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Author Topic: Line Dead?  (Read 33653 times)

ejs

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Re: Line Dead?
« Reply #105 on: March 19, 2016, 10:57:09 AM »

What would an engineer visit do? I thought that if they don't make any changes to the BT network, they won't reset the DLM. So you'd possibly pay £129.99 for nothing (no fault found).

Isn't your other option to upgrade to an 80/20 service, even if you could at best only get slightly over 40Mb?

Your 35/8 speeds are still better than what many people can get on FTTC.
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William Grimsley

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Re: Line Dead?
« Reply #106 on: March 19, 2016, 10:58:39 AM »

We know an engineer personally, so he would not charge us for anything even if there was no fault found.

Why would we upgrade to an 80/20 service? Isn't that a bit stupid? We wouldn't get any faster than what we get now...  ::)

All I am saying, is that there's a problem somewhere.
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d2d4j

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Re: Line Dead?
« Reply #107 on: March 19, 2016, 11:14:40 AM »

Hi

The only problem that exists is you, wanting to test the dlam against all advice not too

I thought you said previously it was not an issue been on 35 ds

You keep changing your mind as become repetitive, asking the same question

Many thanks

John
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ejs

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Re: Line Dead?
« Reply #108 on: March 19, 2016, 11:32:00 AM »

Why would we upgrade to an 80/20 service? Isn't that a bit stupid? We wouldn't get any faster than what we get now...  ::)

I thought that before, you are getting the full 40Mb, with the max attainable slightly higher, so you might get 42Mb on a 80/20 service, if you could find an ISP that would let you have it considering your estimated speeds. And I thought switching products resets the DLM.

Well, I suppose it's OK for you if you know an engineer personally, they can just use their laptop or an app on their iPhone/iPad or whatever to do the DLM reset. Tough luck for anyone else who doesn't know an engineer personally. I'm not sure the engineer would be strictly supposed to do that if they weren't visiting in an official capacity organised by your ISP, and of course, if it were an official visit organised by your ISP, you couldn't guarantee which engineer you'd get.
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William Grimsley

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Re: Line Dead?
« Reply #109 on: March 19, 2016, 11:34:28 AM »

Why would we upgrade to an 80/20 service? Isn't that a bit stupid? We wouldn't get any faster than what we get now...  ::)

I thought that before, you are getting the full 40Mb, with the max attainable slightly higher, so you might get 42Mb on a 80/20 service, if you could find an ISP that would let you have it considering your estimated speeds. And I thought switching products resets the DLM.

Well, I suppose it's OK for you if you know an engineer personally, they can just use their laptop or an app on their iPhone/iPad or whatever to do the DLM reset. Tough luck for anyone else who doesn't know an engineer personally. I'm not sure the engineer would be strictly supposed to do that if they weren't visiting in an official capacity organised by your ISP, and of course, if it were an official visit organised by your ISP, you couldn't guarantee which engineer you'd get.

That's a very good point. I don't really want to switch ISP. If the line does not recover to it's original state, then I will consider contacting him. Thanks.
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kitz

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Re: Line Dead?
« Reply #110 on: March 19, 2016, 12:09:34 PM »

Quote
if you know an engineer personally, they can just use their laptop or an app on their iPhone/iPad or whatever to do the DLM reset. Tough luck for anyone else who doesn't know an engineer personally. I'm not sure the engineer would be strictly supposed to do that if they weren't visiting in an official capacity organised by your ISP, and of course, if it were an official visit organised by your ISP, you couldn't guarantee which engineer you'd get.

ejs is correct. 

1) There isn't any way of allocating or requesting a particular engineer to a job.  If a new fault is reported then it just goes into a pool that automatically allocates.   On required visits for same fault you are most likely to be allocated a different engineer.  However I think there is something in place that an engineer who has previously visited for same fault can pick up again if they want.   I know with my HR fault,   I had about half a dozen different engineers, but the one who finally fixed it gave me a number to ring if there was any more problems over the next few days so he could pick up any requested revisit.

