Kitz Forum
Broadband Related => FTTP Rollout => Topic started by: chenks on September 30, 2021, 12:10:09 PM
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Cityfibre are currently installing their network in my town, got the letter saying they are about to carry out construction, and already see them in surround streets.
1 question though, how do you know which ISPs can utilise it?
do you have to wait until construction is complete before ISPs offer services on their network?
can you choose anyone? or are you limited to who whoever decides to utilise their network?
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You are limited to whoever decides to use their network and can check who that is once its available for your address. https://www.cityfibre.com/residential/
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i have a horrible feeling it's going to end up being vodafone
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I spoke to Triangle Networks recently, they advised their residential arm FibreHop will be rolling out in Northamptonshire soon.
£36 for a gig up and down will do, with a £75 setup fee and 12 month contract plus WiFi 6 router.
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i have a horrible feeling it's going to end up being vodafone
They are one of them, but we know Zen use CityFibre also. Of course there is no guarantee every ISP that can use CityFibre, will at launch on a given exchange as I'd expect they might need to order more backhaul first.
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How long is it taking them to do your town chenks? they saying its 5 years to do my city from start to finish.
Regarding isps, I expect you wont be able to order until the work is considered complete by cityfibre, I also expect if an isp already has backhaul presence in the area for LLU services the likelihood increases for that isp been available.
You can use Zen's checker to see if they will be available, they should tell you either if its coming soon or not available.
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they are already digging up the streets.
no idea how long it takes from construction to "go live", and we've had letter thru the door advising it's being done.
samknows says the only LLU operators at the exchange are Sky, Vodafone and TalkTalk.
if those are going to be the only options then i'll be giving it a miss.
https://availability.samknows.com/broadband/exchange/WSJOH
the exchange is like 100 yards away from the house.
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Samknows availability checker is useless.
My exchange hasn't been updated in about 7 years. Most of the site is the same.
They concentrate on the speed testing and whiteboxes now.
You will also find that CityFibre ISP availability and local OpenReach LLU availability have little to nothing in common.
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You will also find that CityFibre ISP availability and local OpenReach LLU availability have little to nothing in common.
That's what I was thinking, I do not believe they would (can?) share backhaul with their Openreach circuits so it would entirely be on a case by case basis if the ISP thinks its a viable market to expand coverage in or not.
As for installation time, if one.network is anything to go by they seem to be moving MUCH slower than Openreach on my exchange. So far they just seem to be going over the areas they already supply FTTC for Vodafone. Those would naturally be easiest as they already have aggregation nodes, the areas they do not yet cover at all are going to be much slower than Openreach as they have to blow fibre where Openreach already have it.
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Well I was told otherwise by Zen themselves directly. Note they not present in all cityfibre areas.
Alex if they have their own backhaul, they can of course use it for any purpose they want. That's one advantage of it, you would build one separate network for each type of access technology?
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Well I was told otherwise by Zen themselves directly. Note they not present in all cityfibre areas.
Alex if they have their own backhaul, they can of course use it for any purpose they want. That's one advantage of it, you would build one separate network for each type of access technology?
I was thinking more that if you bought enough backhaul to service customers with an 80/20 profile, you're not going to be able to offer a 1000/1000 service down that same backhaul without upgrading it. Especially as Zen service relatively few exchanges with their backhaul, using TalkTalk instead most of the time.
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well that's them arrived in my street now to dig up and lay the fibre.
the exchange is on my street and about 150 yards up the road from me, so i guess they left this street until last as all the fibre already layed will end up at the exchange?
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what a strange dig/installation process.
so they dig a trench down the pavement, lay 2 purple pipes side-by-side in the trench.
then lay, what appears to be, fibre cable sitting on top of the pipes (not inside) and cover up everything with sand, and brush the dug out rubble back into the trench.
a "t point" is run to the property edge, where 1 of the, i assume, fibre cables it run up to.
i have to wonder what the 2 purple pipes are for as it doesn't appear to be for the fibre cables to run inside. any ideas?
