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Author Topic: William Grimsley's Line - After DLM Reset  (Read 35877 times)

les-70

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Re: William Grimsley's Line - After DLM Reset
« Reply #135 on: April 27, 2016, 09:21:01 AM »

  I hope the DLM on his line will relent and go to G.inp.  That with a speed increase relative to interleaving and the ping improvement may cheer him up. Currently it is my impression that we don't quiet know how the DLM operates with the addition of G.inp.
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Chrysalis

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Re: William Grimsley's Line - After DLM Reset
« Reply #136 on: April 27, 2016, 10:39:08 AM »

it does indeed seem DLM behaviour has changed lately in regards to g.inp which might be why what was predicted did not happen.
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kitz

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Re: William Grimsley's Line - After DLM Reset
« Reply #137 on: April 27, 2016, 11:16:53 AM »

@lcl00

My comment wasn't aimed at you lcl00, but rather the post I was making. :)

@chrys

I commented last week

There is one thing now that I am uncertain about and that is what DLM will do next.   
In theory it should apply g.inp,   but because its on open profile..  Im not sure.  :(

My concern was how soon lines from an open profile may either have g.inp applied first... or go to Interleaved like Ian said was the new default. 
... or even in view of the fact that g.inp at the time appeared to be suspended for some lines,  I was aware of the situation last year whereby Openreach stopped applying g.inp to reset lines until they had done all the other mopping up.

We dont have sufficient evidence yet to say either way what is happening :/
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aesmith

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Re: William Grimsley's Line - After DLM Reset
« Reply #138 on: April 27, 2016, 11:21:39 AM »

His upstream noise margin is all over the place.  Is that right for FTTC? 
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mlmclaren

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Re: William Grimsley's Line - After DLM Reset
« Reply #139 on: April 27, 2016, 11:29:30 AM »

His upstream noise margin is all over the place.  Is that right for FTTC?

Yeah I just checked that, 4.7dB at the moment, doesn't look good... I wonder if he's uploading though???

When I was downloading stuff before my SNR would drop by around .5dB... that was before my line ended up impacted by issues, I'll download something from Steam and see how mine copes it copes, then propbably repeat by doing an upload...
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mlmclaren

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Re: William Grimsley's Line - After DLM Reset
« Reply #140 on: April 27, 2016, 12:30:42 PM »

When I was downloading stuff before my SNR would drop by around .5dB... that was before my line ended up impacted by issues, I'll download something from Steam and see how mine copes, then propbably repeat by doing an upload...

Well finished my DS test and it seems that those issues mentioned above have now disspeared since... I should think so too based on my recent capabilty loss  ::)

Did a couple of small uploads and that don't seem to have shown any blips on my SNR.

Might be worth William trying to get Openreach out again, though he is gonna have to prove theres an issue, which currently might be too early to say...

Based on my line, it seems to have stablised itself over the last cpuple of days where it was very choppy (similar to Williams minus the near 2db SNR drops) so maybe we need to wait for things to get themselves sorted and the line get configured properly by DLM...

I do wonder why Openreach engineer 'Glen' decided to push the line right the way back to be a newbie though, both my engineers didn't do that, though both my engineers did say they couldn't keep up with all the changes that keep being made to DLM and that they where barely notified of any changes.

EDIT: Maybe 'Glen' reset the line to fast path as the BT test equipment they use isn't G.INP capable and he wanted to get raw results and sync rates from the line.
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kitz

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Re: William Grimsley's Line - After DLM Reset
« Reply #141 on: April 27, 2016, 12:54:40 PM »

No - as I mentioned a couple of weeks ago, it appears there may be 2 types of DLM reset.

In theory a DLM reset should trigger Interleaving by default now if the line is g.inp compatible.   This is what we now see for the vast majority of cases.

However, there have been just 2 recorded instances (Dave & Williams - both within the past couple of weeks)  whereby a full reset has been undertaken that has taken the line back to Open Profile as if the line is brand spanking new.     

Open profile has nothing on at all - its wide open.  But within 48 hrs DLM should apply some profile. 
Williams was wide open and that is how I knew that there was no way g.inp could make any further speed improvements.   
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NewtronStar

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Re: William Grimsley's Line - After DLM Reset
« Reply #142 on: April 27, 2016, 01:19:00 PM »

I take it most people are still getting G.INP applied back on to there lines after a DLM reset on Huawies


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« Last Edit: April 27, 2016, 02:53:16 PM by kitz »
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licquorice

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Re: William Grimsley's Line - After DLM Reset
« Reply #143 on: April 27, 2016, 01:57:32 PM »

Prior to upgrading, my line was banded at 35M with G.Inp applied. After my reset due to upgrading to 55/10, my line was still banded at 35 but with interleaving. Interleaving was removed after a few days, no G.Inp applied  to date. Don't quite understand why it wasn't removed when I was first banded before the upgrade as I don't appear to need it currently.
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digitalnemesis

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Re: William Grimsley's Line - After DLM Reset
« Reply #144 on: April 27, 2016, 02:47:03 PM »

Wait, so when you upgraded from 40/10 to 55/10 you automatically had a DLM reset with the same ISP?


