Kitz Forum
Broadband Related => ADSL Issues => Topic started by: notaclue on July 19, 2014, 03:32:26 PM
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As a follow up to this post here: http://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php?topic=14183.msg266556#msg266556 (http://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php?topic=14183.msg266556#msg266556)
I've recently re-synced with the exchange at a much lower speed than normal. I used to get 18/2.
Here are my current stats.
Stats recorded 19 Jul 2014 15:28:05
DSLAM/MSAN type: Not reported by modem
Modem/router firmware: AnnexA version - A2pD030g.d22j
DSL mode: ADSL2+
Status: Showtime
Uptime: 7 min 11 sec
Resyncs: 0 (since 19 Jul 2014 13:42:24)
Downstream Upstream
Line attenuation (dB): 28.0 32.8
Signal attenuation (dB): 28.0 33.4
Connection speed (kbps): 5392 339
SNR margin (dB): 12.4 8.2
Power (dBm): 0.0 12.8
Interleave depth: 32 1
INP: 1.05 0.60
RSCorr/RS (%): 0.1194 0.0307
RSUnCorr/RS (%): 0.0049 0.0000
ES/hour: 0 0.47
I would like to note a couple of strange things. It's not reporting the dslam/msan current where it has before. I believe it started with an I.
Also my attenuation seems to change (Which from what I read is impossible?) Here is the log from today
Down Up
19 Jul 2014 13:42:30 28.0 35.6
19 Jul 2014 13:45:05 28.0 35.9
19 Jul 2014 13:49:05 28.0 35.0
19 Jul 2014 14:06:05 28.0 35.2
19 Jul 2014 14:14:06 10.5 4.9
19 Jul 2014 14:34:05 10.5 5.0
19 Jul 2014 14:37:05 28.0 34.8
19 Jul 2014 15:21:05 28.0 32.8
If anyone wants any specific graph or any other information I will gladly oblige.
It just re-synced after I posted this message. Here's the connection information with a lower attenuation
Stats recorded 19 Jul 2014 15:40:05
DSLAM/MSAN type: Not reported by modem
Modem/router firmware: AnnexA version - A2pD030g.d22j
DSL mode: ADSL2+
Status: Showtime
Uptime: 3 min 47 sec
Resyncs: 0 (since 19 Jul 2014 13:42:24)
Downstream Upstream
Line attenuation (dB): 10.5 4.9
Signal attenuation (dB): 10.5 4.8
Connection speed (kbps): 15975 1268
SNR margin (dB): 12.0 6.5
Power (dBm): 0.0 11.9
Interleave depth: 192 1
INP: 1.06 0
RSCorr/RS (%): 0.0000 N/A
RSUnCorr/RS (%): 0.0000 N/A
ES/hour: 0 0.60
My QLN is exactly the same as in the previous topic though...
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So high attenuation changes indicate serious line fault. Could you attach your Hlog and SNR margin graphs?
Best regards
konrado5
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Sure here is a couple. Ones from last night the other right now.
Here are your SNR graphs too.
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I hope you don't mind, but I've replaced your quote tags with code tags, which preserve the formatting better.
It certainly looks like a line fault. I note that you previously had 2 Mbps upstream speed. Do you have an annex M connection?
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I hope you don't mind, but I've replaced your quote tags with code tags, which preserve the formatting better.
It certainly looks like a line fault. I note that you previously had 2 Mbps upstream speed. Do you have an annex M connection?
I was unsure myself to use code or quote tags, I will keep that in mind when I post future statistics!
I can enable annex M from my router and it has been enabled/disabled.(Seems to make 0 difference to my attenuation or stability.) I'm honestly not that bothered about the speed I would like to return to my fast path profile, but as I understand it that wont happen until I get a stable connection which it seems to be able to do for the past few weeks. (Sorry if what I've typed is incoherent.)
As for a line fault, I should be able to hear this on a quiet line test? I have done several over the past few weeks and it can either be quiet or I get the odd crackle or pop. (One time I heard extremely faint voices and immediately reported it to BT, who said there was nothing wrong.)
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It's not reporting the dslam/msan current where it has before. I believe it started with an I.
Was it possibly Infineon? :-\
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It's not reporting the dslam/msan current where it has before. I believe it started with an I.
Was it possibly Infineon? :-\
IFNS or something which I believe is Infineon. It was curious to me as last night it reported it as now it won't. :S
I've just re-synced again at a lower speed (I've also done a QLT and this time there is a constant crackle that wont abate.)
Here's the full telnet stats rather than just the stats page.
adsl info --stats
adsl: ADSL driver and PHY status
Status: Showtime
Retrain Reason: 8000
Max: Upstream rate = 652 Kbps, Downstream rate = 2948 Kbps
Path: 0, Upstream rate = 322 Kbps, Downstream rate = 2867 Kbps
Link Power State: L0
Mode: ADSL2+
TPS-TC: ATM Mode
Trellis: U:ON /D:ON
Line Status: No Defect
Training Status: Showtime
Down Up
SNR (dB): 11.5 12.9
Attn(dB): 22.0 7.3
Pwr(dBm): 0.0 13.0
ADSL2 framing
MSGc: 60 11
B: 87 14
M: 2 16
T: 1 3
R: 16 10
S: 1.9418 23.2558
L: 791 86
D: 16 1
Counters
SF: 19533 16890
SFErr: 0 15
RS: 644532 53836
RSCorr: 467 16
RSUnCorr: 0 0
HEC: 5 8
OCD: 0 0
LCD: 0 0
Total Cells: 2116217 235322
Data Cells: 4036 2762
Drop Cells: 0
Bit Errors: 0 848
ES: 359 250
SES: 191 5
UAS: 633 633
AS: 313
INP: 1.29 0.46
PER: 16.02 18.53
delay: 7.76 5.81
OR: 32.95 7.33
Bitswap: 0 0
Total time = 2 hours 43 min 12 sec
FEC: 134924 4739
CRC: 8569 680
ES: 359 250
SES: 191 5
UAS: 633 633
LOS: 18 0
LOF: 160 0
Latest 15 minutes time = 13 min 12 sec
FEC: 5598 461
CRC: 1200 42
ES: 58 18
SES: 43 0
UAS: 162 162
LOS: 4 0
LOF: 36 0
Previous 15 minutes time = 15 min 0 sec
FEC: 10787 1728
CRC: 2446 157
ES: 72 33
SES: 52 2
UAS: 148 148
LOS: 5 0
LOF: 44 0
Latest 1 day time = 2 hours 43 min 12 sec
FEC: 134924 4739
CRC: 8569 680
ES: 359 250
SES: 191 5
UAS: 633 633
LOS: 18 0
LOF: 160 0
Previous 1 day time = 0 sec
FEC: 0 0
CRC: 0 0
ES: 0 0
SES: 0 0
UAS: 0 0
LOS: 0 0
LOF: 0 0
Since Link time = 5 min 13 sec
FEC: 467 16
CRC: 0 15
ES: 0 6
SES: 0 0
UAS: 0 0
LOS: 0 0
LOF: 0 0
>
I very much appreciate the help I have received.