(https://i.ibb.co/bQ428bC/IMG-0653.jpg) (https://ibb.co/KbtL3Kf)
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No idea :D - I guess they know what they are doing though? ::)
Here, CityFibre generally appear to be making a mess where they work around the town and often take longer compared to Lightning Fibre's various roadworks. :D
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i should add, the purple tubes don't continue down to the left, they are just running the thin purples wires in the trench as they are covered with sand and filled in with the rubble.
so if someone comes along later and digs into the pavement they'll, no doubt, sever the cable.
oh, and it has been noted that the crack in the pavement just below the loose piece of purple cable on the road only appeared when they dug up the pavement, so i will be paying close attention when they come to re-tarmac the trench to see if they also fix that. if not i'll be letting them know.
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i should add, the purple tubes don't continue down to the left, they are just running the thin purples wires in the trench as they are covered with sand and filled in with the rubble.
so if someone comes along later and digs into the pavement they'll, no doubt, sever the cable.
oh, and it has been noted that the crack in the pavement just below the loose piece of purple cable on the road only appeared when they dug up the pavement, so i will be paying close attention when they come to re-tarmac the trench to see if they also fix that. if not i'll be letting them know.
I have to say, that does look like an odd way to distribute fibre cable ??. As with most things, we're all 'Football managers' thinking we know better than the guys doing the graft, but if the trench has been reinstated it does leave the cables susceptible in the future ?.
From the picture, it looks like the cables are feeding to the individual TB's (Toby Boxes - those small rectangular things at the curtilage) - then they are all taped together and, I suspect, in readiness to be pulled down the two solid ducts they've laid.
Putting my football managers hat on, it looks decidedly shoddy.
I hope I'm proven wrong. :)
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No idea :D - I guess they know what they are doing though? ::)
Here, CityFibre generally appear to be making a mess where they work around the town and often take longer compared to Lightning Fibre's various roadworks. :D
Cityfibre are on a friend's street in Leicester, and they have apparently done nothing at all for nearly 3 weeks. Road dug up, but no work men.
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I have to say, that does look like an odd way to distribute fibre cable ??. As with most things, we're all 'Football managers' thinking we know better than the guys doing the graft, but if the trench has been reinstated it does leave the cables susceptible in the future ?.
From the picture, it looks like the cables are feeding to the individual TB's (Toby Boxes - those small rectangular things at the curtilage) - then they are all taped together and, I suspect, in readiness to be pulled down the two solid ducts they've laid.
Putting my football managers hat on, it looks decidedly shoddy.
I hope I'm proven wrong. :)
Nope the individual taped cables aren’t inside the big tubes, they were placed on top of them, covered in sand then it was filled in
I have no idea what the purpose of the tubes are. I watched them lay them then lay the taped cable on top
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Are the tubes there for additional later fibres? Or are they to protect the fibre from being crushed, because of their greater width making the top of them higher so they will take any weight first?
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Its just bizarre as surely first time that pavement gets resurfaced they risk destroying the cables.
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It sounds as if the installers were supposed to feed the fibre cables through the purple tubes but didn't bother, to save time.
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Are the tubes there for additional later fibres? Or are they to protect the fibre from being crushed, because of their greater width making the top of them higher so they will take any weight first?
no idea,
but the tubes don't continue around the corner from what you see in the photo.
as the trench goes down to the left they just layed the taped cables in the trench on their own and covered with sand.
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I'd suggest contacting Cityfibre with the photo and description. If as people suggest it's lazy workers they should want the job done properly.
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From a letter sent to Bournemouth Echo (https://www.bournemouthecho.co.uk/news/19657773.nightmare-broadband-works-early-hours-a-disgrace). City Fibre are not very good in organisation.
[Moderator edited to fix the broken [url=][/url] tags.]
