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Author Topic: G.INP Mk2 - Line stats.  (Read 21890 times)

Ragnarok

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Re: G.INP Mk2 - Line stats.
« Reply #60 on: June 05, 2015, 10:39:21 PM »

Bald_Eagle1, I suspect something is going horribly wrong there. exactly what I don't know. Could be like I had, a flooded cable duct less than 50 meter from my house. Maybe some noisy equipment near you causing havok.

I think another impending problem could be HG612 related for many people, the power regulation caps in the HG612 ( 4 x 1000uf ) are cheep crap Lelon caps, which doesn't bode well for long life in 24/7 usage.
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WWWombat

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Re: G.INP Mk2 - Line stats.
« Reply #61 on: June 05, 2015, 10:53:30 PM »

The pre-cursor to the resync doesn't look too good (FEC/RSCorr, CRC & ES), so maybe it's not actually G.INP profiles related.

Looking at the full Monty, these are the graphs that struck me, along with the SES one - amongst the traditional graphs.

The downstream retransmission counters go haywire too, with increases visible in the rtx-c counter (the blocks that get retransmitted successfully), the rtx-uc counter (the ones that never get through, despite a number of retransmissions), and the LEFTRS counter that shows when throughput drops to an unacceptable level.

All those suggest your downstream was almost totally borked, which might explain why DLM intervened.

But, at first glance, the only profile changes seem to have been upstream. It isn't immediately obvious why.

I need to look at the files more, but I'm on a tablet at the mo.
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Bald_Eagle1

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Re: G.INP Mk2 - Line stats.
« Reply #62 on: June 05, 2015, 11:38:29 PM »

Looking at the full Monty, these are the graphs that struck me, along with the SES one - amongst the traditional graphs.

The downstream retransmission counters go haywire too, with increases visible in the rtx-c counter (the blocks that get retransmitted successfully), the rtx-uc counter (the ones that never get through, despite a number of retransmissions), and the LEFTRS counter that shows when throughput drops to an unacceptable level.



I imagine those increases were due to the increased ES/SES/CRC counts?



Ragnorak might have a point (i.e. the power regulation caps).

This modem has been connected & active 24/7 since I obtained it from a visiting engineer (but unfortunately, I can't recall exactly when that was - it was quite a while ago though).


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Bald_Eagle1

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Re: G.INP Mk2 - Line stats.
« Reply #63 on: June 05, 2015, 11:52:28 PM »


But, at first glance, the only profile changes seem to have been upstream. It isn't immediately obvious why.

I need to look at the files more, but I'm on a tablet at the mo.


Looking back, I had 'similar' stats data & resyncs 19th & 24th May (both also Retrain Reason 1).

19/05/2015 15:03 - RESYNC detected (DS 21912 Kbps, US 4999 Kbps), AS = 25, Retrain Reason: 1
24/05/2015 18:46 - RESYNC detected (DS 21432 Kbps, US 5000 Kbps), AS = 57, Retrain Reason: 1
05/06/2015 18:50 - RESYNC detected (DS 21454 Kbps, US 3826 Kbps), AS = 23, Retrain Reason: 1

To me, this indicates either a line issue or some really severe interference from somewhere.
(Possibly a modem issue).



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Bald_Eagle1

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Re: G.INP Mk2 - Line stats.
« Reply #64 on: June 05, 2015, 11:58:29 PM »

Apologies to everyone if this actually has nothing to do with the G.INP rollout/profile revision issues.

At this stage, I'm not sure whether it's related or not, but I do now suspect that it is not.

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kitz

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Re: G.INP Mk2 - Line stats.
« Reply #65 on: June 06, 2015, 12:27:27 AM »

No worries BE.   I was in the process of splitting off any linestats from the main G.INP thread anyhow :)
Whatever it is, I hope it sorts.

What I find new though is DLM intervention in the late afternoon/evening.  This was also experienced with Tommy's line.  Its possible that Tommy's line also has some sort of issue  :-\

The fact that G.INP is still applied to your upstream would seem to indicate that yours may not be related to the Mk2 g.inp update :/
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WWWombat

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Re: G.INP Mk2 - Line stats.
« Reply #66 on: June 06, 2015, 01:23:34 AM »

The downstream retransmission counters go haywire too, with increases visible in the rtx-c counter (the blocks that get retransmitted successfully), the rtx-uc counter (the ones that never get through, despite a number of retransmissions), and the LEFTRS counter that shows when throughput drops to an unacceptable level.
I imagine those increases were due to the increased ES/SES/CRC counts?