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« Last Edit: April 27, 2016, 02:51:30 PM by kitz »
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licquorice

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Re: William Grimsley's Line - After DLM Reset
« Reply #145 on: April 27, 2016, 02:48:35 PM »

Yes, but not a full reset, it didn't remove the banding.
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kitz

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Re: William Grimsley's Line - After DLM Reset
« Reply #146 on: April 27, 2016, 02:50:25 PM »

I'm not trying to be funny.   I'm just trying to be realistic.

If William had been uploading for longer we would know what would be normal for his line.
Whilst it is apparent that his line is noisy.  We must bear in mind that 'Glen' already did line checks and confirmed the line was ok and of good quality.

BT expects variance in SNRmargin - in fact DSL technology is built to expect variance and anything up to 3dB is considered 'normal'.
It is precisely why things like FEC, Interleaving, INP and now G.INP was invented - to protect against this noise.
Unless there is a voice affecting fault then what can BT do?

I suspect it may be low level HR fault, which may in time develop into something more serious, but in the meantime HR faults are extremely difficult to track down.  FACT.

Look at my stats below - Note the variance of 24dB on the upstream.  I had about a dozen visits by about 8 different engineers and none of them could track it down until voice was impacted extremely badly.  The line was dropping out totally each time the phone rang and I had large amount of tones in the D1 band where there was hardly any bit loading.

My upstream got banded at 10Mbps at one point and you can see from the graph that my upstream attainable was varying between 37Mbps to 10Mbps. BT really dont give a rats bottom about upstream.  You can see that my downstream SNRm was also dropping from 12dB to 0dB when the phone rang.
It took me 2 months to get that fixed and I found it quite stressful, so what is trying to get a 2dB variance fixed going to do for William.

If William hadnt messed with his line & DLM to get himself banded, then g.inp would still be on that line taking care of the errors and he wouldnt be any the wiser.
Now that he has interleaving, that now puts him ILQ green.  ILQ green is good.  ILQ amber is OK.   

What REALLY concerns me, is that one of the visiting engineers implied I was getting hooked up on line stats, because I showed him the graphs below...  so in all honesty what has William got to go on, other than a 2dB variance..  and how far is that going to get him when DLM is now ILQ green.

It also concerns me that some BT boffins are aware of how easy it is to get hooked on line stats and that some will go into acute state of worry for what is normal parameters.     Ringing any bells?   Is it any wonder why certain ISPs lock their routers so that such info unnecessarily panics their users,  Ive seen William get anxious at a 0.1dB change. 

If I thought for one minute there was an audible voice fault, then I would be backing him all the way...  but without that what are the realistic chances of BT being able to track it down without weeks of ping-pong.
The sad fact is, if there is a small HR fault as I suspect there may be, we should know by now that it is exceedingly hard to fix.
... and here are us sat waiting for a train crash to occur.

Yes there does appear to be a problem with banding, and I will try and get some further clarification on this...  but the fact remains if William hadnt messed then g.inp would still be sat there doing its thing keeping his line stable.

The only reason I backed him last week is trying to get rid of the banding by getting a reset.   So the banding has gone, but his line is still now with interleaving in a slightly better state than it was when he first got the upgrade. As he's now syncing at 37.5 Mbps.

G.INP needs to get back on that line, perhaps in time it will.   Im not saying when it will be though, because thats where my doubts lay.   We've seen some on here say it's taken about 5 days. 


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ETA
Oops I forgot to add the stats.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2016, 03:15:27 PM by kitz »
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kitz

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Re: William Grimsley's Line - After DLM Reset
« Reply #147 on: April 27, 2016, 02:52:32 PM »

@NS.   Not sure - havent seen any examples.
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atkinsong

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Re: William Grimsley's Line - After DLM Reset
« Reply #148 on: April 27, 2016, 03:06:22 PM »

In addition to all the previous comments re difficulty in getting BT to investigate, it should be remembered that when William posted the DSL Checker results for his line (on the BT Community Forums) it gave a CLEAN estimate of 34.2 to 25 down, and 7.4 to 5.6 up!
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kitz

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Re: William Grimsley's Line - After DLM Reset
« Reply #149 on: April 27, 2016, 03:10:57 PM »

Yes good point.  :(
Even though I dont much agree with the use of figures in the DSL checker, they are there for a reason.
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