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well the cables that are running down around to the left (in the original photo) go to a BT manhole on the pavement. the fibre cables are running to it unprotected covered by sand, rubble and tarmac (probably about 6 inches below the pavement surface).
the main run along the house, the fibre is sitting on top of the 2 purple tubes, which is then covered by sand, rubble and tarmac.
they've made it impossible to pull new cables should something go wrong. they'd need to dig and relay.
PMK are the contractors working for CityFibre.
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It does look insane. Agreed.
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That's exactly how Virgin rollout their FTTP, minus the larger ducts.
No idea what they are for.
The thinner purple cables are tough, designed to be direct buried in the pavement.
Fibre is blown through them later on.
Did they fit a bend on the larger duct and continue it on to the left of the photo?
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Did they fit a bend on the larger duct and continue it on to the left of the photo?
no, they just run the thin purple wires to the BT manhole on their own in the trench they dug and covered up with sand and filled it back in (as you can see in the photo).
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So, j0hn, the purple things are in fact pipes, not fibres? Makes some sense now then.
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So, j0hn, the purple things are in fact pipes, not fibres? Makes some sense now then.
the 2 large purple things are plastic pipes, i think he's referring to the thinner roll of purple wire.
the 2 large pipes appear to do nothing other than for them to place the thin roll or purple wire on top of (but not inside).
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the 2 large purple things are plastic pipes, i think he's referring to the thinner roll of purple wire.
the 2 large pipes appear to do nothing other than for them to place the thin roll or purple wire on top of (but not inside).
Aha ..... as Weaver points out, it's making more sense now I think.
Chenks - you posted the wording, "what appears to be, fibre cable sitting on top of the pipes (not inside)" .... which is what has thrown us, I would humbly suggest. If it BFT (Blown Fibre Tubing) then as j0hn mentions, it's totally acceptable.
Nobody was harmed in the making of this, another investigation put to bed. ;D
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if it is BFT then what's the purpose of the 2 large purple tubes?
and if they are required why weren't they used 100% of the time? they weren't used for the run that turned round the corner which terminated at the BT manhole.
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B2B's (Box to box ducts) for the larger spine cables ?? Have they built any access boxes at the end of the 2 larger ducts ??
With their being TB's outside each premises, there would have to be 'Swept T's' (ie: breakout ducts) on the larger purple pipes, at each premises passed.
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With more reports that cityfibre work in Leicester has stopped I ran the checker again, and it no longer says its planned. O_o
I also tried a few other random addresses in the city and the same result.
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With more reports that cityfibre work in Leicester has stopped I ran the checker again, and it no longer says its planned. O_o
I also tried a few other random addresses in the city and the same result.
That's weird, seeing as I'm sure it said somewhere on their website that once they start in a city, they do the WHOLE city.
That said I know they are doing my exchange area, but I'm not planned either.
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I got a email reply from Cityfibre, not much information, I will speculate that they havent abandoned anything but rather they have decided to limit public information about the rollout progress.
Remember I moaned about Zen saying its coming soon, so maybe they decided to not put areas down as been planned until they much closer to work been done?
The reply basically said they are currently still in the planning/build process regarding Leicester, and they are unable to give any timelines. I didnt ask about timelines, my question I asked them if they still planned to do the original announced work, so sadly didnt really answer my question directly, but indirectly it suggests they are still doing it.
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Guys I have some hopefully good news regarding FTTP for me.
Someone on TBB gave me this link which is a checker that uses cityfibre's API combined with one network API. It also has other FTTP providers on there as well including openreach so isnt cityfibre exclusive.
https://bidb.msh100.uk
In addition cityfibre have changed the wording on their checker which misled me, if an area is planned it will say just check with us for updates without actually saying its planned. However if an area isnt planned its similar wording but they add that there is no plans.
Now the good news.
This website shows planned roadworks in the side streets surrounding me, its not right on the parts of the streets near me but they very close 2 to 3 streets away, I am hoping this time it will move towards me.
