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Author Topic: 1500 byte MTU on FTTC, possible.  (Read 21704 times)

ejs

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Re: 1500 byte MTU on FTTC, possible.
« Reply #15 on: April 21, 2015, 06:37:34 AM »

If "ifconfig ppp0" gives the MTU as 1500 for a PPPoA ADSL connection, I guess it's just not including the PPP overheads there, the same way as the MTU on eth0 shown by ifconfig doesn't include the Ethernet header.
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Charles

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Re: 1500 byte MTU on FTTC, possible.
« Reply #16 on: April 21, 2015, 12:04:17 PM »

merlin's version of asuswrt now has 1500mtu pppoe support built in
OpenWRT also has support here.

...its managing to fit 1500 bytes plus PPP overhead into 1500 bytes.
It's not, it fits into 1508 bytes with baby jumbo frames.
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boost

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Re: 1500 byte MTU on FTTC, possible.
« Reply #17 on: April 21, 2015, 02:21:02 PM »

It still makes no sense how its managing to fit 1500 bytes plus PPP overhead into 1500 bytes.  Its sorcery I tells ya!  >:D

It's going to need the ISP network to be configured for >1500 bytes, I would guess. It sounds like a good idea if it is wholly supported by the provider.

I can imagine mega issues if support is sketchy, which is what appears to be the case here? Haven't you had speed issues, arguably worse than anyone else, for quite some time now, Chrysalis? :o
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Chrysalis

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Re: 1500 byte MTU on FTTC, possible.
« Reply #18 on: April 21, 2015, 03:40:46 PM »

boost, no tommy has it the worst and I have been on a 1492 mtu for at least 2-3 months now.
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Alex Atkin UK

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Re: 1500 byte MTU on FTTC, possible.
« Reply #19 on: April 21, 2015, 06:04:16 PM »

It's not, it fits into 1508 bytes with baby jumbo frames.

I understand how it could work on all-in-one devices, but how does that work via the HG612 when THAT has all its interfaces set to 1500?

As for OpenWRT, its a bummer its only available on fairly new builds as I can't get anything newer to boot on the PC I use as a router.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2015, 06:09:35 PM by Alex Atkin UK »
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iMx

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Re: 1500 byte MTU on FTTC, possible.
« Reply #20 on: April 23, 2015, 10:52:15 AM »

OpenBSD also has support as well :)

Code: [Select]
# ifconfig pppoe
pppoe0: flags=8851<UP,POINTOPOINT,RUNNING,SIMPLEX,MULTICAST> rdomain 11 mtu 1500
        priority: 0
        dev: vlan11 state: session
        sid: 0x226 PADI retries: 15 PADR retries: 0 time: 20d 15:43:02
        sppp: phase network authproto chap authname "bthomehub@btbroadband.com"
        groups: pppoe
        status: active
        inet 86.141.x.x --> 172.16.x.x netmask 0xffffffff
pppoe1: flags=8851<UP,POINTOPOINT,RUNNING,SIMPLEX,MULTICAST> rdomain 12 mtu 1500
        priority: 0
        dev: vlan12 state: session
        sid: 0x51 PADI retries: 16 PADR retries: 0 time: 20d 14:40:12
        sppp: phase network authproto chap authname "bthomehub@btbroadband.com"
        groups: pppoe
        status: active
        inet 86.141.x.x --> 172.16.x.x netmask 0xffffffff
« Last Edit: April 23, 2015, 11:08:02 AM by iMx »
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Alex Atkin UK

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Re: 1500 byte MTU on FTTC, possible.
« Reply #21 on: April 24, 2015, 05:34:54 AM »

The question is, does it improve performance?
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iMx

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Re: 1500 byte MTU on FTTC, possible.
« Reply #22 on: April 24, 2015, 11:12:10 AM »

I disagree that that is the main question/benefit - although most around here seem to favour raw speed over everything else :) 

For me, the main benefit is not having to scrub traffic on the firewall for a lower MSS and so reduces the load on the router/firewall, reduces potential CPU latency, and is generally 'cleaner'.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2015, 07:53:01 AM by iMx »
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Alex Atkin UK

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Re: 1500 byte MTU on FTTC, possible.
« Reply #23 on: April 25, 2015, 02:12:46 AM »

Not sure what you mean by scrubbed, as isn't MTU negotiated via TCP/IP between the client and server?

