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[strontium90]

Ok...1st post...I have been with BT for a number of years...as I live in rural N Ireland I didn't expect miracles...my problems started about Jan 2010...My Sister (who at 150m away) is my nearest neighbour...she and her hubby run security camera business and run servers in their house to remote view an download data from thir clients..they upgraded to a "TalkTalk" business line and since then, when they come home from work, go online (usually watching BBC HD on iPlayer) my snr can drop from around 6dB to about 1 or less...After much googling (a lot here!) I got a Netgear DG834G v4 and scrapped the BT Home hub...after these snr incidents my target snr was raised to something like 21dB...I used DGteamware, DMT Tool and routerstats...also I telneted it and got my snr back to 6(rather than wait a month for the DLM)...acceptable speed 4544kps steady..ip profile 4meg...I reported this snr to India, Btcare (Sympathetic) but basically BT Wholesale won't accept that I am getting crosstalk from my sister and refuse even to monitor my line...can you advise me is there any thing I can do, as I know they have boosted the power to my sis at my expense (we have same postcode and line attenuation of 53dB)..surely this is contrary to ofcom's guidelines
Routerstats of the snr drop are http://www.flickr.com/photos/dolmenman/4462469004/in/set-72157623690515934/

Edit...this snr margin drop can happen at any time during the weekend (when they are at home) e.g. 2.08pm last Sunday for an hour and a half so please don't sat it's am interference...I've also tried turning every electrical appliance in the house off, (heating, fridge, lights)leaving pc and router on to record stats..bell wire long since removed and one of those filtered splitter faceplates on master socket

[waltergmw]

Hi Strontium90 and welcome,

If TalkTalk operate a LLU in your exchange, then BT O should be able to observe if TT are exceeding the specified values.

If your sister would let you, how about installing the free Logmein software and run comparitive tests with routerstats and observe modem performance data on both services simultaenously, taking screen pictures of the two systems.

You might find that it is not the actual line traffic which is causing the problem but some sort of REIN when they e.g. turn the lights on.

Kind regards,
Walter

[strontium90]

Cheers for the reply Walter
I am at Castlewellan exchange (BT31) and it is pretty ancient so from "SamKnows" there is no LLU..just dsl max....Unfortunately, my sis isn't speaking to me since Monday (when she denied being on the internet at 2.08pm Sunday until I noticed a printout of a speedtester.bt.com lying beside their PC at guess what time..Sun 2.08pm)...we are at war as she claims when I upped my speed it affected her but as they have a better line (new build,last bit underground) they don't want to drop any more...she is a solicitor and I suspect she is in litigation with "TalkTalk" as she said she had guaranteed line speed from them and was paying through the nose for it(static ip etc)...when the dust settles and she realises that the problem is affecting her too, perhaps we can do as you suggest...however, I am on my own and do not see anywhere in ofcoms regulations, where one customer should have priority over another...I am sure there is cross-talk between the lines but BT O say BTw  are refusing to investigate as I don't have a problem per se (I still have broadband)..My line has been in since the '50's and has been repaired many times..i.e. branches, tractors, loads of hay catching it etc etc so there must be many joints...I am considering either contacting the guy Livingstone (if anyone has his email) or ofcom as the situation is unacceptable...I am sure it's not REIN as the problem only started when they got talk talk

[waltergmw]

Hi again Strontium90,

If there is no LLU then you are all using BT Wholesale's product and that in itself should not cause a difference in actual ADSL signals between houses.
Also if they are running servers from home, then that would suggest a fair comms load most of the time, rather than just when they get home. (Hence the suggestion of REIN.)

IMHO the only way to deal with this is to go through the normal fault repair channels or perhaps threaten to move to a different ISP.
You will get things moving much faster if you can stop the squabble and demonstrate the problem to BT Openreach.

It's worth checking from the test socket within the master socket if you have one and also do a 17070 quiet line test.

Some of the gurus might have some other ideas but you could give us your modem stats at differing times of the day and evening for further comment.