2) A reset can only be performed by a visiting engineer if he has found and corrected the fault.   Openreach has a very strict stance on the reset procedure - all DLM resets are logged against the engineer who performed it and routinely checked for abuse.   I'm sure that last year BS said last year or so that a new procedure had been put in place which specifically checked for abuse of DLM resets and that any found could result in disciplinary action for the OR engineer.   :(

3) ejs was actually trying to help when he made the 80/20 suggestion - because that is the only way that we know of whereby a DLM reset could automatically be re-triggered.
A change of product ie 40/10 to 80/20 will cause a reset.   Change of ISP doesn't.
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Dray

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Re: Line Dead?
« Reply #111 on: March 19, 2016, 12:24:34 PM »


A change of product ie 40/10 to 80/20 will cause a reset.   Change of ISP doesn't.

Funny you should say that, because when I migrated I not only had a reset, I was moved to a different port - and that was 80/20 -> 80/20.
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William Grimsley

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Re: Line Dead?
« Reply #112 on: March 19, 2016, 12:28:32 PM »

Quote
if you know an engineer personally, they can just use their laptop or an app on their iPhone/iPad or whatever to do the DLM reset. Tough luck for anyone else who doesn't know an engineer personally. I'm not sure the engineer would be strictly supposed to do that if they weren't visiting in an official capacity organised by your ISP, and of course, if it were an official visit organised by your ISP, you couldn't guarantee which engineer you'd get.

3) ejs was actually trying to help when he made the 80/20 suggestion - because that is the only way that we know of whereby a DLM reset could automatically be re-triggered.
A change of product ie 40/10 to 80/20 will cause a reset.   Change of ISP doesn't.

I am sorry! But, I'm not going to get out a new contract and pay double the money for a DLM reset!
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kitz

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Re: Line Dead?
« Reply #113 on: March 19, 2016, 12:34:13 PM »

All I am saying, is that there's a problem somewhere.

The problem isnt with your line and I cant see any faults.   Your errors are well within the acceptable range.

However the problem is Openreaches tough stance on DLM resets.   IMHO it is a major problem that ISPs cant simply request a DLM reset themselves. 
 
I have no idea why Openreach cant do something about this and why they cant put something in place so that NGA DLM resets can be requested in the same way that they can for 21CN.

I've been sat here for several minutes trying to think of any reason why they cant put something in place and the only thing I can think of is that it may be something to do with equivalence.    With 20/21CN -  DLM is owned by BTwholesale and the ISP makes any requests via BTwholesale because everything is wholesale side.   The LLU providers obviously dont have anything to do with BTw. 
   
DLM is one of those areas where things get a bit blurry between Openreach, BTw and another area of BT and who owns what.   Ofcom regulation ensures that if they cant do something for the LLU ISPs then they aren't allowed to do so for the others.   Im sure though that there must be some way of overcoming this for all.   
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kitz

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Re: Line Dead?
« Reply #114 on: March 19, 2016, 12:37:58 PM »

Funny you should say that, because when I migrated I not only had a reset, I was moved to a different port - and that was 80/20 -> 80/20.

Out of interest would that migration be between BTw based ISP and an LLU ISP?   Changing between BTw based ISPs certainly doesnt appear to trigger a reset.
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Black Sheep

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Re: Line Dead?
« Reply #115 on: March 19, 2016, 12:49:56 PM »

Quote
if you know an engineer personally, they can just use their laptop or an app on their iPhone/iPad or whatever to do the DLM reset. Tough luck for anyone else who doesn't know an engineer personally. I'm not sure the engineer would be strictly supposed to do that if they weren't visiting in an official capacity organised by your ISP, and of course, if it were an official visit organised by your ISP, you couldn't guarantee which engineer you'd get.

ejs is correct. 

1) There isn't any way of allocating or requesting a particular engineer to a job.  If a new fault is reported then it just goes into a pool that automatically allocates.   On required visits for same fault you are most likely to be allocated a different engineer.  However I think there is something in place that an engineer who has previously visited for same fault can pick up again if they want.   I know with my HR fault,   I had about half a dozen different engineers, but the one who finally fixed it gave me a number to ring if there was any more problems over the next few days so he could pick up any requested revisit.

