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[sevenlayermuddle]

For once, I think, Willie Walsh has earned my respect.  This story's popping up all over the place, orange is just one example...

http://web.orange.co.uk/article/news/did_ba_brinkmanship_force_no_fly_zone_u_turn

I'm no expert in aviation safety, and I really don't have an opinion as to whether or not the ban was necessary.  But I've seen so much evidence of the over-protective nanny-state that I'm certainly open minded to the possibility it was an over-reaction.  If that was indeed the case, and Willie Walsh has forced common-sense to prevail, he deserves a Knighthood.  (But only after everybody's forgotten about the T5 fiasco a few years ago, the cabin-crew strike, etc... etc...   )

Just my thoughts.

[scottiesmum]

I'm aware that 'safety first' is always a good place to start but I felt that there was a knee jerk over reaction  by the UK government to the initial information given.    I  too am extremely suspicious that very soon after a warning was given  yesterday that another 'cloud' was heading for the UK and flights would be held up until today at 7 am at the earliest, suddenly it was 'all change'  and the airports were opened within an hour          It was also interesting that after the 'election posturing'  IMHO  ...  of "offering "the Navy  as a form of rescuing stranded British  ...... Lord Adonis  (was there ever a misnomer  )   announced that  it was up to everyone to make their own way back to the UK now that the crisis was over      I know that one naval ship took on 200 civilians  in Northern Spain,  but when asked where Ark Royal was going to be stationed, it couldn't be divulged because of security reasons         that made me smile !     However,  as for  Willie Walsh being made a Sir  ....       

[sevenlayermuddle]

It was also interesting that after the 'election posturing'  IMHO  ...  of "offering "the Navy  as a form of rescuing stranded British  ...... Lord Adonis  (was there ever a misnomer  )   announced that  it was up to everyone to make their own way back to the UK now that the crisis was over   

I share your views on that.  I suspect Gordon only announced the Navy's involvement because he expected the ban to be lifted before it was exposed as sheer bluff  (Sadly, of course, Mr C appeared on TV a few minutes later claiming the Navy had been his idea all along).

Come to think of it, if by facing down the authorities, WW reminds the voting public us all of the overwhelming incompetence of Gordon's government, which seemed to have been forgotten recently, I may be campaigning for a Sainthood, not just a Knighthood 

[silversurfer44]

I just can't help wondering what the outcry would be if the knee jerk reaction hadn't been taken and an almighty calamity took place where several aeroplanes crashed. Better safe than sorry. The number of times nothing has been done before floods and such. Last winter has soon been forgotten.

[HPsauce]

there was a knee jerk over reaction  by the UK government to the initial information given.

However, it's not the government that made ANY of the decisions to shut (or reopen) air space so your basic premise is wrong.
And it was all done on a European basis....
 
Not that that will stop all the daily comics blaming the government in general and probably Mr Brown specifically for the volcano and all its consequences. Especially if they can score a few political points  

The biggest problems seem to be:
1. Airlines dropping some (but not all) people and not helping them
2. Rail strike in France
3. Unrealistic excpectations of some (but by no means all) independent cut-price travellers that "someone" should bail them out in all situations, and not taking any precautions themselves against unexpected events.
4. Media mis-reporting, especially of what facilities were/would be available to people who are stuck
(e.g. it was VERY clear initially that the plans for a Madrid "hub" were ONLY for long-distance flights diverted there from outside Europe, but that was not clearly reported later resulting in unrealistic expectations from European travellers)
5. Inadequate cut-price insurance cover.

PS My son is still stuck in Hong Kong but hopes to come back some time in the next few days.

[camallison]

Having been personally involved in the investigation on what happened to BA 009 over Indonesia in 1982, I can quite categorically say that the decision to not fly until full checks were made by test flights was the correct one.  Those flights plus the checks on the engines are not lightly taken and the checks alone take at least 24 hours.  BA009 was without engine power for 13 minutes and 20,000 feet descent.  We shipped the engines from BA009 back to the UK for stripping down and checking - what a mess!  Also, the windshield glass was opaque from the dust hitting it in a sandblasting manner.  Paint was stripped from the nose and wing leading edge.

I was due to fly to Rome this Friday with Sue for a short holiday - we have moved our reservation to another time - I don't think it is yet time for us to fly, but will bow to superior knowledge elsewhere and still be a "coward" for ourselves.

Colin

[scottiesmum]

@  HP   .... The National Air Traffic Service   (NATS)  reports  its findings to the Government, it is then  for the government  to make a decision on whether the UK airspace will be closed.     Of course it was a European decision; if the UK air space was closed the rest of  Europe (in fact the world) had to take into consideration any flights that would enter that space and  act accordingly.  Hence in Northern France for instance the airports were closed; which in turn affected some southern French airports (but not all) .  In northern Spain certain airports were closed mainly due logistics.     

Unrealistic expectations of some (but by no means all) independent cut-price travellers that "someone" should bail them out in all situations, and not taking any precautions themselves against unexpected events.   

I totally agree with that   ... although I had great sympathy for those stranded with  very young children, the infirm and ailing.

The French rail strike, which had been prearranged many weeks ago, was unfortunate in that it coincided with the air event.....  although in their favour, the day after the strike they cut the rail fares by up to 50% to assist  people going  to the Eurostar and channel links.    (I bet the UK media didn't report that !  )

Hope your son gets back safe soon.

