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Author Topic: They're getting closer to you Kitz !!  (Read 4881 times)

waltergmw

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They're getting closer to you Kitz !!
« on: January 29, 2016, 12:04:41 PM »

This is a note from David Ford with his "Gigabit Info" offshoot now integrated into the B4RN network.

Gigabit (Gigabit Info) went live on the B4RN network this month in our Inglewhite Parish, and we are now extending those local connections whenever we get breaks in the weather to cover the rest of the parish bit by bit. We are also well on the way of getting the next parish North, Bleasdale started too, and we're grateful for the presence of Tom Rigg of B4RN last night at what may well be our last meeting before we start digging there in early February.
A huge level of support has been shown across all of this small community.
Deep thanks to barry forde, Chris Conder Simon Wade and others - who showed us the possibilities and then helped us to get there.
JFDI.
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Ronski

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Re: They're getting closer to you Kitz !!
« Reply #1 on: January 29, 2016, 01:20:11 PM »

Nice speed test there Walter.
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kitz

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Re: They're getting closer to you Kitz !!
« Reply #2 on: January 29, 2016, 01:37:35 PM »

Ohh  nice.  Well done B4RN.   :thumbs: 
Next - dig a channel across the river Wyre please  :D


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Inglewhite - home of the Green Man.   
Gosh that takes me back... a few of us used to go there quite often on Sundays to blow away Saturday night cobwebs.   A walk and Sunday lunch.  They did excellent food there.
Used to walk Jazz for miles around that area, being a retriever he loved the river at Brock Bottom.   I like it too as it was clean water and no having to hose him down like if he'd been on the beach :)
 
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waltergmw

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Re: They're getting closer to you Kitz !!
« Reply #3 on: January 30, 2016, 08:59:42 AM »

@ Ronski,

It's a nice problem to have but finding a speed tester with sufficient capacity is sometimes a problem.
I prefer DSL Reports which seems m ore reliable on repeated tests.
Other problems are old computers with slow ethernet ports and stone walls 3 ft thick which kill WiFi.

@ Kitz,

River crossings are not usually a problem and the Wyre has already been crossed but further upstream.
Expansion in more urban areas is not such a good fit for the overall design and especially ones where inferior systems are already operational making fund-raising more of a challenge.

B4RN were quite chuffed in keeping all of their cabinets live during nearly 48 hours power outage where others failed. Not having submarine cabinets helped too !

Kind regards,
Walter
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niemand

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Re: They're getting closer to you Kitz !!
« Reply #4 on: January 30, 2016, 11:37:36 AM »

@ Kitz,

River crossings are not usually a problem and the Wyre has already been crossed but further upstream.
Expansion in more urban areas is not such a good fit for the overall design and especially ones where inferior systems are already operational making fund-raising more of a challenge.

B4RN were quite chuffed in keeping all of their cabinets live during nearly 48 hours power outage where others failed. Not having submarine cabinets helped too !

Kind regards,
Walter

Huge congratulations on the project's ongoing success, especially the reliability in the face of power failures, and thank you for your honesty in noting that it's not a one size fits all deal and would be a struggle to make viable in urban areas for right now especially in the presence of the hybrid-fibre solutions from Openreach and VM.

C.
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waltergmw

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Re: They're getting closer to you Kitz !!
« Reply #5 on: January 31, 2016, 11:42:04 AM »

@ I/net

Thank you for your kind words.
Due to the very sparse nature of much of the B4RN area there are only around 30 distribution node cabinets which are sited well away from known flood areas so that helped too.

I should point out that, although the area covered has "exploded", it is not complete as, at present, there is less angst from those in the larger inhabited areas e.g. Kirkby Lonsdale where FTTC line distances are well below the 7 miles seen in parts of the fells. It also depends upon the enthusiasm of individuals within their communities to raise the cash and then bury the ducts. Similarly the completion of an area can take some while if those affected are not in urgent need. E.g. although B4RN beat the poorer FTTH asymmetric Infinity offering by over a year in Dolphinholme the B4RN stalwarts are still pottering along near The Fleece.

The "explosion" has now reached the outskirts of Kendal to the north and stretches from Storth and Silverdale on the west coast all the way towards Settle in the east. There are also hints that Dentdale might join the party too before long. Given that you can't always use the M6 it can take over two hours to traverse the country lanes over the area.

I expect we are both aware that, apart from Jersey, a few B4RN type schemes and the enclaves served by the likes of Gigaclear, Hyperoptic, City Fibre etc. those relying on the more reliable though variable Virgin Media services and BT's partial offerings seem a very worrying way off a true future-proofed symmetric service to match the rapidly growing data transport requirements; particularly the homes with children quite capable of infuriating their parents !

