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Author Topic: Spectrum and line quality  (Read 3571 times)

Edinburgh_lad

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Spectrum and line quality
« on: December 10, 2021, 06:56:19 PM »

Hello All

I was wondering if anyone would offer a comment regarding the attached screenshots: a) the spectrum quality, especially in the upper bands, where there seems to be a significant constant fluctuation in SNR, too; and b) the the quality of the connection, as shown in the Thinkbroadband screenshot, where there is a constant packet loss. Plusnet are saying the Thinkbroadband graph "doesn't look too bad".

Thank you in advance for your time and help.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2021, 07:08:06 PM by Edinburgh_lad »
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Weaver

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Re: Spectrum and line quality
« Reply #1 on: December 10, 2021, 09:50:39 PM »

The packet loss ("dripping blood" coming down from the top of the graph) looks horrendous but I can’t see how much traffic is being sent in either direction. (Here we go again, cracked record begins ;) If you can’t get Plusnet to sort this out for you, then there are ISPs who will. ;)
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burakkucat

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Re: Spectrum and line quality
« Reply #2 on: December 10, 2021, 10:25:45 PM »

The two bit-loading versus sub-carrier index plots look reasonable, to me. Obviously they have been created by a Fritz!Box device and the rather compressed format makes them difficult to (mentally) compare with other circuits' plots.

As an example, I have attached the bit-loading plot for my circuit. Note that it is provisioned using the Openreach 40/10 Mbps product and that I have a synchronisation speed which is, essentially, hitting the upper limit of the provisioned product.
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Edinburgh_lad

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Re: Spectrum and line quality
« Reply #3 on: December 10, 2021, 10:42:49 PM »

Thanks for your response, Weaver

I like the expression 'dripping blood'. I think it also encapsulates the way I feel about the quality of our connection.

In a nutshell: we've had a connection problem since Jan this year. Plusnet Fibre Extra + 80/20, which was capped at 50/10 only 3 months ago. Speeds are 45Mbps downstream and 8Mbps upstream. SNR 7 and 10, respectively, Line length 500-700m (different routers provide different values). Attenuation 20db and 27db, respectively. Huawei cabinet. Fast path. Frequent disconnections. We can have days of stability and then a disconnection. GEA reports from Plusnet highlight 'regular interference observed at weekends, sometimes daily'. Disconnections usually at specific times, for example 12:57am was the most frequent one (I have no idea why 12:57am exactly). Since changing from Draytek/Plusnet to Fritz!box, things have been a bit more stable for the past 6 days, but this could be a coincidence. Plusnet have sent us a brand new Zyxel and even though I've read very good reports about it on here, I can't bring myself to use it.

The issue of our connection has been taken to CEO of Openreach (who responded it was Plusnet's issue), 2nd level support at Plusnet, who say it's Openreach etc. etc. Openreach are aware of a crimping issue (probably water getting into a crimp or something similar), but because it's in a place that is difficult to access, they'll not fix it; neither they'll officially admit it in reports from visits here, but stated it was WiFi or router that was causing disconnections. We've had at least 15 Openreach visits here. I'll spare the details of these visits because I nearly got myself banned on this forum for making derogatory comments about Openreach. (I apologise for that.)

If it's nothing to do with crimping, alternatively there are capacity/interference issues here; it's difficult to tell. We thought it was the neighbour's boiler that introduces noise on the line, but we don't know. I've tried walking up and down the street with the radio and there was some noise coming from one flat (it's upper and lower villas here), but I don't think this radio method is very reliable. You'd probably need a spectrum analyser, though Openreach say they don't think it's a REIN issue.

We don't know who to believe anymore. Unofficially, Openreach mentioned a high resistant fault 'somewhere' (probably that crimp?), even though their machines tell them where it is. They also said there was interference but didn't know what was causing it. Non-local Openreach engineers were surprised that we were even able to continue with the connection, but the local ones insist it's all fine. They changed the cable from the pole to the flat, master socket from MK3 to MK4 etc. Router is connected via a 2m cable to an extension socket (properly wired, no possibility to move the router near the master socket), which is an ADSLNation filter. If connected to the master socket, we have more errors and disconnections, so clearly ADSLNation filter does a slightly better job. 

This issue has been here for years, but we never had to rely so much on the Internet connection. We were previously on ADSL2+ (17Mbps down) and in the summer, the SNR would drop to 3db, whereas in the winter it would reset itself to 9, sometimes 12db. Our Draytek routers (2820n, 2830n, 2762ac) handled the connection to the exchange (Infineon chipset) well, as we would sometimes go 30 days without a disconnection. Since changing to VDSL back in Jan (Broadcom), it's been a different story with the last router (2762ac). Big time. We actually regret getting VDSL, but heyho, you take the service with the hope that it'll make things better.