If that fails, your ISP will do the majority of the work there as downstream packets too large will be dropped at the other side of the PPPoE link due to not being able to fit down it.

So you are only dealing with traffic coming from your LAN.  All I did was set a 1480 MTU for my whole LAN and be done with it.  Although I noticed no difference whatsoever between that or when I had it to set 1500, as TCP/IP must have been doing it job.

And yes, I can still reach Gigabit speeds with an MTU of 1480.

I'm not saying you are wrong, I do not know that much when it comes to networking, but I haven't noticed any obvious problems using 1480.  Its why I wish I could try 1500, to see if it makes any difference at all.
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ejs

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Re: 1500 byte MTU on FTTC, possible.
« Reply #24 on: April 25, 2015, 07:14:56 AM »

Routers will typically have a firewall rule which modifies the MSS value in outgoing TCP SYN packets, replacing a too large value with the maximum allowed for the MTU. TCP MSS being the MTU minus the size of the TCP and IP headers.
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Chrysalis

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Re: 1500 byte MTU on FTTC, possible.
« Reply #25 on: April 25, 2015, 07:15:47 AM »

any mtu that isnt the standard 1500 means routers have to do more work, imx is correct.
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boost

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Re: 1500 byte MTU on FTTC, possible.
« Reply #26 on: April 25, 2015, 10:59:23 AM »

I'm blonde, so I like to simplify things as much as possible. I feel like I don't really have a firm grasp on this subject so here are my thoughts which I urge anyone to challenge in the hope it will help me better understand :)


The OSI layer, we've all heard of it? 7 odd layers. Here's a freshly stolen image from Google:



With simplification in mind, ignore everything bar layer 2/3/4 because it more or less doesn't really exist:



Also referred to as:



Natively, referred to as (the PDU/protocol data unit) of each layer:



The upper layers fit inside the lower layers. They are 'encapsulated' by the lower layers. Imagine your foot, in a sock, in a shoe:



Thus, layer 2 is the largest layer because everything else is ultimately inside it.

Every layer has, more or less, the same format.

Data + Header. Data is whatever is being sent of any value and the headers contain things like where it came from and where it's going.


The Data+Header of layer 4, is stuffed into the Data portion of Layer 3

The Data+Header of layer 3, is stuffed into the Data portion of Layer 2

The 'Data' of layer 2, the frame, is effectively the gold. It is the MTU.

It looks a bit like this:



To further complicate things, some vendors will describe their MTU as the Data portion only. Some vendors will describe it as the Data+Header. Cisco and Juniper used to do this apparently, dunno whether it's still the case.


So what's the problem? PPPoE.
Our xDSL connections don't use ethernet from end to end. PPPoE is wedged in between. I don't really know why it's still used but I suspect for it's accounting features and because historically, it's always been used for xDSL/ATM.

So what layer does PPPoE sit on? The clue is in the name. PPP over Ethernet. 'Over' in this case means 'inside'. It sits inside that Data portion.

OK, cool. So it sits on layer 3?

That would be my natural conclusion too but it seems not. This is where the OSI gets a bit messy. PPPoE needs it's own layer because, it too, has a Data+Header construct.
8 bytes get robbed from ethernet to pay for it. Our Data portion is now squeezed to 1492 instead of 1500.

Oh, that's OK I guess? Fraid not!



As we said earlier, layer 2 is the largest layer because everything else fits inside it. If you nick 8 bytes from here, you nick 8 bytes from every layer above it :(

Here's the real problem. Your PC doesn't know you have a DSL modem limiting you to 1492 byte MTU. When you initiate a connection somewhere, via TCP (layer 4) the very first part of that 'handshake' goes a little like this:

<YourPC> Yo, Webserver, I'd like some content, plz? By the way, I just checked my layer 2 MTU and it appears to be 1500. Thus, you should send chunks of data to me based on that.
<Webserver> Hi PC. Sure thing, bawss. I just checked my own layer 2 MTU and funnily enough, mine is set to 1500 too.
<YourPC> Tidy! We appear to be in agreement. I will start requesting stuff shortly!