However VM could relatively easily install 7 mm blown fibre tubes to every front door via their existing ducts, BUT only in the areas where they have a presence. I realise that's unlikely soon but again worryingly for the remainder I don't see G-Fast as a viable symmetric competitor.

I am fortunate as I can often achieve good but asymmetric speeds but still with poor latency figures sometimes on my VM service.

http://www.dslreports.com/speedtest/2683095

bbc.co.uk ping statistics ---
40 packets transmitted, 40 packets received, 0.0% packet loss
round-trip min/avg/max/stddev = 20.134/22.523/50.464/4.656 ms

Kind regards,
Walter
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Bowdon

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Re: They're getting closer to you Kitz !!
« Reply #6 on: January 31, 2016, 04:15:47 PM »

I've always liked the idea of the B4RN's project.

I am confused though. How is it that B4RN can install full fibre and it still be cost effective? (I am assuming it is cost effective).

Who pays for all the materials?

How does it connect to the Internet? Through a BT exchange or somewhere else?

I'm just curious about how it all works. I can understand that there isn't the same delay for permission to dig things up.

At the risk of starting the whole full fibre debate.. I do wonder why we have examples of companies/groups able to make a profile from full fibre, while on the 'big scale', its always said to be too expensive.

It would be good if what happens with B4RN could be re-created in other parts of the country too.

I'd be also interested if Ofcom did make changes to the current setup to maybe have another body formed to organise the deployment of fibre technology, with the aim of bringing advice and debate from all the leading groups and ISP's together. Hopefully this would benefit everyone involved.
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tickmike

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Re: They're getting closer to you Kitz !!
« Reply #7 on: January 31, 2016, 05:17:40 PM »

I've always liked the idea of the B4RN's project.

I am confused though. How is it that B4RN can install full fibre and it still be cost effective? (I am assuming it is cost effective).

Who pays for all the materials?

How does it connect to the Internet? Through a BT exchange or somewhere else?


http://b4rn.org.uk/
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WWWombat

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Re: They're getting closer to you Kitz !!
« Reply #8 on: January 31, 2016, 07:09:36 PM »

I've always liked the idea of the B4RN's project.

I am confused though. How is it that B4RN can install full fibre and it still be cost effective? (I am assuming it is cost effective).

It is cost-effective. Most certainly cost-effective. But it isn't, in the full sense of the word, commercial.

Who pays for all the materials?

The locals have raised the money themselves - perhaps over a slightly wider community at first, but later on a parish-by-parish basis. This is also the way they've organised the work too.

The figure in my head is somewhere around £1,000 per home, but that might be out of date by now. The money essentially comes in as loans, that start out as interest-free, and start paying some interest after a while. If you loaned £1,500 at the start, you'd get a year's free connection.

That money pays for real stuff - ducting, fibre, cabinets, switching and routing gear.

The work of digging in the ducting, and blowing in the fibre itself, is done by volunteers, who comprise farmers (if they want to dig through their own land) or locals. They are paid (IIRC) in shares. Almost all of the digging goes through farmer's land, and is as easy for them as digging in drainage, effectively. This takes away a huge chunk of the Capex needed to install the fibre.

Money also isn't needed for wayleaves. Commercial telco companies, like other utilities have to organise wayleaves from landowners for the cables/service crossing land - both underground and overhead. They then have to pay annual rental. B4RN also have to organise wayleaves - but don't pay any annual rental.

Now, farmers/landowners aren't ever going to volunteer to install ducts for a commercial company. And they aren't ever going to agree to not receive rental from a wayleave for a commercial company. So B4RN is carefully constructed as a community interest company so that farmers know they are helping their community - and, of course, will come out of the deal with stonking broadband too.

So the money raised is for hardware, but not for labour or wayleaves. Eventually, the loans will start to be paid back, once there is enough operating income to do so.

How does it connect to the Internet? Through a BT exchange or somewhere else?

The connections to the internet happen in Manchester.

Backbone fibre runs through the country, and it happens that Zayo (used to be known as Geo) had some dark fibre than runs through B4RN's area. Some at the northern end, some at the southern end. B4RN rent some of the fibre from them, from these two locations, into Manchester. They then run their own DWDM kit from those two places into Manchester, so are capable of lighting the fibre, and then adding extra wavelengths as needed (up to 32 wavelengths, each 10g).

More details from this presentation that Barry Forde did:
https://indico.uknof.org.uk/getFile.py/access?contribId=13&resId=0&materialId=slides&confId=29
and the Youtube presentation:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DXYaAd5ubok

At the risk of starting the whole full fibre debate.. I do wonder why we have examples of companies/groups able to make a profile from full fibre, while on the 'big scale', its always said to be too expensive.

Money.

B4RN relies on two major things:
a) The labour of volunteers, and the fact that the work across those vast distances can be done by volunteers. Digging across pasture is something farmers can do easily, with none of the consideration needed when you run this stuff on the highway.