Plusnet will let us go penalty free, as presumably, they're fed up listening to our complaints. I'm not surprised.

There's quite a lot of traffic going up and down as both of us are working from home. Due to the nature of our jobs (education, public services), we heavily rely on access to the Internet. To give you an estimate of how much we use (MS Teams mainly, an occasional film at weekends): between 10-15GB of data per day, 60-70GB per week, sometimes more. Neighbours have problems (or they say), too, but because nearly all are retired, they'll not bother complaining to their ISPs because they only rely on their Internet for things like browsing M&S (sounds stereotypical, but they told me this themselves when I tried to encourage them to report issues to their ISPs).

Do you mean Zen when you said that there are ISPs that would sort this out?

Thanks.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2021, 11:15:36 PM by Edinburgh_lad »
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Edinburgh_lad

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Re: Spectrum and line quality
« Reply #4 on: December 10, 2021, 10:43:40 PM »

Thanks burakkucat. Yours looks like mine a bit.
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jelv

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Re: Spectrum and line quality
« Reply #5 on: December 10, 2021, 11:22:29 PM »

Do you mean Zen when you said that there are ISPs that would sort this out?

I think he has this in mind: https://www.aa.net.uk/broadband/we-will-fix-your-line/

Quote
Give us a month and we'll sort your problem broadband line or your money back. If you are migrating your service to us, even though you know you have a problem with your broadband line, we'll take on the fault. We'll tackle the problem and get it fixed within one month. If we don't, then you can migrate away, and owe us nothing for your migration to us and your service charges for that month. - A&A

In the past, advice from A&A enabled me to get an ADSL Max on Plusnet issue sorted out as it was a known issue to them when Plusnet hadn't a clue what was wrong.
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j0hn

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Re: Spectrum and line quality
« Reply #6 on: December 11, 2021, 03:21:09 AM »

Disconnections usually at specific times, for example 12:57am was the most frequent one (I have no idea why 12:57am exactly)

It's a maintenance window. Most DSLAM reboots take place around 1am.
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Edinburgh_lad

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Re: Spectrum and line quality
« Reply #7 on: December 11, 2021, 10:39:26 AM »

Thank you all for your responses.

'Dripping blood' stops at certain times - see attached. Does anyone know what this means and what would be potential causes of it?

Thank you.
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Weaver

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Re: Spectrum and line quality
« Reply #8 on: December 11, 2021, 11:50:01 AM »

See https://support.aa.net.uk/CQM_Graphs a web page belonging to AA which is a partner in firebrick.co.uk the people who made the ping monitoring box that you’re using. Note that that page shows graphs that are much more detailed than the ones available to you unfortunately, as the full pictures are only for people who have Firebrick monitoring boxes on their lines at their ISP.

Dripping blood means that the ping box at thinkbroadband sent an ICMP "ping" (ICMP echo request) to test the link but no reply was received. This is because either the packet going out or the reply coming back was either intentionally dropped or else it was corrupted. A packet can be dropped if (1) there is no space for it in a router because of congestion ie too much traffic overloading a link, so senders are trying to go too fast. Also (2) a packet might have become corrupted in transit on a bad copper line and so a receiving router or modem decides to drop the packet because it is noticeably corrupted. If there is too much traffic (tx/rx flat out) at the current time, then the cause of dripping blood is congestion. Otherwise if there is not flat-out data transmission but there is dripping blood at the current time then the cause is pretty much bound to be corruption of data due to either a bad line or a modem going too fast. Restart the modem and that should slow the modem down and fix the problem, possibly only temporarily. If that fix doesn’t last long, then your line needs fixing. Luckily we have aa.net.uk who will fix our lines and will give you the full pretty CQM pictures so that they and you can completely check that all is well at all times.

A good test would be to note the time, then do a flat-out download and a flat-out upload either one after another or both at the same time, run the transfers for a long time, and see what the dripping blood looks like. Then again note the time and make sure that everything is quiet for a long time: no updates, no other users, no background processes doing anything, just make sure there’s zero traffic for a while. Then check for dripping again; if there is any that says to me corruption and a bad line.

If Plusnet won’t sort you out then go to Andrews and Arnold as pointed out by jelv earlier. I would seriously think about getting an additional line so you have two lines and then dump the bad one - this has worked for me with faults that are just impossible to fix. This obviously wastes some money, but might be the road to swift happiness zero aggravation - it’s a plan B. Mention it to AA if you talk to them.
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Edinburgh_lad

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Re: Spectrum and line quality
« Reply #9 on: December 11, 2021, 12:19:21 PM »

This is very helpful @Weaver

We've considered A&A recently (I've been reading this forum for a while now), but what puts me off them is the limited broadband and whether or not they'll simply increase SNR to compensate for the problems. Finally, they don't show as available in my area if I use uSwitch etc to check.