As a side note, could this possibly be the symptoms of my router giving up the ghost? I've ordered a new one just to be sure. (It is DSLstats compatible I believe.)
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Does the QLT without the modem attached to the line sound any different?
What are the chances your pair is flapping in the wind between your house and the PCP? :D
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Does the QLT without the modem attached to the line sound any different?
What are the chances your pair is flapping in the wind between your house and the PCP? :D
The QLT is done with a corded phone straight into the test socket, nothing else connected.
(PCP = Telephone pole?) I expect that to happen, but a sudden large degradation of quality I do not :(
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The green box thing (Primary Connection Point?) or whatever the immediate ish termination points are from your house to the cab.
I saw a line gain (improve) by 9dB DS attenuation the other day when OR merely re-affirmed the connection at the cab. He said he did nothing at first until I mentioned the huge line improvement...
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Do all lines no matter the distance from the exchange to go a PCP?
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(I've also done a QLT and this time there is a constant crackle that wont abate.)
If that's done without any other equipment connected, then it's almost certainly an intermittent line fault. To be certain you ought to remove the NTE5 faceplate and plug the telephone into the test socket. This would remove the possibility of any internal wiring affecting the result. The next thing will be to report the problem to your ISP, but make sure that you collect plenty of data first.
Do all lines no matter the distance from the exchange to go a PCP?
Most do, but a smallish proportion are connected directly to the exchange.
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(I've also done a QLT and this time there is a constant crackle that wont abate.)
If that's done without any other equipment connected, then it's almost certainly an intermittent line fault. To be certain you ought to remove the NTE5 faceplate and plug the telephone into the test socket. This would remove the possibility of any internal wiring affecting the result. The next thing will be to report the problem to your ISP, but make sure that you collect plenty of data first.
Do all lines no matter the distance from the exchange to go a PCP?
Most do, but a smallish proportion are connected directly to the exchange.
All the equipment is plugged into the test socket. (The faceplate has never been installed. and all QLT tests are done with the corded phone plugged into the test socket without any filters)
What data should I collect? Should I perhaps post on the BT community forums?
I think my line goes directly to the exchange is there anyway I can dis/prove this?
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I'm curious what type of fault causes such Hlog, SNR margin fluctuations, attenuation fluctuations.
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I think my line goes directly to the exchange is there anyway I can dis/prove this?
If you select the 'Address checker' option here: https://www.btwholesale.com/includes/adsl/main.html , one of the pices of information it provides is which cabinet you're connected to (or not).
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I'm curious what type of fault causes such Hlog, SNR margin fluctuations, attenuation fluctuations.
An intermittent HR (high resistance) line fault most probably.
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I'm curious what type of fault causes such Hlog, SNR margin fluctuations, attenuation fluctuations.
An intermittent HR (high resistance) line fault most probably.
From the evidence presented, it certainly seems to indicate a defective joint.
As for the "missing" DSLAM/MSAN information, that is a puzzle. However from what notaclue recalls, I'm sure it is a Infineon chipset.
Checking the service received in The Cattery, I see --
# xdslcmd info --vendor
xdslcmd: ADSL driver and PHY status
Status: Showtime
Retrain Reason: 8000
Max: Upstream rate = 1044 Kbps, Downstream rate = 6424 Kbps
Channel: INTR, Upstream rate = 1016 Kbps, Downstream rate = 5583 Kbps
ChipSet Vendor Id: IFTN:0x71c6
ChipSet VersionNumber: 0x71c6
ChipSet SerialNumber:
#
IFTN is the abbreviation for Infineon.
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From the evidence presented, it certainly seems to indicate a defective joint.
What way does defective joint cause notaclue Hlog undulations? It seems he has intermittent signal reflections. You have said earlier that HR faults are not noticable at Hlog.
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Would anyone like anymore information? Is there supposed to be 0 power on the downstream?
(I also used the address checker and it had no mention of a cabinet, thanks for that!)
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I agree with Eric and b*cat, looks like a physical line fault. HR possibly caused by an oxydised/corroded joint.
Corroded joints can cause capacitive faults which particulary affect the lower frequencies - hence why it normally affects the upstream tones the most. All the symptoms are there. You may also find the line loses sync when the phone rings or is in use.
In its current state the line is not able to support Annex_M. Upstream Power showing as 0 is a known bug for certain routers but Ive not seen it occur on the downstream. Its most likely to be a reporting issue because there must be power there.
Ive no idea why its not showing the chipset types when it did previously. The only possible thing I can think of is that when in Annex_M mode the DSLAM responds differently? :hmm:
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From the evidence presented, it certainly seems to indicate a defective joint.
What way does defective joint cause notaclue Hlog undulations? It seems he has intermittent signal reflections. You have said earlier that HR faults are not noticable at Hlog.
HLOG = Copper issues
QLN = RFI/Interference
HLOG doesn't care about RFI and the QLN doesn't care how many tie pairs were accidentally tagged onto yours from the PCP, etc.
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I agree with Eric and b*cat, looks like a physical line fault. HR possibly caused by an oxydised/corroded joint.
Corroded joints can cause capacitive faults which particulary affect the lower frequencies - hence why it normally affects the upstream tones the most. All the symptoms are there. You may also find the line loses sync when the phone rings or is in use.
In its current state the line is not able to support Annex_M. Upstream Power showing as 0 is a known bug for certain routers but Ive not seen it occur on the downstream. Its most likely to be a reporting issue because there must be power there.