This is one of the biggest costs of deploying fibre to commercial companies - paying labour for the civil engineering, of either digging in fibre, or clearing blockages from decade-old ducts.

b) The free wayleaves are the difference that makes it viable to run the fibre through farmland in the first place, rather than the highway.

Right now, B4RN subscribers pay £30pm. I calculated, a few years back, that paying the standard NFU wayleave rates would put their average bill up by over £10pm.

We've seen (with mobile masts) how some landowners hold the mobile companies to ransom, by denying access to stop by and repair a broken transceiver. They want more money ... and BT's response is to send their networks via the highway. It costs more to dig in, in the first place, but you pay no annual rent, and you get no access problems - except for the rules relating to roadworks.

In the end, the whole thing with volunteers and wayleaves becomes the thing that makes B4RN viable. But it also means it cannot be copied by anything commercial.

The other aspect is the ~ £1,000 per home raised for investment. That part is the "risk" that locals have put into the project in the first place, and is a similar risk to that needed by BT, KC, Sky or TalkTalk.

Because B4RN is a community project, there is some amount of community-spirit that binds the locals to the project - which means the locals are a little more likely to buy the service even when BT do stop by and put an FTTC cabinet in. That buy-in helps B4RN to attract a high-take-up (60%+), and feel happy that subscribers will stick around - hopefully for long enough for those loans (from locals) to get paid back.

The investors that put the money into BT, KC, Sky and TalkTalk aren't happy with the risk associated with the rollout, achieving such a high takeup and keeping it for sufficiently long.

It would be good if what happens with B4RN could be re-created in other parts of the country too.

It can be replicated, but only if the locals are able to include those volunteering and wayleave elements. You need to persuade more than 60% of locals that this is their only hope, and agree to sign up. 60% is high (ask any locality trying to get to the 30% threshold that Gigaclear requires), and you need some decent technical people leading it that people will trust, but also some decent "opinion shapers" who can help persuade locals.

However, it all falls apart when you can't do the work through volunteers and wayleaves - and that happens when you stop being rural.

Right now, distribution of fibre to villagers most happens from the fields surrounding the village - into back gardens. Volunteers might be able to manage distribution in soft, green verges (and companies like Gigaclear excel in these places) . But once volunteers get to places where they run out of "fields and back gardens", they will find it harder (impossible?) to put their fibre down roads and solid paths. Once the village stops feeling like a few houses around a village green, and starts to feel like 5 or 6 semi-urban streets, then I think the feel of distribution changes radically.

If you can't put fibre down the highway (paths or roads), the alternative is to use people's gardens (front or back). Instead of convincing one farmer of the mutual benefit, you now have to persuade dozens of individual householders - and any one NIMBY (literally) can scupper things for the whole street.

Volunteers and free wayleaves can only get you so far...

Things also fall apart when you get to places large enough to get a BT FTTC cabinet or two. The ability to get cheap-ish fibre from TT or Sky, as part of a bundle, starts to appeal too much.

Chris Conder (a B4RN activist) believes that once you put fibre in, B4RN-style, the rest of the country will follow commercially, led by demand. The larger villages will see the fibre in the small villages, and demand the same. The towns will see the large villages, and demand the same. Etc, Etc.

I'm not sure - especially after seeing how villages cope with attracting 30% take-up when there is a semi-decent FTTC cabinet in the village.

Quote
I'd be also interested if Ofcom did make changes to the current setup to maybe have another body formed to organise the deployment of fibre technology, with the aim of bringing advice and debate from all the leading groups and ISP's together. Hopefully this would benefit everyone involved.

This post has gone on quite long enough - but this is a whole different avenue. There is perhaps scope for some sort of joint-interest body, to use in locations where BT/Virgin competition isn't enough to bring their own version of "fibre".
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kitz

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Re: They're getting closer to you Kitz !!
« Reply #9 on: January 31, 2016, 07:34:27 PM »

Also...

B4RN is in a very fortunate position in that they have Barry Forde.  Barry has extensive knowledge in networks and getting broadband to remote areas. iirc even in the late 90's he was at the helm providing microwave link technology so that rural schools and other educational facilities could obtain what really was at the time state of the art technology.

Lancaster is in some ways unique in that it is a very small city yet surrounded by rural areas. Population is actually quite sparse and if you look on the map, you will see that it is small and apart from the university there really isnt anything much but small villages in beautiful countryside.
Lancs university also has one of the best reputations for IT.  As such areas nearby to Lancaster have a reasonably high concentration of academics, yet outside Lancaster itself much of the area BT considered unviable.  B4RN therefore has several key people who are networking specialists and/or associated with the Uni.

Would any other rural location would find themselves with such a good team of people to head up something like B4RN who freely give up their time?

The other thing is if you look at some of their ducting and trenches, there is no way anyone like BT would be able to get away with this.

