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Author Topic: ADSL2+ really?  (Read 6988 times)

ashsa

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ADSL2+ really?
« on: February 20, 2016, 12:01:17 AM »

 Hi All  :)

It starting to feel like my ISP is more confused than I am.

Before Christmas, my father started to bend my ear over the quality of the broadband connection - dropped connection.  So I contacted the ISP and they confirmed the existence of a line fault.  Two engineer visits later and it resulted in a new master socket.  After a bit of reading, I disconnected the line extension, added a NTe5 filtering faceplace and replaced the ISP supplied RJ11 cable - a short 0.5m (maybe a little too short).  The resulting impact of these changes, with the ISP providing their most up to-date wireless router, the line attenuation figure went down. 

With the line fixed, I  looked further into why my father computer was coughing and splutting its way around the internet - jamming up while attempting to load a page.  Changes to the browser, netsh cmd's, optimising the adapter, MTU - essentially everything recommended on this site, yet the issue continued - although much abated.  Once the computer was 'fixed', i.e. I had exhausted all my options, I started looking at the router and discovered the ISP's most up to-date router is awaiting a firmware update, it has a fault that produces a large number of errors.  What this means for my connection the ISP has yet to explain.  So, I switched out the router, replaced it with the old router and download speed increased from 6mbs to 8mbs. 

Looking and learning about the router settings made me think that maybe something in there was slowing things down.  My line is 2.2km, 1.3km long, or perhaps 1.475km depending on who you speak to at the ISP.  Line attenuation figure is 30.7 or 27.9 depending on the router used.  It should sync anywhere between 18000 - 13500 kbps.  The most obvious issue was interleaving.  Interleaving suggests noise on the line and my line was fixed, filtered, on the right channel etc.  So I had it in mind this was the most likely cause of my fathers jittery browsing experience.  Further reading led to the ISP agreeing to make the following changes:

- line profile was changed to 'fast path' (made without my request)
- interleaving decreased from 64 to 1
- SNR margin reduced to 3db (I was happy when it was lowered from 9db to 6db, 3db was not my idea)

The first change really didn't do much, the second moved things along, the third bingo!  That said, I was surprised by the approach taken by the ISP - I expected the changes to be made progressively, 64,32,16 etc.  But no.  Once I bent their ear for long enough, a change would be made.  I tried asked about the state of the DLM - ILQ, but no answer. so bending their ear appears to be the approach.

So ... until today, my thinkbroadband tests have all been consistent - low latency, zero jitter, line A+ and a solid graph, huge amounts of buffer bloat.  Having spoken to too many technical manager, I spoke to a fault manager, the fix turns out to be setting my router channel to 'Auto', applying an interleaving depth of 64 and increasing the SNR margin to 12db.  Apparently, this will increase my line speed.  The lead up to this call, was a change to the line profile, reducing the SNR to 3db - not my idea, but I have noticed a change in my trace, an increase in SNR to 9db and asked for an explanation.  We told they could see one error per hour.  So the agreement was, the line would be monitored for 7 days.  My understanding was that no changes would be made until 7 days of data was collated - but no and hence the call today and conversation with the fault manager.

After watching a number of poorly pixelated and synced film, the warning from thinkbroadband appear to be true.  A+ line stat no more and I'm fairly frustrated with my progress!  If the fault managers approach is to be thorough and start at the beginning, that's great.  I don't mind that.  But I do mind being advised not to run more than a couple of computers to the network at any one time.  I'm fairly convinced, the next three days are unlikely to see my broadband revert to previous values, like the advisor said 'trust me'!

If anyone here could help me understand what questions I need to ask to get an insight into the problem that would be appreciated, as the apparent random approach taken by the ISP is going nowhere fast.  I'd like to fix the problem.

Cheers  ;D

[Moderator edited to remove approximately six inches of trailing white space.]
« Last Edit: February 20, 2016, 09:53:08 PM by ashsa »
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Weaver

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Re: ADSL2+ really?
« Reply #1 on: February 20, 2016, 12:37:01 AM »

Welcome to the forum ashsa!

What is "the problem" right now?
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Black Sheep

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Re: ADSL2+ really?
« Reply #2 on: February 20, 2016, 10:01:49 AM »

My personal opinion with all things broadband, is to get the 'Healthy balance' to give stable speeds and minimal LOS.

It doesn't matter how au-fait one is with DSL, the only true way to gauge the quality of your pair of wires from the Exchange to your premises, is to actually perform various tests on-site (PQT, DSL Close-out, Eclipse), to determine if you have a decent pair of wires.