I checked one network directly and the yellow roadworks for cityfibre are on there now as well, so fingers crossed it will be very soon, my thoughts over ordering VM have now been put on hold.
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I like it, unlike one.network it tries to show you which sections of road are affected too.
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based on the recent news from Vodafone i suspect that it's going to be Vodafone being the ISP servicing the FTTP rollout here.
which means i'll be giving it a miss sadly.
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B2B's (Box to box ducts) for the larger spine cables ?? Have they built any access boxes at the end of the 2 larger ducts ??
no they didn't
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based on the recent news from Vodafone i suspect that it's going to be Vodafone being the ISP servicing the FTTP rollout here.
which means i'll be giving it a miss sadly.
Well I did PM the Zen rep and he told me they still selling it although he didnt comment specifically why its not on their website. It might be a technical issue as they added extra CF tiers.
Hopefully Vodafone's new deal isnt exclusivity anywhere, I expect its preferential pricing instead.
I also read something on TBB that someone is claiming each area has its own ISP for a year exclusivity, there is a new ISP selling cityfibre and they are doing my city as well as Zen, so that theory seems not to be the case either. I forgot their name but they used to be a business only ISP and started a consumer FTTP brand recently.
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Which ISPs resell cityfibre that use IPoE instead of PPPoE?
Seen it mentioned on ispreview, but no ISPs were actually listed.
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well it looks like Zen has thrown their hat in the ring for nationwide coverage as well now
https://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.php/2021/11/zen-internet-set-to-extend-cityfibre-fttp-availability-nationwide.html
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Which ISPs resell cityfibre that use IPoE instead of PPPoE?
Seen it mentioned on ispreview, but no ISPs were actually listed.
TalkTalk Residential, not sure of any others.
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My city has continued its trend to not announce road works on my street.
City fibre did deployment work for 3 nights last week during dusk hours outside my property, none of which was on the one network site.
Only question is how long before they press the button, as is a lot of reports of people waiting over 6 months, or even over a year now after works are carried out.
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well it looks like Zen has thrown their hat in the ring for nationwide coverage as well now
https://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.php/2021/11/zen-internet-set-to-extend-cityfibre-fttp-availability-nationwide.html
Was expected, I was counting on it in fact. The plan for me is tol get Openreach FTTP as its likely to come first and switch to CityFibre for symmetrical once its available.
Only question is how long before they press the button, as is a lot of reports of people waiting over 6 months, or even over a year now after works are carried out.
Likely the silicon shortage as mentioned in another thread by Black Sheep. Lay the fibre now, light it once the supporting hardware is available.
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it's still not live for me, the digging was done in september.
ironically the BT exchange is 100 yards up the street from me.
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well the network now appears to be live
city fibre give me 3 suppliers
Vodfaone
Zen
Braw Band
none of those 3 appear to be offering symmetrical speeds sadly (or if they do they don't advertise the fact).
zen advertise 900/100, brawband don't mention an upload speed at all during the "check what services you can get" process, and vodafone i wouldn't touch with a barge pole (but only appear to offer 80Mbps package)
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Are fibrehop available for you?
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City fibre only lists those 3 as being available
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Zen over Cityfibre is symmetrical - here's why it can't be advertised as such:
https://forums.thinkbroadband.com/zen/t/4703085-zen-over-cityfibre.html
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Zen only do symmetrical over CityFibre.
Zen are signed up to the OFCOM speed code of practice and do not yet have sufficient proof of the higher upload speeds on CityFibre to be able to advertise them so must continue to advertise them as the same speeds as over Openreach.
ajays (Senior Product Manager - Broadband) is a Zen staff member registered on ThinkBroadband and confirmed this just over a month ago.
Hi John, thanks for reaching out.
This is all linked to our obligations as a signatory of Ofcom's speeds code of practice.
Ofcom require Zen to advertise speeds based on the results of speeds tests run under a set of defined principles.
Along with TalkTalk, Zen are the only signatories using City Fibre's network.