I must say that had it been me 'stranded'  ..  rather than spending  thousands on taxis, hire cars etc ...  to get back I would have spent those thousands on  extending my  holiday  8)


@ Colin  (ss)  ...  I know hindsight is a wonderful thing      

[sevenlayermuddle]

I caught a small snippet on the R4  lunchtime news, that Lord Adonis has now admitted the "international" advisors were wrong.    He didn't comment the purpose of advisors is to advise, not to compell.  The fact does seem to be emerging that the governemnt accepted advice that was wrong, without questioning it, and that it was left to industry (Willie Walsh) to make them face up to their mistake.

Personally, I simply don't have an opinion on whether it is safe to fly aircraft in volcanic ash, it's way beyond my spere of knowledge.  But Willie Walsh, for all his faults, does have access to the facts, and he will have experts who understand the safety issues, and concluded it was safe to fly.  Assuming he was right, then it's a shame the government didn't have any experts of their own that could have come to the same conclusion sooner.

If Willie Walsh was wrong, and the UK government was right to heed the advisors,  then Walsh should of course face life imprisonment for endangering thousands of lives. My personal hunch is that won't be the outcome.

[silversurfer44]

I really do sympathise with people that are stranded both here and in other countries, but I also applaud the people in the right place that had the forward thinking, and the guts to advise the closing of all that airspace.
It must have been terrifying, Colin, to be aboard a plane in the situation that yours was in.
I'm just pleased that there has been no air crashes throughout this episode, which is not over yet.

[geep]

It's been great here these last few days. I'm pretty close to Stansted, and it's been lovely in the garden without the planes.

As the world didn't actually stop due to lack of aircraft, perhaps some political party would propose as addition to their manifesto the closure of all UK airports periodically - say one weekend a month. That would give the millions of
people living near airports some respite.

I have the thought that one of our European neighbours had a ban on lorries on motorways at weekends, or Sundays.
But can't remember if it was Italy, France or Germany. Anyway, that would be a good idea too.

I used to live in Germany in the '90s. They used to close all the shops early on Saturday afternoon. And all day Sunday.
That made life more peaceful too.

Cheers,
Peter

[camallison]

>> It must have been terrifying, Colin, to be aboard a plane in the situation that yours was in.

I wasn't on it, but was involved in the subsequent testing and report to the Air Accidents Investigations Board.  Every "event" is well investigated and lessons learned to prevent a repeat at some later date.  I later reviewed the report of the plane that suffered a similar ash "event" over Alaska some years later.  As you say, terrifying for the passengers and crew.

The Captain and Flight Engineer of that flight BA009 in 1982 were interviewed on BBC TV News on Friday morning and both reiterated the fact that NATS and Eurocontrol could only work to current guidelines and add experience of current conditions as details came in.  It takes time to collect and analyse data and, once a few test flights had been made, incorporate that data into their analysis and assessment.  This is the first time such an event has happened in an area where dense flight patterns and levels exist.  We can only expect initial chaos.

During the days since Thursday last week, NATO has experienced serious damage to the engines of several F-16s on patrol - sufficient proof that such conditions existed - but where and how dense?

Colin

[camallison]

>> I have the thought that one of our European neighbours had a ban on lorries on motorways at weekends, or Sundays.
But can't remember if it was Italy, France or Germany. Anyway, that would be a good idea too.

Germany - I lived there between 1982 and 1988 and can attest to the fact that the Autobahns were a pleasure to drive on on Sundays - no trucks!!!

[sevenlayermuddle]

During the days since Thursday last week, NATO has experienced serious damage to the engines of several F-16s on patrol - sufficient proof that such conditions existed - but where and how dense?

I would very much hope that military aircraft, if acting in the interests of national defence, would be prepared to accept hazards beyond that facing civilian aircraft.  If that meant following a flight path  close to high ash concentrations then I'd assume it may be a risk they were willing to take.

I would also very much hope that Willie Walsh would have been more cautious, and that he'd have made sure flght paths were chosen that went nowehere near any ash of such density.    As I said earlier, if Willie Walsh was taking any risks at all when he forced the re-opening then he was wrong and he should be thrown in jail.  But if he was right, some decision-makers heads should roll. 

[camallison]

Willie Walsh and a volunteer aircrew flew out of Heathrow along the air corridor that transatlantic flights take, straight out into the Irish Sea and Atlantic to cruising height, turning around off Ireland's West coast and came back to land at Cardiff airport .......... where BA have their engine maintenance plant - the right place to give the engines a full inspection - a 24-hour job.  He would not have been allowed to fly by NATS and Eurocontrol without all risks having been considered and full diversion airfield contingencies having been put in place.  It was no press stunt, but a carefully managed test flight with the man having the courage to join his volunteer crew.  My hat goes off to him - but he does know that a fully trained crew can recover from complete engine failure and land safely at the multitude of airports along the "over-the-UK" part of the flight.  After all, it was only lightly loaded and hence could have landed at many airports otherwise closed to a fully-loaded 747.

They had a choice of Boscombe Down, Lyneham, Fairford, Bristol Airport, Filton (can take an Airbus A380) and Cardiff as diversionary airfields - all glideable from above 15,000 feet.

No, not a publicity stunt, but a carefully managed test flight as reported.

Colin

[silversurfer44]

Hats off for doing the test flight you describe Colin. How many travellers would have been will ing to climb aboard a 747 with all their loved ones to test some theory I wonder.
Would Willie Walsh? SevenLayerMuddle?