banded profile and lots of FEC errors
« Reply #9 on: March 18, 2015, 08:25:20 AM »

How I wish I was on a Huawei cabinet. Guess the S/N increased as you are still banded but have now had a lot of the overheads caused by interleave removed. Hopefully your speed will increase but I guess it's early days and we need to collect more data on how g.inp will improve things.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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edward

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Re: Banded profile and lots of FEC errors
« Reply #10 on: March 18, 2015, 08:51:06 AM »

Indeed early days and lucky to have the Huawei cab.

So far G.INP seems to help, ping has reduced, the noticeable slight delay when browsing before has gone, and throughput seems about the same.

I'm not so disappointed with only syncing around 27400kbps, though with another possible 10000kbps it would be nice to have a bit more.

I'm getting the socket moved next week so should get rid of those noise spikes due to heating coming on and off.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2015, 08:53:28 AM by edward »
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Chrysalis

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Re: Banded profile and lots of FEC errors
« Reply #11 on: March 19, 2015, 08:42:48 PM »

Stil heard nothing back from joe garner reference the postcode lottery on quality of service.

Am happy for you Hauwei guys tho, why did BT take so long to adopt this technology? other telcos have been using it for years. Bet the potential savings on callouts are huge.

Also the increase of sync speed actually isnt that much a surprise when you consider there is complaints from people moving from sky to plusnet on ADSL about losing sync speed.
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Ixel

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Re: Banded profile and lots of FEC errors
« Reply #12 on: March 20, 2015, 06:23:40 PM »

Just to add, despite having millions to billions of FEC in a day (on the ASUS DSL-AC68U), DLM is currently increasing my downstream banding and reducing the downstream INP. It has done this twice over the last week or so. I don't believe FEC is factored by DLM, most likely SNRM delta and ES+SES are.
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edward

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Re: Banded profile and lots of FEC errors
« Reply #13 on: March 22, 2015, 08:39:09 AM »

It's rather academic now. When I posted I had no idea G.INP was about to be applied to this connection, now it has it's all changed for the better.

There was a re-sync today, reducing the SNRM from 11.5dB to 10dB, and actual sync rate up to 30000kbps. A good move in the right direction, and I expect it will continue to creep this way, gradually reducing the banding as the line is now stable.



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