Kind regards,
Walter

[strontium90]

Thanks Walter
I have spent weeks talking to there asian fault people about this...very draining as they can't understand my Irish accent and I can't understand theirs...I had the same attitude from them last year when I had a stuck bras profile...i.e. "you are getting a brilliant speed of nearly 1meg"...I did try to escalate the problem with BT through their care forum, and whilst the moderators were very sympathtic, they checked my line during the day and I only have problems in the evening and during anytime at the week ends...THerefore BTw are refusing to escalate the problem and monitor my line....My snr margin always dropped in the evening as I have lots of poles and a strand of untwisted dual core wire supplying me....The problems only start when my Sister is at home

Here are some stats...the router has been running continuously for 15days hence the high number of errors...I will try to get a graph of when it drops tonight


Noise Margin:     4.2   dB
Connection Rate:  4544  Kbps
Line Attenuation: 53.0  dB
Power:            19.5  dBm
Max Rate:         5088  Kbps
 
SF:               12382742
SF Errors:        4629
Reed Solomon:     842026486
RS Corrected:     67044108
RS Un-Corrected:  17079
HEC:              3954
Errored Seconds:  9331
Severe ES:        979

Interleave Depth: 32
Bitswaps:         0

http://192.168.0.3:81/routerstats.htm

[waltergmw]

Hi 90Sr ,

You will see at:-

http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/max_speed_calc.php

that your sync speed is actually quite good.

If the problem was caused by bad wiring you might expect it to be similar at any time if it is not REIN affected.

Without getting into a sisterly dispute, can you positively prove your noise problem starts as soon as she opens the door?

Could it just be that noise increases in the evenings?

Is there any plant near you that starts in the evenings?

Is there any chance the problem is due to contention ?

Have you entered your phone line and postcode into:-

http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/adslchecker.php

and does that indicate any amber or red items?

Kind regards,
Walter

[strontium90]

Ok...I have joined this forum as it's about the best site I've seen...hence I even understand snr margins and attenuation...so have a pat on the back guys

I have tried everything for weeks now and this is the best sync/snr balance I can achieve (using all the tips I learnt here (esp adslctl configure --snr 65480!!)

I live on a farm with about 150 metres to the next house (my sis) and even further to the next houses(no street lights etc)...I have done every master socket test I can think of...turned electrical stuff off etc...fitted filtered faceplate, got from fleabay a DG834G v4 router...dmt tool etc
I'm on my 4th router in a month (HomeHub2, Voyager,dg834v5 and optimum performance out of the v4 (Broadcom chip)

It happens at 7 ->8pm during the week so I first thought REIN and have done all I can on that front

Then I thought AM radio interference as the my sister and I share the same poles up to her house, then it goes past my lane by 2 poles, a spur off before doubling back vis the same poles before the 3 pole journey up my lane.....the poles are ancient with white clay insulator pots so I thought would be very susceptible to interference(at one point I thought I had discovered a new Quasar!!!LOL)


There are no factories that operate at night round here but a steel works about half a mile away.that closes at 5 mon to fri.

There is the possibility of contention with my sis as shes on the same line (same attenuation of 52/53db depending on router (they use a dg834g v4 too and I'm sure her hubby tweaks

It also happens during the day at the weekends so I've ruled out sunspots and the like...infact the only common feature to this 3dB drop is them being at home...really...I can even tell when they go to bed!!!
I thought talktalk was prioritising their traffic but I now think it's cross talk on the line...I have done 17070 but their is nothing my middle aged ears can detect

I can't be bothered speaking to another Indian Call Centre and as I said BTw refuse to even monitor my line
The phone number checker is strange though, as I did it yesterday and my est speed was 2 meg...today its 3meg so perhaps my complaints are getting me somewhere

It hasn't happened tonight yet (although snr down to bout 3dB which is normal here) but I think they aren't in tonight so I wouldn't waste your time here if I wasn't pretty sure it wasn't BTw's rotting poles and ancient dual core, many jointed infrastructure..

[sevenlayermuddle]

Hi there,

Glad to hear you enjoy the forum.

I'm thinking that if this problem was cross talk, which I think is rather unlikely, then the fault would be present all the time your sister's router was powered on, regardless of whether or not they were at home, and regardless of whether they were actually using their PCs.   

Does their 240V mains supply, by any chance, pass close to your house?  If so, that could be propagating mains-borne  interference from some defective appliance in your sister's house, especially if the mains supply runs parallel to the phone lines, as is common out in the sticks.   If it coincides with them using their PCs, for example, then a dodgy PSU in one of their PCs may be a possibility.  Or, if they tend to have the lights on when they're home, a dodgy light fitting.  These are just examples.

One 'consolation' of a dodgy appliance in your sister's house would be that would be that your sister would probably be suffering even more than you.  So, if you could present her with the evidence, she would have a good incentive to try and fix it.