Before we're allowed to advertise the increased upload speeds we need to connect and measure the speeds from a panel of test customers. The panel needs to be sufficiently large that it is statistically representative for each of the different speed packages we offer and so that it takes into account any differences between cities.
Our CPE doesn't have an Ofcom approved speed testing service built in, so we use SamKnows white boxes to gather the evidence we need to provide to Ofcom.
In the meantime the speed test data we have is based on Openreach FTTP. Hence the speeds you see on our website and that our sales teams are obliged to provide.
So, in summary, customer's upload speeds are not capped at the Openreach profile rates. But until we have the appropriate evidence to back clams of higher upload speeds, we are continuing to advertise a single set of profiles across both networks. Better to under promise and over deliver than the other way around.
I hope that all makes sense. And believe me it's quite frustrating that we can not shout about the higher upload speeds in the way we'd like to.
Best regards,
Andrew
Edit: jelv beat me to it
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Yeah they are same speed both directions, but I personally wouldnt order without written confirmation thats the package, otherwise there is no leverage in case of upload speed problems.
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Definitely an awkward scenario as Zen are doing the right thing by not over-promising but the rules they are following are flawed.
This is an inherent problem with the networks offering symmetrical though as if they are only using GPON the average upload speed is going vary wildly depending on if more than one heavy user is on that PON, seeing as it only takes two to max out the upstream (though probably unlikely for very long so the average should still be high).
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yeah i probably wouldn't consider Zen until they sorted out their ability to advertise it.
however, there is 1 big obstacle, in that the cityfibre crew decided to place the "t-point" on the pavement in a place totally inappropriate for where the entry to the house actually would be.
the t-point is at the "front" of the house (as in the side of the house that faces the pavement), but that is actually the back of the house (kitchen and downstairs bathroom faces the pavement).
and the fact they would almost certainly have to dig a trench to get the fibre from the pavement into the property and then have to route it externally to the point where it would actually enter.
the disruption probably outweighs considering the service.
the virgin location, by comparison, is actually nearer where it would actually enter the property.
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well the network now appears to be live
city fibre give me 3 suppliers
Vodfaone
Zen
Braw Band
none of those 3 appear to be offering symmetrical speeds sadly (or if they do they don't advertise the fact).
I am surprised TalkTalk is not showing as available as they seem to be the first ones in for new builds in the North East. I am getting symmetrical with them. Although I signed up for 500 down and 75 up. I was expecting them to change it but been with them for 3 months and its remained the same
TalkTalk also offer their FTTP over DHCP (as opposed to PPPOE most others use). Therefore you can use PFsense with a low powered quad core and get full speed from it.
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it's still not live for me, the digging was done in september.
ironically the BT exchange is 100 yards up the street from me.
If it means anything to gauge from. They dug up my street the last week of May. It literally went live Christmas Eve which I ordered straight away that same day. And TalkTalk installed it on the 7th January.
When I was on the phone with them in this meantime checking as Zen had multiple live dates that all came and went they were saying its about a 6 months lead time from digging up the street to going live, and for me it was 7 months.
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yeah i probably wouldn't consider Zen until they sorted out their ability to advertise it.
well it seems even after a year Zen still can't advertise the product as fully symmetrical when using the cityfibre network.
however, are Zen still considered to be one of the better "smaller" ISPs?
they are currently offering "full fibre 900" for £40pm but can still only advertise it as
Estimated Download
900Mbpsestimated download
Estimated Upload
100Mbpsestimated upload
Minimum Guaranteed Download
450Mbpsminimum guaranteed download
looking at trustpilot (which definitely should be taken with a pinch of salt), they mostly get good reviews, but the odd 1 and 2 star review suggests that when things go fine there isn't a problem but on the off occasion there is a problem it can sometimes go quite badly
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however, are Zen still considered to be one of the better "smaller" ISPs?
looking at trustpilot (which definitely should be taken with a pinch of salt), they mostly get good reviews, but the odd 1 and 2 star review suggests that when things go fine there isn't a problem but on the off occasion there is a problem it can sometimes go quite badly
Have a look at their ISPReview ratings, which I would argue come from a more discerning part of the market than Trustpilot. It was enough to put me off, although I am with IDNet on FTTP over a ZenW connection, so didn't manage to avoid them entirely. Having said that my FTTP 80/20 is absolutely rock solid.