Dont get me wrong, I am not knocking them... they work hard and deserve their success. 
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ryan2390

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Re: They're getting closer to you Kitz !!
« Reply #10 on: February 07, 2016, 06:17:15 PM »

*snip*
I am fortunate as I can often achieve good but asymmetric speeds but still with poor latency figures sometimes on my VM service.

http://www.dslreports.com/speedtest/2683095

bbc.co.uk ping statistics ---
40 packets transmitted, 40 packets received, 0.0% packet loss
round-trip min/avg/max/stddev = 20.134/22.523/50.464/4.656 ms

Kind regards,
Walter

Walter,

That's rather good. 224Mbps when paying for 200Mbps. Bet it's not always that good though.

Also...do we know if the new rollout VM are doing is going to be FTTP or coax?

Ryan
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waltergmw

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Re: They're getting closer to you Kitz !!
« Reply #11 on: February 07, 2016, 10:47:54 PM »

@ Ryan,

Yes you are correct as occasionally speeds drop down to high double figures.
However VM are poking about quite a bit in the Guildford area as VERY annoyingly I've lost service for around an hour on three occasions recently. When you ring 151 from a Virgin line you are immediately asked to press 1 for Broadband problems, 1 again to confirm you are ringing on the (separate) associated twisted pair phone line after which you are told of the upgrades in postcode GU1 2ab so your service should be restored by 15:30. In practice it's actually only about an hour.

Despite the fact that VM could deploy P2P blown fibre tubes down most of their existing tube / ducts to the front door, I suspect the new areas are also likely to follow their existing single co-ax design. From a commercial viewpoint, given that they can claim speeds double those of BT, there is probably insufficient commercial reason to deploy P2P fibre.

@ Kitz,

I do realise you are not knocking B4RN's stalwart efforts, but I hope a few public servants are observing the accountants peculiar logic when developing the infrastructure. As to be expected cheapest is best, though how BT's accountants can justify NOT installing a second duct in a trench probably costing under £1.50 per metre and then pay several thousands to re-excavate the same trench (and sometimes damaging the first duct) is well beyond my practical comprehension !

From a public servant's viewpoint there seem to be a growing number of quandaries E.g.:-

BT's hybrid PSTN and fibre in ducts sometimes in very poor condition as well as a small amount of asymmetric FTTH

Virgin Media's more modern and often higher reliability co-ax in newer ducts (again sometimes damaged by other utilities)

Micro-trenching 7mm blown fibre tubes e.g. in York

Gigaclear et al providing commercial P2P symmetric FTTH in new ducts

And finally

A tiny number of B4RN Community Interest Company type projects succeeding where any other P2P 1 Gbps symmetric offerings to EVERY property at ANY distance would be out of the question for any commercial entity.

Into this technical mayhem somebody must surely be asking why public servants are authorising expenditure of Taxpayers' cash to some of the enterprises underway some of which seem unsustainable particularly when ageing aluminium and copper twisted pairs are largely remaining in situ and especially the multiple kilometre rural lines.

Oh what tangled webs we weave and I for one am very perplexed !

Kind regards,
Walter
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WWWombat

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Re: They're getting closer to you Kitz !!
« Reply #12 on: February 08, 2016, 02:17:15 AM »

I guess the tangled web starts with a fundamental question of what the public servants are legally allowed to authorise expenditure for.

As far as I can see, any state aid we wish to employ has to follow EU rules, and be used only where market failure exists. Can we spend money in any other circumstance? Can the government choose to deploy networks without some indication of failure? I don't think so.

Where market failure has happened, how far can the government go in restitution? Can they decide to limit proposals to something way more capable than the market is providing elsewhere? Or is it meant to really bring the failed areas up to the level of the market? It has to be hard to justify a claim of market failure for a market that doesn't exist.

Does the state aid need to match up with EU policies in any way? Can the government only use state aid because the EU has some digital agenda targets? Which, in turn allows all EU governments to do the same, so there is no distortion of intra-EU, inter-country trade. If this is true, must the government only fund capability to meet the EU target? My reading of the EU guidelines is that the DA 2020 targets represent an agreed high-water mark.

The final issue comes to the competitive tender. If the tendering requirements are technology neutral, and can only set limits to meet the DA, not higher, and authorities must accept the best competitive tender, what can be done to disqualify "aging aluminium and copper pairs" if it qualifies? When remaining in situ is one of the things that makes the tender competitive.

It seems like the EU rules provide the opportunity as well as the restriction, and reality gets its ugly face in the way.
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waltergmw

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Re: They're getting closer to you Kitz !!
« Reply #13 on: February 08, 2016, 12:39:39 PM »

@ Wombat,

Very nicely put and an excellent excuse for those starving but enthusiastic enough to consider a DIY B4RN type solution.

Kind regards,
Walter
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