Ive no idea why its not showing the chipset types when it did previously. The only possible thing I can think of is that when in Annex_M mode the DSLAM responds differently? :hmm:
A few things, the phone line works (with noise) and doesn't interrupt the broadband, at least I haven't noticed a correlation with how little it is used.
I have turned on Annex_M from within my router and the stats are roughly the same, with it fluctuating between the same sorts of figures as posted earlier. From what DSLstats says it's a not reported by the router rather than the dslam, so it leads me to believe my router could very well be the culprit?
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at least I haven't noticed a correlation with how little it is used.
Easily tested on a BT circuit. Dial 17070 and select Ringback. When you replace the receiver your phone should ring.
Observe the behaviour on DSLstats - it may be an idea to temporary increase the graph sample time to say 15secs to ensure that dslstats collects some stats during this period. Looking to see if the SNRmargin takes a hit.
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I have just followed the advice as given (I think have set my snapshot up right.)
The line test was performed at 21:21
I have also attached the SNR Margin for the past few hours also if that's any help?
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Corroded joints can cause capacitive faults which particulary affect the lower frequencies - hence why it normally affects the upstream tones the most.
But notaclue has significantly higher SNR margin fluctuations on downstream (red graph).
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hmmm so your SNRm did take a hit... but surprisingly I didnt see too much effect on the upstream as I would have expected.
Do you happen to recall what happened at circa 20:55. To me that looks like one of the symptoms I saw on my own line when I had this corroded terminal. ie the upstream SNR would improve after opening the line.
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Im always loathe to point fingers at one particular item when it comes to hlog and QLN because you have to look at a much wider picture and consider all factors.. but it looks like from your hlog that tones over the region of 40 to 80 are being affected the most... which is still the low end of the spectrum.
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Whatever the cause there is a problem and I think its time to call BT. The fact that your speed has dropped so much on an Annex_M connection & noise on the line should be enough to get an engineer called out. If you can repeat that test and your SNRm takes a hit each time you do a ring back.. this is very worthwhile mentioning to the engineer, as he should be able to replicate this easily and see the results himself on his JDSU (if he has one). If not you can always show him your live dslstats graph.
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Corroded joints can cause capacitive faults which particulary affect the lower frequencies - hence why it normally affects the upstream tones the most.
But notaclue has significantly higher SNR margin fluctuations on downstream (red graph).
Ermm will you give me time to respond please. I just covered that in my post above which I was making at the same time as you. I dont fire off replies as quick as you do. :-\
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Corroded joints can cause capacitive faults which particulary affect the lower frequencies - hence why it normally affects the upstream tones the most.
But notaclue has significantly higher SNR margin fluctuations on downstream (red graph).
I will grant you that fact. But please remember, it is not a "hard and fast" science -- it is more of a "black art". If we take another look at the recent SNRM graphs that notaclue has posted, both DS and US have "taken a big hit" when the ringing voltage was applied to the circuit. And that is fairly conclusive evidence of either a HR or semi-conducting joint. When it is considered with the audible noise that is also apparent when the telephone is used, a defective joint is almost a certainty.
[If that was my circuit I would connect a TDR (time domain reflectometer) to the pair and display the trace (either to the primary cross connection point or to the exchange). From a mobile phone I would then instigate a call to the circuit. With luck, the position of the defective joint would become obvious -- as the one region of the trace that fluctuates in synchronism with the cadences of the applied ringing voltage.]
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As to Annex M . . . doesn't it need to be configured at the DSLAM/MSAN? In other words, if the CO end of the xDSL circuit has not been configured for that mode, toggling the mode on and off at the CPE end is nothing more than a no-op? :-\
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And that is fairly conclusive evidence of either a HR or semi-conducting joint.
What about Hlog? notaclue fault is visible on Hlog. But you have said HR faults are not noticable on Hlog. Defected joint cause temporary signal reflections?
Best regards
konrado5
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The SNR appears to take a hit (but only on the download this) on a test commenced at 22:00. (I do not know what the happened in between the 2 dial back tests as there appears to be a drop between them)
The connection has been dropping much more frequently than this graph would suggest and as evidenced by the Attenuation Log?
Down Up
19 Jul 2014 13:42:30 28.0 35.6
19 Jul 2014 13:45:05 28.0 35.9
19 Jul 2014 13:49:05 28.0 35.0
19 Jul 2014 14:06:05 28.0 35.2
19 Jul 2014 14:14:06 10.5 4.9
19 Jul 2014 14:34:05 10.5 5.0
19 Jul 2014 14:37:05 28.0 34.8
19 Jul 2014 15:21:05 28.0 32.8
19 Jul 2014 15:37:05 10.5 4.9
19 Jul 2014 16:05:05 28.0 34.8
19 Jul 2014 16:06:06 28.5 34.7
19 Jul 2014 16:09:05 28.0 34.7
19 Jul 2014 16:25:05 28.0 34.1
19 Jul 2014 16:28:05 28.0 34.2
19 Jul 2014 16:37:30 28.0 33.8
19 Jul 2014 16:43:29 28.0 33.3
19 Jul 2014 16:46:29 28.0 34.2
19 Jul 2014 16:51:30 22.0 7.3
19 Jul 2014 17:01:10 26.5 27.0
19 Jul 2014 17:10:09 26.0 25.8
19 Jul 2014 17:12:10 10.5 4.9
19 Jul 2014 17:58:09 26.5 26.7
19 Jul 2014 18:15:17 10.5 5.0
19 Jul 2014 18:17:10 27.0 30.0
19 Jul 2014 18:22:10 27.5 30.6
19 Jul 2014 18:29:10 10.5 4.9
19 Jul 2014 18:37:09 10.5 5.0
19 Jul 2014 18:46:09 10.5 5.1
19 Jul 2014 18:52:09 10.5 4.9
19 Jul 2014 19:16:09 10.5 5.0
19 Jul 2014 19:18:10 10.5 5.1
19 Jul 2014 19:33:10 11.0 5.2
19 Jul 2014 19:46:09 27.0 28.9
19 Jul 2014 19:55:09 27.0 29.9
19 Jul 2014 20:42:09 10.5 4.9
19 Jul 2014 20:47:10 27.0 30.2
19 Jul 2014 20:49:10 11.0 5.3
19 Jul 2014 20:56:09 27.0 30.9
19 Jul 2014 21:15:09 27.5 31.8
19 Jul 2014 21:22:39 10.0 4.7
19 Jul 2014 21:29:09 10.5 4.9
19 Jul 2014 21:43:09 10.5 5.0
19 Jul 2014 21:44:54 27.5 31.2
19 Jul 2014 21:47:10 27.5 31.3
19 Jul 2014 21:49:40 27.5 31.4
19 Jul 2014 22:01:24 10.5 5.0
The connection speed is related to the attenuation, the lower the faster? (Which I have included as reference.)
