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Author Topic: Fibre. What lengths would you go to?  (Read 5317 times)

Circles

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Fibre. What lengths would you go to?
« on: May 27, 2016, 03:50:57 AM »

My local cabinet's (LCTOD P4) fibre upgrade date has been pushed back for years now (Currently March 17). The lack of decent internet speed (1-5Mbps) is destroying my life and business. My tech ability and knowledge on how the system works is somewhat limited so I'm struggling to find answers to questions. I'm hoping someone on here might take pity and guide me.

My closest cabinet, P19 is 0.2miles away and was fibre enabled with the BDUK rural roll out and is currently only 20-30% full. The cabinet I'm connected to (P4), NOT fibre enabled, is 0.5 Miles away. Both these cabinets are 3km + from, LCTOD, my local exchange.

1. I recently saw a page on the BT Wholesale site that suggested my postcode is in a split area...does anyone have any further information about this? Did BDUK get to pick which postcodes were connected to their cabinets...who wrote the rule book on postcode allocation in the first place, can I request this under freedom of information?

2.Is there about to be a deregulation of the rural BDUK cabinets? Would that result in my being eligible to connect to a nearby BDUK cabinet?

3.Is it now hypothetically possible for a group of neighbours to set up a rudimentary ISP and lease Bt's infrastructure in my area (LCTOD)?

4.How can I find out how many free slots my old-style cabinet has...I've downloaded the OFCOM postcode data, is this an accurate tool? What would happen if my neighbours and I bought out all the free slots in our old-style cabinet?

5.Is the data on who owns what infrastructure available in a database such as RIPE, or does BT hold enough to stop me building a detailed virtual map of my cabinet, the exchange and what runs between it?

6. I've noticed BT publishes costings and data on how to complete your own cost benefit type analysis for your cabinet (obviously not aimed at the likes of me). I would assume that a very public crowdfunding project used to raise these funds would probably be the most effective way of bringing that cabinet date forward? Anyone had luck getting their date moved forwards? Any luck with MP's, regional directors, press etc? Anyone used any charities or other government funds/grants to get funding for a cabinet upgrade...for example. Whats to stop essential infrastructure development, in a flooded area, coming out of a flood grant which covers essential infrastructure? Would it be faster to have a completely new cabinet installed as a 'new development'? Which bits of red tape will cause me the most delays and headaches?

I'm rather hoping someone will tell me there is a straightforward solution I don't know about

..any advice will be greatly appreciated
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loonylion

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Re: Fibre. What lengths would you go to?
« Reply #1 on: May 27, 2016, 11:24:38 AM »

I know a couple of cabs in my village are being upgraded after a group of the people connected to them offered to pay BT the full price to fibre enable them. Think it was like 80k per cab.
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Chrysalis

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Re: Fibre. What lengths would you go to?
« Reply #2 on: May 27, 2016, 11:44:20 AM »

funny isnt it, I bet those same people have been paying the bare min each month like tenner a month, but suddenly they got 80k to enable a cab :)
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loonylion

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Re: Fibre. What lengths would you go to?
« Reply #3 on: May 27, 2016, 11:52:20 AM »

funny isnt it, I bet those same people have been paying the bare min each month like tenner a month, but suddenly they got 80k to enable a cab :)

there was a village wide fundraising campaign in the village newsletter for several months. All that was available previously was <3mbit adsl.
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Black Sheep

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Re: Fibre. What lengths would you go to?
« Reply #4 on: May 27, 2016, 12:26:42 PM »

Although I can't offer up anything to help your predicament, I can sympathise with you as I know your area well ........., in fact I've just been there this morning.

The issue we face as engineers with situations like this, is the EU asking why can't we be connected to the other Cab that's FTTC enabled ?? It really isn't anywhere near as simple to perform this task as it is to ask, and there have to be boundaries or it would soon become untenable.

The boundaries that are there state that broadband is a 'Legacy product', which basically means the cable you are on, is the cable you are on ....... and re-arranging the infrastructure to suit is quite simply a no-no.