Every layer has it's own MTU. It's the Data portion. TCP calls it's version of MTU the MSS; the maximum segment size. I believe this is layer 2 MTU minus the layer 3 header and then minus the layer 4 header. Make sense? Based on a standard layer 2 MTU of 1500, MSS is 1460. Your PC and the webserver just negotiated that connection based on their local MTU settings. They are both completely unaware that you are stunted by a 1492 MTU along the path, caused by PPPoE.

When your ISP router receives a frame with a packet that is too large to send back to you, it is forced to shave off the excess and dump it into a second frame. This is called fragmentation. This is a pain in the ass. ISPs do not like doing this. They like using their very fast and expensive router ASICs to deal with simple forwarding decisions. Fragmentation, especially when it's happening for tens of thousands of subcribers, is a big problem that causes a large increase in router resource. It's also an unnecessary problem, if your underlying network supports larger frame sizes and lo and behold, PPPoE now has support for negotiating larger frame size to go with it.

So, whilst I can see why some ISPs are extolling the virtues of PPP-Max-Payload I think we should bear in mind, that although there are benefits for the end user, as above, the real benefits are for the ISP with a well setup and monitored network.

What makes me uneasy about this whole thing is things like this:

http://www.sinet.bt.com/sinet/sins/pdf/472v2p6.pdf

3.5.1 PPPoE Aspects
If the WBC Customer intends their End User’s to use PPPoE, they must ensure that the End Users
are provided with a PPPoE client compliant to RFC2516[15] and RFC1661[9].

The amended RFC that includes the larger payload support is RFC 4638. This makes me question whether this is properly supported on any of the BT BRAS/LAC servers?

Personally, I would not be touching this with a barge pole but I'll keep an open mind if anyone has info to the contrary.

If anything, I would be reducing my LAN MTU to hopefully escape all these issues :)
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AArdvark

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Re: 1500 byte MTU on FTTC, possible.
« Reply #27 on: April 25, 2015, 11:22:49 AM »

Boost,
That post should be a 'Sticky' quick OSI 7 layer to mtu explanation. :)
Nicely done.

Question:
What is the real impact of reducing your mtu ?

Also many people use Jumbo frames, where does this fit in ?
(Add this to the post perhaps?)

TIA

Send from LG G3 via Tapatalk (Typos & bad formatting are free)

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loonylion

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Re: 1500 byte MTU on FTTC, possible.
« Reply #28 on: April 25, 2015, 12:41:13 PM »

Also many people use Jumbo frames, where does this fit in ?
(Add this to the post perhaps?)

TIA

Send from LG G3 via Tapatalk (Typos & bad formatting are free)

Jumbo frames allows the use of an MTU of 7000 or 9000 vs the usual 1500 when on a gigabit ethernet network. it increases throughput for large files, but all devices in use must support the same version of it (i.e if some devices support 9kB jumbo frames and some only support 7kB jumbo frames, they should all be set to 7kB), and if any devices on the network do not support it, then enabling it will reduce performance rather than increase it due to the fragmentation explained above.
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ejs

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Re: 1500 byte MTU on FTTC, possible.
« Reply #29 on: April 25, 2015, 01:06:23 PM »

BT SIN 495 says section 3 of SIN 472 is not applicable to FTTC.

BT SIN 498 gives the maximum supported Ethernet frame size as 1530 bytes (not counting the VLAN tags).

Your computer might have discovered the MTU is lower than 1500, and if not, for TCP, as I said, many routers will modify the outgoing TCP SYN packets sent to open a connection, and replace the MSS with the appropriate lower value. So although a packet with the MSS set to 1460 leaves your computer, the router changes the MSS in the packet to 1452, which the web server receives, and the web server replies acknowledging the MSS of 1452.

With an integrated VDSL2 modem+router, transporting 1500 byte IP packets should be fairly straightforward because the PPPoE layer is added within the router and then carried directly over the VDSL2 link (which operates in PTM mode).

With a separate VDSL2 modem and router, the PPPoE packets from the router have to go over the Ethernet link between the router and the modem. To fit into standard sized Ethernet frames, to allow for the PPPoE headers, that leaves 1492 bytes for the IP packets (IP header + TCP header + data). Or you need jumbo frames over this Ethernet link between the modem and router to enable it to carry slightly oversized Ethernet frames.

I don't really want to think about the PPPoEoA of using PPPoE over ADSL even though the ADSL layer will still be carrying ATM cells, it's not directly relevant to FTTC.
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