I have also included a HLog for konardo5.
With regards to the DSLAM and Annex_M, wouldn't it eventually be handed out if the connection was stable enough? (I am led to believe this happens with fast path and interleaving?)
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I will grant you that fact. But please remember, it is not a "hard and fast" science -- it is more of a "black art". If we take another look at the recent SNRM graphs that notaclue has posted, both DS and US have "taken a big hit" when the ringing voltage was applied to the circuit.
Thank you b*cat. Exactly!
Perhaps I should have expanded more for those that didnt realise - when I said tones 40-80, this range encompasses and spans both upstream and downstream frequencies.
As to Annex M . . . doesn't it need to be configured at the DSLAM/MSAN?
Yes its set as an available profile on the MSAN.. which can then be selected via the CPE. When I was on annex_M, I could toggle it on/off via my router.
Selecting annex_m means you get different psd masks etc.
Most routers will auto-select it - presumably because the order of priority will be set on the MSAN.
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And that is fairly conclusive evidence of either a HR or semi-conducting joint.
What about Hlog? notaclue fault is visible on Hlog. But you have said HR faults are not noticable on Hlog. Defected joint cause temporary signal reflections?
Best regards
konrado5
Good god Konrado give it a rest will you please. Ive been trying to ignore you, but you arent adding anything other than nitpicking mine and b*cats posts. Get this - there is no hard and fast rules with adsl. You have to look at the wider picture and not just focus on individual items. Quite often dsl diagnostic's is having a feel for things and a gut instinct that only comes by years of reading line stats. B*cat knows his stuff and is pretty damn proficient at line diagnostics.
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And that is fairly conclusive evidence of either a HR or semi-conducting joint.
What about Hlog? notaclue fault is visible on Hlog. But you have said HR faults are not noticable on Hlog. Defected joint cause temporary signal reflections?
It is true that the two partial HLog plots do not "look right". It is also true that there is a defect in the circuit which, given access to the pair and sufficient time to perform some tests, a competent person should be able to trace and fix.
But (and it is a very big "but") fault-finding is not a pure, logical, science where "if it is not black it is therefore white". Fault-finding is far more of a mysterious art, where experience counts and every aspect of the overall picture must be taken into account. Black Sheep has said (on more than one occasion) that remote fault-finding by means of symptoms posted to a web-site is a very poor substitute for physical access to the circuit in question.
Edited to add: Konrado5, I appreciate that you have a very special ability to focus upon very minute aspects of a problem. And that ability is, undoubtedly, a gift. But when one is considering a potential or observed problem with an xDSL circuit such minute attention to detail is actually a hindrance. One has to accept the probabilities, be able to "feel" what seems to be shown and then perform an estimation as to what the problem may well be. Once the fault has been found and fixed, one then takes that fact into consideration when attempting to analyse a newly reported problem. Sometimes things are because they are. (Or as I have said in the past, on average things will be average. ;) )
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It's bad that TDR devices are very expensive and I can't do TDR of my line because I have not got fault, I have only anomalies. But I'm very curious.
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It's bad that TDR devices are very expensive and I can't do TDR of my line because I have not got fault, I have only anomalies. But I'm very curious.
Konrado, we know very well that you're curious. But this thread is not about your connection, and the minutiae of your connection has already been discussed to death. Leave it there.
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The connection has been dropping much more frequently than this graph would suggest and as evidenced by the Attenuation Log?
DSLstats records the Signal attenuation, which can and does change on the fly if there is sufficient enough of a problem.
Line attenuation is measured only during the Sync phase
~ What is the difference between Line Attenuation and Signal Attenuation?] (http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/linestats.htm#Signal_v_Line_Attenuation)
The connection speed is related to the attenuation, the lower the faster?
Yes in theory. But attenuation is just actually a measurement that gives an indication of line length and condition. Its not unusual to see very small fluctuations, but when you have a line fault such as yours, certain theories go a bit out of the window :(
Your upstream attenuation is way off. In theory for a good line upstream attenuation should be approx half of the downstream. The fact that your upstream attenuation is more than your downstream shows that upstream frequencies are being very badly affected too.
With regards to the DSLAM and Annex_M, wouldn't it eventually be handed out if the connection was stable enough?
Yes -sort of. It has to be made available as a profile, but in your case there are insufficient tones available in he upstream to make use of Annex_M, so it automatically wont select it.
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It's bad that TDR devices are very expensive and I can't do TDR of my line because I have not got fault, I have only anomalies. But I'm very curious.
Yes, I appreciate that. The Tester 301C that I own cost me £47 in an eBay auction, if I remember correctly. It is a very basic device with sufficient functionality to perform the required tasks.
To purchase either an Exfo AXS-200/635 or a JDSU HST-3000c as a refurbished second hand item would cost me thousands of pounds! Money that I could not afford to spend . . . especially on just a hobby! :no:
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Thank you everyone for your input. Would raising this issue via the bt forums be a more reliable way of getting this fixed than phoning 150?
I'm apprehensive of doing so because of the possible costs incurred. If I replicate the SNR M changing when it receives a ringing voltage be enough to prove to any engineer that there's a problem that he can fix and won't charge me for?
Am I being silly in thinking theres not a graph showing the signal attenuation (Since why would there be one as there generally shouldn't be a problem).
So when it syncs at 10.5D/5U that's the best available? Which makes me curious as the download is higher than the upload, is that normal?
As a side note I guess; for the price of one of those fancy testers you could buy a couple of bonded lines and pay for a few months too (Not an entire term though). Speaking of which, I am planning to get a 2nd line with a different provider will I suffer the same fate as I currently am. (I am going to fix the issue first before getting the 2nd installed.)
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Would raising this issue via the bt forums be a more reliable way of getting this fixed than phoning 150?