2) A reset can only be performed by a visiting engineer if he has found and corrected the fault.   Openreach has a very strict stance on the reset procedure - all DLM resets are logged against the engineer who performed it and routinely checked for abuse.   I'm sure that last year BS said last year or so that a new procedure had been put in place which specifically checked for abuse of DLM resets and that any found could result in disciplinary action for the OR engineer.   :(

3) ejs was actually trying to help when he made the 80/20 suggestion - because that is the only way that we know of whereby a DLM reset could automatically be re-triggered.
A change of product ie 40/10 to 80/20 will cause a reset.   Change of ISP doesn't.

There is actually a process called 'Named engineer' in place whereby the EU can pay more (I think it's £50) to get a particular engineer out.

Regarding DLM resets. Kitz is bob-on (along with other members inputs) in that we are strictly told not to perform a reset unless a fault is found and rectified. Now this is a grey area for me, as I only yesterday picked up a fault that had seen the EU go from a constant 40Meg down to 1.8Meg. It happened on just one day. After quizzing the EU, he mentioned that the very same day the electric board had been changing out a sub-station opposite his house.

Now all the expected tests passed, the installation was up to par ...... there was nothing to fault if you will. But experience obviously tells you that this was a one-off event and as such I did do a reset and he was back at 40Meg and completely CRC/FEC free on a 15min test.

Point I'm trying to make is we can do a reset whenever we choose, but to just do so nilly-willy may attract the attention of 'Them above'. Quite how well the reset system is monitored, I wouldn't know but in today's BT, there will be somebody sat there collating stats !!!!
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loonylion

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Re: Line Dead?
« Reply #116 on: March 19, 2016, 01:11:23 PM »

I've been banded for over a year despite mydslwebstats being consistently green and my SNR being between 8 and 9. I'm afraid you may just have to live with it.
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gt94sss2

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Re: Line Dead?
« Reply #117 on: March 19, 2016, 03:47:50 PM »

However the problem is Openreaches tough stance on DLM resets.   IMHO it is a major problem that ISPs cant simply request a DLM reset themselves.

Do you know how long ISPs have had this capability on ADSL lines?

I thought it had been for quite a while but note that the September 2015 ISP Forum makes several references to customer control of DLM and a 'DLM Took Self Service Tool' which was being launched/rolled out last Autumn.

« Last Edit: March 19, 2016, 03:52:16 PM by gt94sss2 »
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Dray

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Re: Line Dead?
« Reply #118 on: March 19, 2016, 03:51:32 PM »

Out of interest would that migration be between BTw based ISP and an LLU ISP?   Changing between BTw based ISPs certainly doesnt appear to trigger a reset.
BT -> Sky
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kitz

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Re: Line Dead?
« Reply #119 on: March 19, 2016, 04:32:55 PM »

However the problem is Openreaches tough stance on DLM resets.   IMHO it is a major problem that ISPs cant simply request a DLM reset themselves.

Do you know how long ISPs have had this capability on ADSL lines?

I thought it had been for quite a while but note that the September 2015 ISP Forum makes several references to customer control of DLM and a 'DLM Took Self Service Tool' which was being launched/rolled out last Autumn.

Previously the ISP put in a request to BTw and then they had to wait for BTw to physically do it. 
With the new self service tool the ISP can also directly control and adjust other things such as say the Target SNRm.

I think the main difference is akin to how we can say phone up or raise a ticket with our ISP and ask them to do something, which they then do.   Or like it used to be with BE*  users had direct access to a CP to directly make these changes themselves such as set 3dB margin or turn off interleaving without ever having to speak to anyone first.

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I'm not certain, but from what Weaver, says it sounds like AAISP has taken the new tool one step further and built on it so that their customers themselves also have direct access and change the settings themselves.  Ive never seen what options are available to the EU though other than Weavers mention of what is available to him via 'clueless'.  Im unsure if the options within clueless automatically generates the change with BTw - or if it sends a request to AAISP to make the change.

Somehow I cant ever see BTretail/consumer doing this.   Their average type customer would be changing settings without having a clue what they would be doing and possibly cause more harm :(   
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