Like I say, I do feel for you as not only is PCP19 fibre enabled, PCP14 (Just past entrance to Bobbin Mill Close off the main road to Burnley) is also fibre enabled. I have no clue at all as to how individual Cabs are chosen to be made 'live'.
The only thing I was once told a few years ago by a planner, was that the BT on-line 'Expression of interest' form played quite a part in the decision making ?? I can't corroborate this but it would make sense.

Maybe get some local support in filling this on-line form in, it's not contractually binding it just shows there's a large interest in upgrading to the FTTC product. Good luck, and take solace in the fact that you live near to the pub that does the best mixed-grill in the world ...... the Glen View Inn.  ;) :)
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j0hn

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Re: Fibre. What lengths would you go to?
« Reply #5 on: May 27, 2016, 05:24:02 PM »

if your cabinet is due to go live in March 17 then waiting is your best bet. a new housing estate about 1 mile from me recently got coverage in the local paper about sub 2mb adsl, trying to get the developer to pay to upgrade their cabinet.
Taylor Wimpey just agreed last week to pay for the cost of a cabinet after discussions with Openreach. That's been given an estimate of between May - July 2017 to go live.
So even if you managed to fund your own upgrade, chances are it wouldn't be live until after your current cabinet goes live. Getting Openreach to switch you cabinets is also a no no. My neighbours lines run into my nearest cabinet, and the very next property (mine) runs right past that cabinet another 400m to the next cabinet. My line runs through a duct that passes 3m from a live fibre cabinet, and I had to wait 18 months for my cabinet to go live. No amount of trying would get my line plugged into the closer, half empty, fibre cabinet.
Count yourself semi fortunate, some don't even have a go live date, some probably won't ever.
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WWWombat

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Re: Fibre. What lengths would you go to?
« Reply #6 on: May 27, 2016, 05:38:44 PM »

Ironic too that every single cabinet on the exchange is down for upgrade, which is something of an achievement, all by itself.

The BDUK phase 1 cabinets have already been upgraded, and the sole cabinet being upgraded by phase 2 is in the planning phase. That leaves 3 cabinets which aren't so advanced - yet all 3 were originally in the commercial upgrade from 2013.

As the fibre spine obviously goes further up the valley, there must be something else holding this particular cabinet up. A power issue is most likely, a lack of street space is next, and a lack of underground space for the ducts and cables is next. Using the BT checker shows a street-side DSLAM in postcode OL14 8JF (lucky check), suggesting that the cab has already been placed.

Have you asked the Superfast West Yorkshire for any information?

1. I recently saw a page on the BT Wholesale site that suggested my postcode is in a split area...does anyone have any further information about this? Did BDUK get to pick which postcodes were connected to their cabinets...who wrote the rule book on postcode allocation in the first place, can I request this under freedom of information?

Postcodes are an invention by the post office to aid their delivery automation, and have nothing whatsoever to do with telephony cables in the street - or the choices made over the past 50+ years about how they should be grouped and bundled together. Postcodes can be changed, as the post office alters delivery methods, but those cables in the street don't change.

However, postcodes have a couple of good features: every property has one, and they are easy to use to create maps.

Thus BDUK made use of these features in helping to decide which areas were valid for an upgrade, and helping to show plans. But the projects know that postcode boundaries don't align to telecoms boundaries. The "intervention areas" defined in phase 1 could lack flexibility. Phase 2 rules allow a bit more flexibility.

However, all that is moot. Your cabinet is down to be done commercially, so BDUK doesn't matter.

2.Is there about to be a deregulation of the rural BDUK cabinets? Would that result in my being eligible to connect to a nearby BDUK cabinet?

Deregulation in what way?

I don't know of anything, and can't imagine much that would help you change cabinet.

Ofcom appear to be making it easier for altnets to use BT's existing ducts and poles to provide an alternative service. But I'm not sure this will help you - as you will need a cable that traverses the current ducts in a way that isn't intended by BT. I don't know if BT could actually stop an altnet from running cables this way, but I suspect it would cost more to do.

3.Is it now hypothetically possible for a group of neighbours to set up a rudimentary ISP and lease Bt's infrastructure in my area (LCTOD)?