Whilst this is IMHO a telephone (voice) fault and should be reported via 150. The impact on your adsl appears to be more of an issue and more easily provable that there is a problem. If it were me and faced with your concerns over the possibility of a charge, I'd probably phone up BT and report it as a broadband fault. Your ISP should easily be able to see that your were previously able to sync at 2Mb and now you are getting a pitiful 339 upstream. The changes in SNRm seem fairly easy for you to replicate - and although I doubt the person on the phone at BT will understand what you are on about, any half decent broadband engineer should be able to see and replicate this too.
It would be nice if all BT Openreach engineers understood the benefit of programs like DSLstats and make use of them. There are some like BlackSheep who do. Ive shown a few BToR engineers my graphs and all of them were interested in its capabilities. We are making slow progress - some ISPs such as Plusnet will accept evidence from DSLstats and HG612_modem_stats as proof of a fault.
Am I being silly in thinking theres not a graph showing the signal attenuation
No it doesnt graph in dslstats - its just a logfile. hg612_modem_stats graphs it. Perhaps its something Eric could put on his very long a-round-tuit list, but you are correct that normally its not worth it because it doesnt hardly move.
So when it syncs at 10.5D/5U that's the best available?
Sorry Im not sure if I understand that question. In the past youve sync'd at much higher speeds, so no its not the best available to you. Your sync speeds are fluctuating all over the place. It will sync at the best it can for the prevailing line conditions.
Which makes me curious as the download is higher than the upload, is that normal?
Yes - its why its called Asymmetric DSL. Normal adsl2+ (annex_a) is limited to circa 1.2 Mb. Annex_M borrows some of the downstream tones and can give a maximum upstream of 2.6Mbps. Downstream maximum for adsl2+ is 24Mbps.
I am planning to get a 2nd line with a different provider will I suffer the same fate as I currently am.
Hopefully not - but it entirely depends on how the 2nd line is provisioned.
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If the audible noise is now constantly present, I would be inclined to report it (via 150) as a noisy telephone circuit -- "Can you hear that crackling?" -- and do not make any mention of the broadband service (as to do so will only give Beattie India room to "wriggle" and prevaricate).
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My hearing might be very different to an automated systems, will it pick it up the noise if I hear it? (Isn't there an 0845 service where can phone you and record the call? Specifically for this purpose?)
I had a period of less than audible than before noise, which I think is the period the SNR M was at 17db. (I have zero clue as to why this happened.) I picked up the phone as I had noticed the SNR M had risen, when I did this the SNR M started to drop. (I have attached a graph.)
If my line is less than 500 metres (If my line is exchange only and the building is less than 50 metres away in a straight line, I would be confident is saying it should be less than 500.) long should I expect these SNR M's? (But as there's a possible line fault it could be anything!?) And shouldn't I of been getting speeds greater than before the issue increased exponentially.
I greatly apologize for my obtuse question, I currently cannot think of a better way to word my question. :-[
Update: Left DSLstats running over night. Here's the SNR M, it looks very strange?
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You have crackly pops wit the faceplate removed and only a corded handset attached to the test socket. You could go one better and try a second corded handset to rule this out but you already have a second piece of equipment suffering; your modem.
On that basis alone you could log a line fault with 150.
Of course, there's a small chance someone will attend and NFF you but given how bad your stats are on both legs, I would hope this would be glaringly obvious to any half tidy line tech.
Your other option is to push it to your ISP who will log it out on your behalf and the onus is firmly on them to prove it. I have seen LTOKs for poor performers but I would be surprised if this one passed given your HLOG.
Your likely path of least resistance is to call your ISP and say 'Internet is crap, please investigate!' Nobody cares about SNR because it's not exclusive to copper issues so probably not worth mentioning unless asked. Your HLOG might help, *if* they ask for more info but they can probably pull one off the line with a DELT anyway.
Your likely quickest resolution is log a PSTN fault for pops/clicks/bangs - don't mention Internets.
I realise this doesn't directly answer your question but sometimes the real goal is 'how do I get my blatant line fault/Internet fixed without getting slammed with bs charges' :)
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I phoned BT Broadband support as I felt I had more chance proving there is something wrong. However they tell me nothing is wrong and they will call me back in 2 days time (On Wednesday). I think I'm being perhaps led around a ring.
I think I'm going to be stuck with this connection as it is. I think I'm going to need to escalate it to someone whose not in a random Indian call centre.....
(I left DSLstats while I went to work and I think it quite clearly still shows there's a problem.)
Sidenote: It appears it only shows the dslam information when "ppp debug mode" is enabled on the router.
DSLAM/MSAN type: IFTN:0x71c8 / v0x71c8
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IFTN:0x71c8
:(
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After a few more calls, I have this reported as a fault and it's in the first stage? (ie they are going to watch my line and then do nothing, as there is apparently nothing wrong with it according to their tests, no mention of an engineer.)
Also boost, why the sad face?
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Could you attach your Hlog, QLN and other graphs after removing of fault?
Best regards
konrado5
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After a few more calls, I have this reported as a fault and it's in the first stage? (ie they are going to watch my line and then do nothing, as there is apparently nothing wrong with it according to their tests, no mention of an engineer.)
Also boost, why the sad face?
http://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php?topic=13794.msg259895#msg259895
Could be coincidence I suppose or they are just the most widely deployed but the alarming majority of my faults have been based off these DSLAMs.
TalkTalk use a very similar IFTN 71C6 but BT/non-LLU use 71C8.
I'd do wonder what make/model this DSLAM is tbh.
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Boost I'd keep at BT and if necessary ask to speak to the technical team or 2nd line support. If you got the Indian call centre, unfortunately these people are unlikely to have a clue how things work.
You need to stress how your upstream was previously 2Mb, but you can now only get circa 400Kbps. If you can get through to second line support, they are more likely to understand SNR Margin and the impact it can have on the line. It wont harm either posting on their forums as well. One of their tech team may see your graphs.
Good luck :)
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Boost I'd keep at BT and if necessary ask to speak to the technical team or 2nd line support. If you got the Indian call centre, unfortunately these people are unlikely to have a clue how things work.
You need to stress how your upstream was previously 2Mb, but you can now only get circa 400Kbps. If you can get through to second line support, they are more likely to understand SNR Margin and the impact it can have on the line. It wont harm either posting on their forums as well. One of their tech team may see your graphs.
Good luck :)
We go via another (very poor) CP for the bulk of our ADSL stuff. I feel too far removed to start shouting about something I can't quite prove as yet.