[strontium90]

Hi sevenlayermuddle
It dropped tonight there around 10 by about 2dB...I mean a sudden drop (This is what made th btHH lose sync in the first place)...I decided to phone my sis and she is on her own tonight (hubby not at pc) and she assures me she is watching TV...She has agreed to let me come down and examine their router stats over the weekend (I will try to get her to install RouterStats) to see if this drop is affecting her too...at least I will know if it is confined to me...
As for Mains supply, if you look http://www.flickr.com/photos/dolmenman/
and http://www.flickr.com/photos/dolmenman/4427004196/
you will see that is  a 3phase power supply with the phone line passing under it....it has never affected me previously though
My snr has dropped below 1dB but am hoping the Netgear will hang on for an hour or so as it will suddenly jump in an hour or so by 2dB
Any ideas?

[jeffbb]

HI  SR90
Just to emphasise the point Slm has made Even if your sister is out and assuming  she is leaving  her router on as I think you are doing then You would NOT see extra noise when she was actually using downloading .
Might be worth you looking at your bit loading  to see if there is any sign of AM interference . This will show itself as a dip in Bit loading coverin say 3 or four channels .
Regards Jeff

[waltergmw]

Hi 90Sr,

Keeping clear of any impropriety, you say you can tell when they go to bed.
It is perhaps unlikely that they would stop using their computers and suddenly jump into bed.
That suggests a possible lighting or perhaps a boiler/thermostat problem?
(We have observed faulty thermostats causing difficulties in the past.

I can't think of anything specifically to do with the probable 11 Kv 3 phase supply but I note you have a single phase transformer.
This arrangement can disturb the load ballancing of the phases but I doubt if that could be a problem just in the evenings.
It might be worth looking on a dark night for arcing and perhaps observing if weather makes any difference.

Kind regards,
Walter

[strontium90]

Netgear whooooooooooo!

Noise Margin:     3.5   dB
Connection Rate:  4544  Kbps
Line Attenuation: 53.0  dB
Power:            19.5  dBm
Max Rate:         5088  Kbps
 
SF:               14567571
SF Errors:        5095
Reed Solomon:     990594858
RS Corrected:     89384479
RS Un-Corrected:  20449
HEC:              4377
Errored Seconds:  9642
Severe ES:        979

Interleave Depth: 32
Bitswaps:         0

[jeffbb]

Hi
These sorts of changes do happen ,can be any thing electrical switching on . I have similar changes on my line . I have not been able to trace the source . The changes are not time related or even day related ,that is that sometimes ,mostly week end I  might not see any step changes .
Luckily It does not cause me any problems . see attachment as an example
I must admit I am wondering why you are so worried ?. You are pushing your line to the limit with your tweaking its giving you a better than expected synch rate . Remember that the normal default SNR margin is 6db. By forcing it down you are in effect reducing the amount of "elbow room" between your data and line noise . A 2db change when your margin is only about 3db looks like a big change , that same noise would only register as about 1db change with a margin of 6db.
I am not surprised that the help desk will not chase this problem your connection is good for your attenuation. The real question is how is your throughput ? are you having problems with downloads .
Regards Jeff



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[coolsnakeman]

I can't really see BTW touching this and they certainly won't monitor your line they will test it when you call but they won't monitor it. And on your point earlier on about your sister paying through the roof for her talk talk business line and perhaps getting liberties well that can't happen due to certain compliances SP have to stick to. Because you are both using BT's equipment at the exchange then OR, BT or BTW can not give any priorities to one line just because its a business line (i work for BT specialist repair team for business's in northern ireland). Has anyone had a thought that perhaps it may be down to his sisters equipment since this does only happen when his sister starts playing around in the house. Perhaps its the tv, router, server or her own lighting basically anything electrical. You also have to take into consideration your line is long! So you need to expect disconnections on your broadband from time to time (contention and all that).  You will have several PCP's along your route to your premises which i am sure many big lorries drive past every day of the week causing vibration which can cause your line to be a little shaky causing your fluctuations. Good look with this one because if this is down to REIN (which i would probably say it is) then you have one hell of a job eliminating to find the cause. Proving any of this to BT let alone BTW is going to be difficult and they will be reluctant to send a REIN engineer out to you until you have had an SFI first to prove of possible REIN. If there is anywhere you need to start looking its your sisters.

Good luck
Gary

[strontium90]

Thanks for the replies...snr didn't drop last night but dropped 2dB tonight around 7.30pm....The netgear has held and I'm still syncing at 4544kps...have been for a few days...my ip profile is now 4000kps...

My sister is syncing at 4192kps and had a snr of 7.8dB...her snr dropped at the same time as mine to 6.6dB (probably cos her target snr must be 9dB)

So I now think she is subject to the same noise issue as me...however, I have searched until I am blue in the face for REIN but the only things I haven't ruled out are the power lines and AM radio...looks like I'm going to have to put up with it...



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