Yes. I imagine "in my area" means "on cab 4"; if so, you might need to consider a "sub-loop unbundling" option, where you can install your own FTTC cabinet. That solves your access network problem. You'd just need to do everything else an ISP does to get service out to the internet ... starting with a fibre connection back from your new cabinet.

Rutland Telecom did this years ago in Rutland, and I believe Callflow are doing this as part of a few BDUK projects.

4.How can I find out how many free slots my old-style cabinet has...I've downloaded the OFCOM postcode data, is this an accurate tool? What would happen if my neighbours and I bought out all the free slots in our old-style cabinet?

I don't think the Ofcom data will tell you anything about the remaining capacity back to the exchange.

Even if you did buy up all the remaining capacity, what do you hope for next? To order one more line that comes from the other cabinet? I suspect BT would be at liberty to refuse, as the USO that forces BT to supply lines only works for the first line, to a residential property. And if the accepted, it might be expensive.

5.Is the data on who owns what infrastructure available in a database such as RIPE, or does BT hold enough to stop me building a detailed virtual map of my cabinet, the exchange and what runs between it?

There is no public database; BT own that themselves.

Ofcom requires BT to provide a "PIA" product that allows altnets to make use of their poles and ducts for providing service - but only a limited set of services. One aspect of providing access is that an altnet can ask for information about what is available ... but BT charges to put that information together, and to survey the physical status. If poles or ducts are full, then I'm not sure there is any requirement on BT to install spare capacity.

6. I've noticed BT publishes costings and data on how to complete your own cost benefit type analysis for your cabinet (obviously not aimed at the likes of me).

Have they? BT have fought really hard to keep all this kind of thing under NDA, so the competition can't figure such stuff out.

I would assume that a very public crowdfunding project used to raise these funds would probably be the most effective way of bringing that cabinet date forward? Anyone had luck getting their date moved forwards? Any luck with MP's, regional directors, press etc? Anyone used any charities or other government funds/grants to get funding for a cabinet upgrade...for example. Whats to stop essential infrastructure development, in a flooded area, coming out of a flood grant which covers essential infrastructure? Would it be faster to have a completely new cabinet installed as a 'new development'?

Obviously there are ways for communities to fund an upgrade to their cabinet: http://www.communityfibre.bt.com/
I'm not sure I've seen anyone try to use this process to pay BT to pay more attention to something they were going to do anyway.

There have certainly been campaigns to get cabinets included - and they tend to do better by being a single organised effort, with local councillors and councils involved, and perhaps a prod by an MP too.

I don't see anything working on the "essential infrastructure" route. Right now, the "essentials" stop at a voice connection and dial-up access. The government want to make internet access an "essential" too, covered by a USO, but that's probably at least 2 years away.

Likewise the "new development" route. That only works when you, as the developer, own all the land, and can freely dig in new ducts and chambers to your heart's content.

Which bits of red tape will cause me the most delays and headaches?

The fact that BT have decided to cover this area commercially is the biggest headache. It means they can decide when they will upgrade, and there is little you can do. We have to assume that BT have told BDUK this ... and that stops any state aid from happening - whoever the recipient is.
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Ronski

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Re: Fibre. What lengths would you go to?
« Reply #7 on: May 27, 2016, 07:07:15 PM »

As the fibre spine obviously goes further up the valley, there must be something else holding this particular cabinet up. A power issue is most likely, a lack of street space is next, and a lack of underground space for the ducts and cables is next. Using the BT checker shows a street-side DSLAM in postcode OL14 8JF (lucky check), suggesting that the cab has already been placed.

I don't think it does mean that it's been placed (it would be worth looking around in case it has though), just that it's been planned. I'm sure when I mapped the cabinets in our local area I found DSLAM's listed prior to them having been installed.
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niemand

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Re: Fibre. What lengths would you go to?
« Reply #8 on: May 27, 2016, 07:42:01 PM »

The presence of DSLAMs in the checker definitely doesn't indicate anything other than that they are planned. A previous address had a DSLAM on the checker more than 2 years before it was actually placed due to delays with the deployment.
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Circles

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Re: Fibre. What lengths would you go to?
« Reply #9 on: May 27, 2016, 10:05:24 PM »

Many thanks for all the replies.