I've thought about getting another line, but as far as I was told by one Openreach engineer, the cable is at capacity issues when he swapped pairs for us before. So, my worry is that the new pair will be the old one that was even worse.

On the other hand, our neighbour just joined our pole (apologies for this metaphor) and he has no issues, but as I said before, most people around here just use the Internet for browsing, which our connection is fine for, too.

What I don't know if Openreach have better/worse pairs depending on whether the ISP is budget/premium.

The major issue here is not knowing: Openreach copy and paste the same message, regardless of whether they entered the property or not. It's as if the case was being shut down from above. if I'd known that the issue is with Openreach's cabling, I'd stop spending so much money on testing new routers etc. and as some of you know this yourselves, one can become obsessed with stats...

Frankly, it's a ridiculous situation. 
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jelv

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Re: Spectrum and line quality
« Reply #10 on: December 11, 2021, 12:53:37 PM »

You can get your own Firebrick monitoring at https://f8lure.mouselike.org/auth.asp which can also be shared.

Here's mine:
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j0hn

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Re: Spectrum and line quality
« Reply #11 on: December 11, 2021, 12:57:14 PM »

Note that that page shows graphs that are much more detailed than the ones available to you unfortunately, as the full pictures are only for people who have Firebrick monitoring boxes on their lines at their ISP.

I think they show the exact same ping/latency info. It's just the throughput info that isn't on the TBB BQM.

I much prefer the layout of the TBB BQM compared to AA's CQM. It's easier to follow for my eyes.

The TTB BQM also comes from a Firebrick ping box (an FB6000).
« Last Edit: December 11, 2021, 04:31:14 PM by j0hn »
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j0hn

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Re: Spectrum and line quality
« Reply #12 on: December 11, 2021, 01:07:49 PM »

This is very helpful @Weaver

We've considered A&A recently (I've been reading this forum for a while now), but what puts me off them is the limited broadband and whether or not they'll simply increase SNR to compensate for the problems. Finally, they don't show as available in my area if I use uSwitch etc to check.

Individual providers have no ability to touch the SNRM targets on Openreach FTTC.
Actually they can't change anything DLM related at all. It's all controlled by the Openreach DLM which is 100% hands off/automated.
The most an ISP can do is view the DLM profile and ask for it to be reset.

AAISP are also available nationwide. They use BT Wholesale and Talktalk Business for backhaul.
BT Wholesale are available everywhere. I think Talktalk are at every GEA Head-End exchange so should pretty much be nationwide also.
This allows you to choose AAISP and pick either backhaul carrier. They allow you to change this whenever you like.

Uswitch (and most other comparison sites) only show affiliate ISP's. If an ISP isn't willing to pay commission for signups that happen through the comparison site they generally don't get listed.

AAISP have increased their tariffs recently. They are a great ISP. Just too pricey for my liking.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2021, 01:10:03 PM by j0hn »
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Edinburgh_lad

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Re: Spectrum and line quality
« Reply #13 on: December 11, 2021, 01:54:05 PM »

Luckily we have aa.net.uk who will fix our lines and will give you the full pretty CQM pictures so that they and you can completely check that all is well at all times.

Hope they pay you commission, Weaver, as you're very convincing  ;D
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Weaver

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Re: Spectrum and line quality
« Reply #14 on: December 11, 2021, 05:53:50 PM »

I’m still waiting for my cheque! ;) And it has been over eleven years.

You know what your priorities are.

The dripping blood will be causing slowness because corrupted or otherwise lost packets need to be resent, and that slows the whole process down. If SNRM is increased then it is done to prevent the packet corruption, get rid of the dripping blood and increase speed by not having all the retransmissions due to corrupt packets, although this is offset by reduced sync rate. SNRM is increased because it is necessary. You need to be aware that sync speed is not user data/payload transfer speed; overheads of various kinds and retransmissions due to corruption all reduce the user data transfer rate.

The mouselike service is excellent - I found out about it on this forum.

Here’s a picture of my AA CQM graphs for my three ADSL2 lines:



At 04:00 and ~16:35 there are flat-out (I think) uploads, which look like iPads backing themselves up to Apple’s iCloud network storage. At 00:35 I can see a non-flat-rate downstream transfer which looks like Netflix fixed-rate live streaming. Not TCP. At 18:40 and around 19:10 on line #2 we can see some tiny specks of dripping blood; that’s a problem with line #2 which I’m working on. At 18:40 there are similar tiny flecks of dripping blood on the third line; this is a problem and I think it’s to do with that line going too fast. At 10:00 there is a purple and red spike; this is me rebooting modem #2.

These graphs are much more cluttered than the ping ones you’re used to as they show user data transfers in both directions as well as latency. The graphs can be split apart into individual components to make things clearer to read.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2021, 07:01:21 PM by Weaver »
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