From that point, a better judgement can be made as to what level of 'Protection' (SNR, Interleave, etc), should be applied. With that in mind, any advice given to you can only be on the assumption your line is good ??.

It all depends on the cable type (Copper or Aluminium) and the poundage (Thickness) of said cable, that plays the large part in your DS attenuation figure.
There are many arguments 'For' and 'Against', but my opinion will always fall on the side of having your DS SNR set to default 6dB ..... not 3dB, and to have the minimum of Interleaving applied, usually 8mS. Yes, you will lose circa 3/4Meg of speed from upping the SNR, but that coupled with the Interleaving would certainly see a far more stable connection.

With the amount of speed you are getting, 3/4Meg will be un-noticeable as a loss. As I said at the beginning, stability over speed for me every day of the week.

PS ...... welcome to the forums.  :)
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ashsa

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Re: ADSL2+ really?
« Reply #3 on: February 20, 2016, 12:04:18 PM »

Hi Weaver/Black Sheep,

Thank you for taking time to read my post and for the welcome.

I've woken up this morning to find my line is at 7000 kbps, SNR is 15db and interleaving at 64.  I had taken for granted that the line was good after the BT repair, so admittedly I leant on the ISP when the repair produced no additional increase and my fathers computer continued to trip over itself; I had assumed the ISP would have the experience to push it as far as it could go and no more.  So last week, when the line was delivering 12500 kbps, interleaving 1 and the SNR read 6db, I was happy was perfectly happy.  Then the line stats changed, I lost 2000kbs and was advised by the ISP that this was because of a line fault, occurring once every hour.  What the fault was, was not explained by the ISP.

'PQT, DSL Close-out, Eclipse' would have been carried out by the BT engineer when they visited the property Black Sheep?  If so, who will have these results.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2016, 05:44:26 PM by ashsa »
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gt94sss2

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Re: ADSL2+ really?
« Reply #4 on: February 20, 2016, 12:25:56 PM »

Welcome to the forum.

I am not quite sure what your problem is/was - or what problems you are still experiencing - apologies as I found your post a bit difficult to follow  [sorry :-[ ]but you appear to have a reasonable line for ADSL.

So ... until today, my thinkbroadband tests have all been consistent - low latency, zero jitter, line A+ and a solid graph, huge amounts of buffer bloat.  After speaking to a fault manager - the people above the technical manager, the fix turns out to be setting my router channel to 'Auto', applying an interleaving depth of 64 and increasing the SNR margin to 12db.  Apparently, this will increase my line speed.

If your line was performing well, I don't know why you needed to speak to a 'fault manager' (?) or why they thought that this would help your line (apologies if I have missed anything) - unless your line is unstable/disconnects often raising its default SNR isn't going to help but will result in much slower internet speeds hence your:

I've woken up this morning to find my line is at 7000 kbps, SNR is 15db and interleaving at 64.

You really need to ask for a target SNR of 6db or even better just ask for an SNR reset (which targets a 6db SNR margin anyway)

It might help if we knew the exact problems you were facing now, who the ISP is and the make/model of the modem(s) in question.

Is there any possibility of upgrading to fibre in future?
« Last Edit: February 20, 2016, 12:31:12 PM by gt94sss2 »
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Black Sheep

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Re: ADSL2+ really?
« Reply #5 on: February 20, 2016, 01:34:37 PM »

Hi Weaver/Black Sheep,

Thank you for taking time to read my post and for the welcome.

I've woken up this morning to find my line is at 7000 kbps, SNR is 15db and interleaving at 64.  I had taken for granted that the line was good after the BT repair, so admittedly I leant on the ISP when the repair produced no additional increase and my fathers computer continued to trip over itself; I had assumed the ISP would have the experience to push it as far as it could go and no more.  So last week, when the line was delivering 12500 kbps, interleaving 1 and the SNR read 6db, I was happy was perfectly happy, but there was a line fault, one per hour.  What that meant, was not explained by the ISP.

'PQT, DSL Close-out, Eclipse' would have been carried out by the BT engineer when they visited the property Black Sheep?  If so, who will have these results.

We (Openreach) will have a copy on our TADDS systems, and your ISP should have received a copy. This all depends on the engineer having blue-toothed the test results back to his work-allocation device (i-Phone or Laptop), and then in turn uploaded them through our TARVOS system ??

We are supposed to do them every day, but sometimes events can transpire which could see days/weeks go by before this happens. Not the norm though.