Unless the new DSLAM is hiding I'm certain it's not there. I will double check tomorrow though as the actual postcode for cabinet P4 is OL14 8JE, the corner of Knotts Road and Burnley Road (A646). Perhaps it needed re-positioning. I requested the original feasibility report for my cabinet years ago, I didn't get much information other than it was due to infrastructure. Maybe it is an issue with the electrical supply, or similar as @WWWombat suggested. I have tried Superfast West Yorkshire in the past but they weren't overly useful, the guys over at Leeds combined Authortiy were very helpful but didn't seem to have access to much information.

Looking at the location of the remaining 3 cabinets to be upgraded in my exchange area, and cross referencing the postcodes they serve with Ofcoms data, the overriding common factor in these areas is the low percentage of houses with existing fixed broadband lines. I think @Blacksheep is right, the online tool for registering an interest in fibre carries a lot of influence. I did read that BT only needed 13 or so fibre connections to make upgrading their cabinets feasible...it'sn somewhat depressing that I don't have 13 neighbours interested! My brother suggested at stage 1, I pin a huge banner to my house asking neighbours to register their interest in fibre. Wish I'd taken his advice as I might not be here now.

My own success with changing PCP cabinet allocation:

My experience clearly bucks the trend. I own a property two doors up that I rent out, this property was allocated to a fibre enabled cabinet miles away, no other houses in the locality are connected to this cabinet. I tried to 'pinch' this line myself at a later date by having a secondary line put into my house as soon as the tenants moved out, hoping i'd be given their old line. The gamble didn't pay off and a different neighbour has this line now. I was there when the new connection to this far away fibre cabinet was made...it did involved several phone calls to people high up at Sky, and half a days work for an engineer...the property hadn't had a phone line before and the angle was all wrong from the existing pole connection, so a new, underground connection was made from the nearby access point in the road (no digging needed), the engineer used the space alongside the water supply to bring the cable from the road to the exterior brickwork. I wonder what made that case so special? Did I just get lucky? If an already full PCP doesn't 'bounce' connections to a new cabinet, what else does? I presume all new connections/second lines fall outside of the strict 'legacy' umbrella, and only new connections are where loop holes exist? @blacksheep, I'd be interested to hear your thoughts, especially with your local knowledge...and I shall try that mixed grill this weekend, thanks  :) 


There is an access point in the main road along my properties boundary, it's the main fibre spine that runs up the main road serving the cabinets further away from the exchange (and my property i discussed above). If I insisted a new connection was made at my home, in a position on the building where it appears impossible to connect to any pole in the locality (this is possible, and my house is surrounded by trees to add to the challenge) could that work? Sorry I must sound like a broken record

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WWWombat

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Re: Fibre. What lengths would you go to?
« Reply #10 on: May 28, 2016, 12:41:28 PM »

Ah - that explains why you are attempting to come up with weird and wacky solutions - in order to get BT to replicate some previous behaviour.

The thing with the 3 remaining cabinets is this: they have already passed BT's criteria for inclusion commercially. If low takeup of ADSL was an issue, the cabinets would never have been chosen - or at least deferred into a BDUK project.

I still think your best approach, at first, is to try to find out why the cabinet hasn't been done in the last 3 years, and start action to get that sorted. If the issue is that the cabinet has become too expensive, then you probably need BT and SFWY to reach an agreement about whether it is ever going to be done commercially or whether it should be included in the BDUK plans.

One example in North Yorkshire: 3 cabinets in Skipton were marked commercial, but were going to be left out because it was going to cost £90,000 to upgrade the electricity supply for them; but, because the BDUK area had already been agreed, they'd have been left out of that too. Projects have learnt from that, and now include "at risk" cabinets in their newer intervention areas, so they can upgrade if needed. It is probably important for SFWY to understand whether this cabinet is at risk for their future planning - so it might be wise for you to push them a little.

Failing that, rather than devising a scheme that might, or might not, get Openreach to install a line as you want it, you might be better to devise a wireless piggy-back to a property that is on one of the upgraded cabinets. Line of sight will be the issue there, but at least it will be all under your own control.