Getting closer though, with help from this excellent forum :D
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Can the OP do us a favour and let us know what exchange he/she is on?
http://www.samknows.com/exchange_search
On that website, cuse your postcode, NOT your number. It gets the nearest available exchange. Can you pop the code of the exchange back? it'll be something like NDSIT (is what mines called)
Usually all capital letters in that form :)
Cheers,
A
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it'll be something like NDSIT (is what mines called)
b*cat's sleepy eye recognises that as "North Downs Sittingbourne", Kent. ;)
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Engineer just left my property. (Like 10 mins ago)
My HLog and QLN are a bit different.
I also managed to snap some pics of the engineers device while it was testing my adsl, if anyone wants pics i will gladly oblige.
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You have ADSL2 or G.DMT instead ADSL2+. Why?
I also managed to snap some pics of the engineers device while it was testing my adsl, if anyone wants pics i will gladly oblige.
Could you attach pics of the engineers device?
Could you attach SNR margin graph and general router stats?
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You have ADSL2 or G.DMT instead ADSL2+. Why?
I also managed to snap some pics of the engineers device while it was testing my adsl, if anyone wants pics i will gladly oblige.
Could you attach pics of the engineers device?
Could you attach SNR margin graph and general router stats?
This should answer your questions. (I don't know why it's G rather than 2+, probably because of the crappy line and the dslam has to retrain?)
Stats recorded 29 Jul 2014 13:41:41
DSLAM/MSAN type: IFTN:0x71c8 / v0x71c8
Modem/router firmware: AnnexA version - A2pD030g.d22j
DSL mode: G
Status: Showtime
Uptime: 1 hours 38 min 29 sec
Resyncs: 0 (since 29 Jul 2014 12:06:08)
Downstream Upstream
Line attenuation (dB): 9.5 5.5
Signal attenuation (dB): 9.5 4.6
Connection speed (kbps): 4544 448
SNR margin (dB): 26.4 29.0
Power (dBm): 19.8 8.6
Interleave depth: 32 4
INP: 1.42 1.88
RSCorr/RS (%): 0.0000 0.0000
RSUnCorr/RS (%): 0.0000 0.0000
ES/hour: 0 0
(I need to upload the other pictures via another site.)
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(https://forum.kitz.co.uk/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FmAt5ZET.jpg&hash=b3f41ffd3aaab1a87672e1d8eff6d9a1aa7c1bde)
(https://forum.kitz.co.uk/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FTwEHhHo.jpg&hash=7a2134bec3c18fa23119c8b18360dba90b4c55e2)
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Haven't read this thread at all, it's only because of the pictures that I'm commenting so apologies if it's been covered ?
I would suggest you have a small HR fault there, as the WB Noise is low (not critical but enough for concern) and the REIN counter has clocked up almost 100 counts. This doesn't mean it is REIN, it just means its picking up interference of some kind.
The problem here is that the 'Test Summary' of this PQT shows as a pass, but I'll bet a pound to a pinch of …………. that the individual leg-balances are out by quite a few ohms ??
It would appear you're quite near to the Exchange, has the engineer gone to carry out any further work or did he just say his goodbyes ??
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Engineer has left, he just replaced the cable running down the side of the house. (It was a phone eng rather than BB). It stopped the very audible crackling going on the line though.
I'll wait the 3 days then phone again.
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Hold on a mo ...... were the photo's of the tester done after the cable renewal, or before ?? If it was before, he's most likely cured the problem and those obscure meter readings ?
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Line techs get JDSUs? :D
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You've lost me, Boost ?? I would say nigh-on 100% of all in-house engineers have either an EXFO or a JDSU. ;D
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In Poland unfortunately engineers has not got JDSU. Netia for example uses NetiaSpot modem to test.
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Are they poor in comparison, konrado ?? Never heard of them.
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NetiaSpot is Netia's router. I've heard they are poor.
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Ah right, so they're just a router ...... not a tester ?? Do you know what instrument is most widely used in Poland to test the metallic path facility ??
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Ah right, so they're just a router ...... not a tester ?? Do you know what instrument is most widely used in Poland to test the metallic path facility ??
Most widely they use only some router and generator. Hardly ever semone uses CableShaker.
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Those pics are after the cable down the side of the house were replaced.
(Internets are still bad, but I assume the dslam will fix it if the line is good...)
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My connection has been stable for 8+ hours now.
Here's some graphs. I noticed on the previous graph I was missing a few tones, here they are present.
Is there any reason as to why my max upload rate is only 888Kbps?
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Wholesale always make such a point of 'we only do the coppery bits' that you kinda expect the toolbox to include nothing more than a wire cutters and a stamp down tool! :D
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1 day later. Speed has increased, but not to the full attainable rate.
Stats recorded 30 Jul 2014 23:36:01
DSLAM/MSAN type: IFTN:0x71c8 / v0x71c8
Modem/router firmware: AnnexA version - A2pD030g.d22j
DSL mode: ADSL2+
Status: Showtime
Uptime: 9 hours 16 min 21 sec
Resyncs: 0 (since 29 Jul 2014 23:25:28)
Downstream Upstream
Line attenuation (dB): 9.5 5.5
Signal attenuation (dB): 9.5 4.8
Connection speed (kbps): 8128 448
SNR margin (dB): 12.1 30.0
Power (dBm): 19.7 9.4
Interleave depth: 1 1
INP: 0 0
RSCorr/RS (%): N/A N/A
RSUnCorr/RS (%): N/A N/A
ES/hour: 1.17 0
Speed isn't a massive issue, though it would be nice to return to normal. I'm just happy I don't have many errors and the interleave is off.
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I wonder if it's worth asking for an SNR reset?
At a glance, those line stats are good for 20Mb ish? Your current synch screams ADSL Max too, despite ADSL2+ being neg'd.
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Connection speed (kbps): 8128 448
Which is a standard adsl1 sync speed, yet dslmode is ADSL2+ suggesting an artificial limit is in place somewhere.
Ive said elsewhere that your stats are similar to what mine were on adsl2+ annex_m and I could at one time get the full 24/2.6 Mb. Overtime crosstalk took some of that away but you should still be able to get >20Mb
My first port of call is to make sure that the ISP has the correct account type. If it was anything related to the DSLAM or DLM then I wouldnt expect to see ADSL2+ as the DSL mode.