Also check put there reviews on the main site here, although that is just score based.
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Have a look at their ISPReview ratings, which I would argue come from a more discerning part of the market than Trustpilot. It was enough to put me off, although I am with IDNet on FTTP over a ZenW connection, so didn't manage to avoid them entirely. Having said that my FTTP 80/20 is absolutely rock solid.
Also check put there reviews on the main site here, although that is just score based.
looking at ispreview it looks like their once good customer service has taken a nose dive and is now quite poor.
IDnet are not an option on the cityfibre network for me
Vodafone
TalkTalk
Giganet
Zen
Brawband
Brillband
the first 2 i wouldn't touch with a barge pole.
i know nothing about giganet.
and brawband and brillband seem to be those ISPs that pop up with zero history and most likely just re-selling someone elses product.
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looking at ispreview it looks like their once good customer service has taken a nose dive and is now quite poor.
IDnet are not an option on the cityfibre network for me
Vodafone
TalkTalk
Giganet
Zen
Brawband
Brillband
the first 2 i wouldn't touch with a barge pole.
i know nothing about giganet.
and brawband and brillband seem to be those ISPs that pop up with zero history and most likely just re-selling someone elses product.
If Giganet can't deliver over their own network or CityFibre they use ZenW over Open Reach. Seem to be a reasonably well regarded ISP as far as I can tell. I didn't go with them because I didn't want to get tied into a long contract over ZenW. I am paying IDNet £4 more for an 80/20 connection than Giganet would provide a 150/30 connection. I am not tied into IDNet though, which I felt justified the additional cost.
However none of that is pertinent if you have CityFibre available to you. There is a 3 month free offer to tempt you as well.
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However none of that is pertinent if you have CityFibre available to you. There is a 3 month free offer to tempt you as well.
as the thread is about Cityfibre, then obviously it is available to me.
cityfibre laid their fibre, and the ISPs i listed above are the ones that show as being available to me via cityfibre.
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none of those 3 appear to be offering symmetrical speeds sadly (or if they do they don't advertise the fact).
Zen cannot advertise symmetrical due to following OFCOM advertising rules, but it IS symmetrical.
I believe all Cityfibre packages are always symmetrical regardless of ISP.
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as the thread is about Cityfibre, then obviously it is available to me.
cityfibre laid their fibre, and the ISPs i listed above are the ones that show as being available to me via cityfibre.
Apologies. Just jumped on the thread when I only had a few moments to spare and was trying to help, but hadn't read the thread properly. My bad!
Still reckon Giganet may be the pick of the lot, but know nothing about Brawband or Brillband.
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well the network now appears to be live
city fibre give me 3 suppliers
Vodfaone
Zen
Braw Band
none of those 3 appear to be offering symmetrical speeds sadly (or if they do they don't advertise the fact).
zen advertise 900/100, brawband don't mention an upload speed at all during the "check what services you can get" process, and vodafone i wouldn't touch with a barge pole (but only appear to offer 80Mbps package)
I can confirm that BrawBand uses only the City Fibre network and therefore offers symmetrical speeds on all packages. Probably need to get the website updated so there is no doubt though!
In terms of our history, we are a part of HighNet who have been around for 29 years running their own network since 2012 :)
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I can confirm that BrawBand uses only the City Fibre network and therefore offers symmetrical speeds on all packages. Probably need to get the website updated so there is no doubt though!
In terms of our history, we are a part of HighNet who have been around for 29 years running their own network since 2012 :)
are you responding on behalf of Brawband in an official capacity?