There is an access point in the main road along my properties boundary, it's the main fibre spine that runs up the main road serving the cabinets further away from the exchange (and my property i discussed above). If I insisted a new connection was made at my home, in a position on the building where it appears impossible to connect to any pole in the locality (this is possible, and my house is surrounded by trees to add to the challenge) could that work? Sorry I must sound like a broken record

They'd probably still run the cable to the pole, from a suitable part of the property, then run the cable sideways to where you want it positioned, or insist on alternative positioning.
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Black Sheep

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Re: Fibre. What lengths would you go to?
« Reply #11 on: May 28, 2016, 01:20:40 PM »

Hi circles.

I'll try and answer your question to me, but in a generic sense rather than your individual circumstances.

LPR (Line Plant Re-arrangement) in order to obtain FTTC is almost non-existent these days. At least on the patches I work that is. Once upon a time, there were instances of engineers re-routing the feed wire to a different telegraph pole that would be fed off a Cab that had FTTC activated ....... the knock-on effect of this saw the very highest tier of management stop this practice completely.

Ordering a 2nd line ?? As Wombat points out, IF there is spare cable capacity to both the PCP and the DP (Telegraph Pole), then we would have to provide your 2nd line from these points of intervention. If that means running cables through the house, upstairs to downstairs, whatever .... then we would do so.

Your hope would be that the DP (Rather than the Cab) is full, as providing another 'pair' to the Cab is far far easier than providing another cable to the DP. If this was the situation, then ROSE (Our automatic routing tool) would flag a plant shortage and a task would be raised for a Survey Officer to attend site and come up with a solution.
Trees, alas, aren't deemed a major obstacle, we just either lightly prune ourselves if we can do safely, or employ the expertise of a local tree surgeon.

Not want you want to hear I suppose, but that is policy as I know it to be.  :)
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tickmike

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Re: Fibre. What lengths would you go to?
« Reply #12 on: May 28, 2016, 02:06:56 PM »

Re.."I own a property two doors up that I rent out, this property was allocated to a fibre enabled cabinet "
You just need a 'Radio' link between the two houses, then you can use that one.

http://www.solwise.co.uk/wireless-outdoor-bridging.htm




Edit .. wrong link  :-[
« Last Edit: May 28, 2016, 03:53:33 PM by tickmike »
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I have a set of 6 fixed IP's From  Eclipse  isp.BT ADSL2(G992.3) line>HG612 as a Modem, Bridge, WAN Not Bound to LAN1 or 2 + Also have FTTP (G.984) No One isp Fixed IP >Dual WAN pfSense (Hardware Firewall and routing).> Two WAN's, Ethernet LAN, DMZ LAN, Zyxel GS1100-24 Switch.

WWWombat

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Re: Fibre. What lengths would you go to?
« Reply #13 on: May 28, 2016, 02:40:13 PM »

I don't think 3G antenna will help much.

I'd probably suggest two of these for a tight point-to-point link:
https://www.ubnt.com/airmax/nanobeam-ac/
but these can be cheaper
https://www.ubnt.com/airmax/litebeam-ac/

If a few neighbours want to share, one of these might be needed at the fibre end
https://www.ubnt.com/airmax/litebeam-ac-ap/

I'd also started to look at these, but they're not very available in the UK yet
https://www.ligowave.com/products/dlb-ECHO-5
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tickmike

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Re: Fibre. What lengths would you go to?
« Reply #14 on: May 28, 2016, 03:55:18 PM »

I don't think 3G antenna will help much.


Oop's that was the wrong link  :-[ That was something else I was looking at .
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I have a set of 6 fixed IP's From  Eclipse  isp.BT ADSL2(G992.3) line>HG612 as a Modem, Bridge, WAN Not Bound to LAN1 or 2 + Also have FTTP (G.984) No One isp Fixed IP >Dual WAN pfSense (Hardware Firewall and routing).> Two WAN's, Ethernet LAN, DMZ LAN, Zyxel GS1100-24 Switch.
 

anything