The fact that interleave has been turned off indicates possibly that the DLM has recently been reset.
iirc youre paying for annex_m... and that account is definitely not set as annex-m so you need to get on to your ISP again Im afraid.
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Wholesale always make such a point of 'we only do the coppery bits' that you kinda expect the toolbox to include nothing more than a wire cutters and a stamp down tool! :D
Ha ha , I see where you're coming from .... as far as I'm aware though, 'Wholesale' do the backhaul bit (Completely fibre-based), not the 'coppery bit'. That's left to us ..... Openreach. Both are BT 'Lines of business', but completely separate from one another.
As we all know, it's the 'coppery bit' that determines the success of a ADSL/VDSL (FTTC) circuit, which is why there was a programmes rolled out a few years ago to bring the standard of testers up to par. However, the SIN tests which were agreed by all parties when unbundling came to fruition, isn't as good as it maybe could be on some circuits.
That's not for me to debate though and I fear we may be wandering OT slightly. This was just for awareness purposes. :) :)
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Excellent info as always, cheers :D
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:drink:
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As a complete aside, I've seen those DSLAMs exceed 832Kb/s upstream in ADSL1 mode which I had thought wasn't possible...? :o
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maximum upstream in the adsl1 and 2 spec is 1.3mbit.
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Interesting. Native or with s=1/2?
Have you come across any BT products that advertise a synch speed higher than 832Kb up for ADSL1?
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I've not come across any products offering it, no. I've just read in various places that 1.3mbit is what the spec allows for upstream.
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That's confirmed by this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asymmetric_digital_subscriber_line#ADSL_standards (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asymmetric_digital_subscriber_line#ADSL_standards) (see G.dmt)
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Another day, another resync.
Stats recorded 31 Jul 2014 22:19:37
DSLAM/MSAN type: IFTN:0x71c8 / v0x71c8
Modem/router firmware: AnnexA version - A2pD030g.d22j
DSL mode: ADSL2+
Status: Showtime
Uptime: 9 hours 57 min 22 sec
Resyncs: 0 (since 31 Jul 2014 12:22:34)
Downstream Upstream
Line attenuation (dB): 10.0 4.6
Signal attenuation (dB): 10.0 4.4
Connection speed (kbps): 20127 443
SNR margin (dB): 5.8 31.3
Power (dBm): 0.0 12.4
Interleave depth: 1 1
INP: 0 0
RSCorr/RS (%): N/A N/A
RSUnCorr/RS (%): N/A N/A
ES/hour: 0 0
On the whole sale tester (and speedtest.net) the download seems to go no faster than 12. Not quite sure why it's saying 20 :S
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It's going in the right direction!
Your power value has taken another day off though :P
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notaclue: attach new Hlog, SNR margin and new QLN.
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On the whole sale tester (and speedtest.net) the download seems to go no faster than 12. Not quite sure why it's saying 20 :S
The speed tests are measuring throughput whereas that line in your statistics is showing the synchronisation speed between the DSLAM/MSAN and CPE. They are two different entities. :)
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The speed tests are measuring throughput whereas that line in your statistics is showing the synchronisation speed between the DSLAM/MSAN and CPE. They are two different entities. :)
fffffffffff of course.
notaclue: attach new Hlog, SNR margin and new QLN.
The graphs are basically the same which is why I didn't post them. The only thing that has changed is the SNRM on my download which as dropped to 6, which is also in the stats I posted.
It's going in the right direction!
Your power value has taken another day off though :P
I wondered if anyone would notice ;) Seems rather peculiar.
I'm hoping my upload will return to normal within a few days.
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The graphs are basically the same which is why I didn't post them. The only thing that has changed is the SNRM on my download which as dropped to 6, which is also in the stats I posted.
The HLOG will be different.
Edge of my seats here tbh so get it posted up ASAP! :D
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It's really not changed at all. Honestly.
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Lumpy initial red vanished.
Job done! :D
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Lumpy initial red vanished.
Job done! :D
Yeah, it's currently
Stats recorded 01 Aug 2014 22:57:37
DSLAM/MSAN type: IFTN:0x71c8 / v0x71c8
Modem/router firmware: AnnexA version - A2pD030g.d22j
DSL mode: ADSL2+
Status: Showtime
Uptime: 4 hours 13 min 3 sec
Resyncs: 0 (since 31 Jul 2014 12:22:34)
Downstream Upstream
Line attenuation (dB): 10.0 4.6
Signal attenuation (dB): 10.0 4.3
Connection speed (kbps): 21927 1187
SNR margin (dB): 2.2 7.1
Power (dBm): 0.0 11.9
Interleave depth: 1 1
INP: 0 0
RSCorr/RS (%): N/A N/A
RSUnCorr/RS (%): N/A N/A
ES/hour: 1.58 0
(https://forum.kitz.co.uk/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.speedtest.net%2Fresult%2F3662654138.png&hash=f337441617c8146e0d5f4a06f59367de52cf9d5d)
(my isp isnt at&t, but okay...)
Is there any reason for the QLN being so high? Maybe it's always been this high.
Maybe I should take this back into the QLN topic since really the big issue appears to have been resolved. Thank you very much gentlemen.
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I've not come across any products offering it, no. I've just read in various places that 1.3mbit is what the spec allows for upstream.
No me neither, its always in the 800 region. The one thing that does occur to me though is that upstream is heavily shaped and has PSD masks applied to form the familiar inverted 'U' shape to prevent crosstalk. This means that the upstream tones are never fully bit-loaded at certain frequencies - even if power cut back isnt applied.
(https://forum.kitz.co.uk/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.kitz.co.uk%2Frouters%2Fimages%2FDMTv7_channels.png&hash=fd55f1bf5cf82ed78c2560fd6adf7f8655eaa789)
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notaclue: attach new Hlog, SNR margin and new QLN.
Thats fine, I dont mind having to go through server files every few months and clearing out superfluous large files to make space in the several GBs of attatchment files that are stored because certain people have an obsession with hlog and qln ::) I do have to store other vital files to ensure the smooth running of the main site.
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I stress... No I dont normally mind and normally its not a problem ... its been perfectly fine until recently.. but the increases over the past few months have got a bit silly with certain people asking for hlogs and qlns at every post. This site doesnt generate anywhere near enough income for a sever costing several hundred to thousands pound per month :(
Im not asking anyone to genuinely be afraid of asking someone to attach stats, but please dont get silly about it.