 
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ashsa

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Re: ADSL2+ really?
« Reply #6 on: February 20, 2016, 06:12:20 PM »

Thank you Black Sheep, I will ask the ISP on Monday whether they received these test results.  Ideally, they will provide the details.

gt94sss2 - sorry for the difficult read, I've made some changes.  As for the router, is was provided by the ISP (4-5 years ago).  If it turns out the line is good.  I will replace it with a tried and tested performer.

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burakkucat

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Re: ADSL2+ really?
« Reply #7 on: February 20, 2016, 09:14:47 PM »

I'll also add my welcome.  :)

As for the router, is was provided by the ISP (4-5 years ago).

Sorry to press the point but even after an earlier request, we are still blind to some important facts. So . . . what is the make & model of the modem/router and who is your CP/ISP, please?
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ashsa

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Re: ADSL2+ really?
« Reply #8 on: February 20, 2016, 09:51:39 PM »

Distracted earlier by editing Grumps  :P

We have Talk Talk as our ISP and we're currently using the Huawei HG523a (cue much laughter and sniggering)  ;D

« Last Edit: February 20, 2016, 09:54:32 PM by ashsa »
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kitzuser87430

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Re: ADSL2+ really?
« Reply #9 on: February 21, 2016, 12:18:49 AM »

Quote
Talk Talk as our ISP

OK....what exchange are you connected to click here if you do not know....http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/broadbandchecker.php



PS Welcome to the forums :)

Ian
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ashsa

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Re: ADSL2+ really?
« Reply #10 on: February 21, 2016, 11:46:30 AM »

I'm grateful to everyone for taking an interset - thank you!

Exchange: Penketh   BT Code: LVPEN
Location: Poplar Avenue,   WA5 2EH
Distance:-   Direct:        972 metres
    (appx)*   By Road:   2.2 km
    Status   
   ADSL enabled:   January 31, 2001
   DSL Max enabled:   March 31, 2006
   21CN WBC (ADSL2+)   Enabled
21CN due : (PSTN)   Info N/A
   FTTC   Some areas
   SDSL enabled :   Not Enabled
Broadband Access Market   Broadband Access†   Market 3
BT price band   BTw Pricing Band   Band A

If there is any other information that would help? 

It maybe a little early to make this suggestion, but would it help if I started adding a few Netgear DG834GT's to my ebay 'watch' list?
« Last Edit: February 21, 2016, 11:56:22 AM by ashsa »
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kitzuser87430

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Re: ADSL2+ really?
« Reply #11 on: February 21, 2016, 12:48:16 PM »

Quote
Exchange: Penketh   BT Code: LVPEN

Great you should be on talk talk LLU.

Quote
Netgear DG834GT's to my ebay 'watch' list?

Not really sure; these are pretty long in the tooth, although line monitoring software http://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php/board,46.0.html normally works well with this make and model.
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Weaver

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Re: ADSL2+ really?
« Reply #12 on: February 21, 2016, 12:55:47 PM »

Agreed. These are getting a bit ancient now, capacitors aging, PSUs are becoming a problem
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gt94sss2

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Re: ADSL2+ really?
« Reply #13 on: February 21, 2016, 02:55:44 PM »

gt94sss2 - sorry for the difficult read, I've made some changes.  As for the router, is was provided by the ISP (4-5 years ago).  If it turns out the line is good.  I will replace it with a tried and tested performer.

Thanks  :)

Could you go to http://dslchecker.bt.com/ and post what it says (after removing your number/address) about your line? As you have a talktalk line, it might not recognise your telephone number and you will need to use the address checker instead
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ashsa

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Re: ADSL2+ really?
« Reply #14 on: February 21, 2016, 04:58:37 PM »

I have received a call from the ISP - a nice guy. 

The line is clear, they see no disconnects beyond my turning off the router once a week or so.  I was asked to connect to the test socket and our line profile has been changed to '9-24'mbs.  That's as much information as the ISP was will to give about what he had done.  It maybe that the following information provides little in the way of insight, my router reports SNR has been decreased to 9.2db from 15db, ADSL line speed has increase from circa 9000 to 12591.  Without swapping out the old router, I am unable to see what current interleaving depth is beyond, on.  I have been warned that this profile may not stick... and that every operation has its element of risk  :)

Blacksheep, the Bt engineer did not upload PQT, DSL Close out or Eclipse and the ISP is unable to request the information.  Is there anything I can do?

gt94sss2, the resource has no data for our line.

Weaver/kitzuser87430, I understand from the BCM wiki entry that there are more than just a few routers models using Broadcom chipset.  Do you have a favourite?  My thinking behind the Netgear DG834GT, was cheap and cheerful until we establish the quality of our line - although I understand I should be in no hurry to make changes.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2016, 05:03:02 PM by ashsa »
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