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I do have to store other vital files to ensure the smooth running of the main site.
Please don't lie to us. :P
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@notaclue: I'm not sure what you mean by that, but what Kitz says is absolutely true - server space costs money, and the Kitz sites use an absolute minimum of advertising, so it's reasonable to ask members to keep this in mind when using attachments.
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I was being facetious.
I didn't mean to offend anyone. Apologies if I did.
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ukonline officially offered 1mbit upload on their adsl1 product which my 50db attenuation line handled.
Dan at ukonline unofficially uncapped some lines (mine included) and my 50db attentuation line was able to hit 1.2mbit upstream. In my opinion tho when my line was running at 1.2 up it was less stable so was hurting stability. But was fine on 1mbit.
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@notaclue: no problem, it's forgotten.
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I stress... No I dont normally mind and normally its not a problem ... its been perfectly fine until recently.. but the increases over the past few months have got a bit silly with certain people asking for hlogs and qlns at every post. This site doesnt generate anywhere near enough income for a sever costing several hundred to thousands pound per month :(
Im not asking anyone to genuinely be afraid of asking someone to attach stats, but please dont get silly about it.
Had no idea it was an issue soz! I will go back to using dropbox :D
You could probably disable new additions for that feature and people would learn to use the alternatives.
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No.. Im sorry, I was being grumpy and having a moan... its not normally an issue
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Sorry for the bump here.
I am being charged for my visit back a few months ago on this months bill, I have obviously contested this and have been told that since we painted the house we have damaged the cable.
Now, I'm no expert but I do think that's a bit of bullshit considering the house hasn't been painted in over a decade.
Am I going to have to go down the small claims route/ADR scheme to get my money back? (This isn't a huge problem, just inconvenience...)
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I take it straight back to BT (your ISP) first. iirc the cable replaced was outside your house and therefore on the BT side of the NTE.
Pulling out the painting of the house when it hasnt been is a low down dirty trick IMHO. Luckily you have lots of photos and screen caps to show there was an issue with your line. Id be going mental at my ISP asking where on earth painting the house comes into it and where that gem has come from.
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I take it straight back to BT (your ISP) first. iirc the cable replaced was outside your house and therefore on the BT side of the NTE.
Pulling out the painting of the house when it hasnt been is a low down dirty trick IMHO. Luckily you have lots of photos and screen caps to show there was an issue with your line. Id be going mental at my ISP asking where on earth painting the house comes into it and where that gem has come from.
I've realized, never mentioned my ISP is BT Retail. I phoned my other ISP just for some unofficial advice and they basically said it was a fishing exercise.
I asked how painting over a cable a decade ago (Painted over the drop down cable.) would affect it. I also said that they own the any equipment past the faceplate but retorted with that since we had painted over we had damaged it. I cannot find any information on any BT website about painting over cables.
I honestly didn't believe they were being serious at first, but they are standing by there original decision. Unbelievable really. We have and are being escalated to their final complaints department, and will receive a deadlock letter if they don't agree to drop the charge. (I guess we go to ADR after the deadlock letter.)
I must thank you again kitz!
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you can dispute the invoice and likewise ask them to dispute with openreach, also request them to not take it via direct debit. But instead bill it separately.
If it was me in your shoes basically I would withold payment until they "prove" its what they say it is.
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They've already taken payment under direct debit. I believe under direct debit guarantee we can get the bank to reclaim the money, but then that doesn't stop bt from still claiming I owe them money.
When the last tier of escalation calls (In the next 4 working days) I will ask them to do what you said Chrysalis, I honestly never thought of that.
Also, If I withhold payment, I take it they will turn off the line. (Not that it matters I have 2.) Has anyone else ever heard something as audacious as this?
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They may threaten to do so, but I would only withold the engineer fee, not line rental or broadband subs.
In my view they would be in breach of t&c's to try and enforce the callout fee without proving thats the reason for the fault. Which basically means another engineer callout to do tests to prove the paint over the cable is the reason, they wont do that, much more likely they back down.
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The faulty cable is still attached to the side of the house because the engineer didn't want to take it down.
I don't think I cant withhold anymore if they have already taken it by direct debit.
8 weeks before I can take this matter to ADR, good job I'm not living paycheck to paycheck or this would seriously screw me over.
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the dd rules allow you to revoke the dd payment. :)
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Yea, I'm aware of the DDG. I've had 0 luck in the past getting my bank to honor it. BT hold all the cards here.
Anyways, all this just getting me frustrated even thinking about it. :D
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if your bank refuse they breaking the law :)
you can always complain to BT of course and ask for refund if you prefer to be more polite.
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if your bank refuse they breaking the law
The bank can attempt to request a refund, but it is possible for the other side to dispute this. There's a very good reason why only certain reputable companies can use the direct debit system.
When notified, the bank debits their dd-suspense account and credits the customers account. They then send off a direct debit indemnity claim form to the other company... and wait. Once a week someone in the bank balances the dd-suspense ledger.. so in other words check to make sure all refunds are received. If the other company hasnt returned it after a month, then the bank has to chase.. and it is possible for the company to dispute. In cases like this, the bank has no alternative but to re-debit the customers account.
That is why the dd guarantee should only be used if a payment has been made in error. Believe me Ive dealt with 100/1000s of these over the years and it does sometimes come to stale-mate.
The other option we used to see is that the company would refund the bank, then simply chase the customer via other means. Whats one of the first thing BT are going to do if they feel you havent paid a bill?
I think notaclue would be far better taking this up with BT direct and hope that he can get someone to see sense. This is where I'd be complaining to.. Id perhaps even go to the top if need be.
Yes if you are stuggling you can buy some time by using the ddguarantee, but in the long term its not always the best option. You'd need to investigate other options such as the ADR or OFCOM.
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This will be going to an ADR, I will be receiving a deadlock letter in the post. The apparently cant include an engineering report because of data protection. (Is that normal?)
Just thought I'd keep you updated. I have no idea how long it will take to get my money back, if I even do. -_-
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The apparently cant include an engineering report because of data protection. (Is that normal?)
To me that reads of hog-wash. >:(
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The apparently cant include an engineering report because of data protection. (Is that normal?)
To me that reads of hog-wash. >:(
I am not making this up!
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I realise that. You are up against an entity that will use every trick available to it to obstruct, obscure and obfuscate. :-X