I'm pretty sure they're related too ... but we haven't seen too many stats that have shown how the severity in one measure (eg, the sudden high level of RScorr) maps to severity in others (eg, the rtx_uc accumulating thousands, and LEFTRS changing by 70ish).

I suspect those stats probably give us some really good benchmark figures for future comparison ... so I really must try to save them somewhere.

The downside is that it means your line has probably gone to s***.
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WWWombat

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Re: G.INP Mk2 - Line stats.
« Reply #67 on: June 06, 2015, 01:36:47 AM »


But, at first glance, the only profile changes seem to have been upstream. It isn't immediately obvious why.

I need to look at the files more, but I'm on a tablet at the mo.


Looking back, I had 'similar' stats data & resyncs 19th & 24th May (both also Retrain Reason 1).

19/05/2015 15:03 - RESYNC detected (DS 21912 Kbps, US 4999 Kbps), AS = 25, Retrain Reason: 1
24/05/2015 18:46 - RESYNC detected (DS 21432 Kbps, US 5000 Kbps), AS = 57, Retrain Reason: 1
05/06/2015 18:50 - RESYNC detected (DS 21454 Kbps, US 3826 Kbps), AS = 23, Retrain Reason: 1

To me, this indicates either a line issue or some really severe interference from somewhere.
(Possibly a modem issue).

I agree that the event on the 24th May around 18:00 looks significant. The 19th appears a little less significant - and looks to be a longer, slower event judging by the LEFTRS graph.

However, that same LEFTRS graph shows another event on the 29th that seems to elude most other graphs (we can see some evidence on the rtx_* graphs) and the 2nd.

What is good is that these events seem to be, with a wide 20-day view, relatively short-lived.
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Chrysalis

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Re: G.INP Mk2 - Line stats.
« Reply #68 on: June 06, 2015, 06:38:36 AM »

Also DS SES.


No problems showing for US though  :-\

yeah so an issue started occuring on your line.

However like everyone else to me the US DLM action is baffling.

What was your US sync speed before g.inp was rolled out? is it now lower than that?
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Bald_Eagle1

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Re: G.INP Mk2 - Line stats.
« Reply #69 on: June 06, 2015, 10:08:39 AM »

Pre-G.INP:-


Max:   Upstream rate = 4816 Kbps, Downstream rate = 22432 Kbps
Bearer:   0, Upstream rate = 4992 Kbps, Downstream rate = 22399 Kbps
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Chrysalis

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Re: G.INP Mk2 - Line stats.
« Reply #70 on: June 06, 2015, 11:48:00 AM »

so your RS is the same as pre g.inp yet the sync is lower?
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WWWombat

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Re: G.INP Mk2 - Line stats.
« Reply #71 on: June 06, 2015, 12:14:16 PM »

@BE1

I was looking at the Plink file from just before the resync, which made me realise something I missed yesterday ... The "Bearer 0 US INP" value decreased during yesterday's resync, from 46 to 41, and the Bearer 0 US INPrein" value stayed at zero.

That change strikes me as meaning DLM is de-intervening. It was getting out of the way, not adding more intervention. Just like old-style DLM, the lower values represent less of an intervention.

During the resync, the modems have negotiated larger RS block sizes (245 now, vs 141) for upstream, and slightly less FEC overhead (16/245 now, vs 10/141). The latter especially isn't much of a change, but they have both moved in the direction you'd expect for a lesser amount of intervention.

Although the interleaving depth changed, the delay caused by interleaving didn't change by much: (2 * 245 now, vs 4 * 141). The increase in interleaver block size (which is the same as the RS block size here) offsets the reduction in interleaving depth. I've noticed that this part of the negotiation doesn't always work out so logically - and can sometimes appear very perverse (I wish I had logged data from all my power cuts).

On balance, the resync doesn't look to have been a DLM reaction to anything happening in the upstream. However, the resync does appear to have caused some new upstream parameters to have taken hold ... but they are an improvement. The reason there has been a marked loss of speed must be down to the loss of US0. There is little indication why.

Having now understood this side of things, and having also seen no change to the DLM parameters for downstream, I'm wondering why this resync happened...

And now I don't think DLM triggered it at all.

If you take a look at the xlogfilex that @BE1 uploaded (I couldn't get it on the tablet yesterday), you can see that the 15-minute statistics show 1 LOS and 10 LOF (loss of signal and loss of framing, respectively). These events are the kind of thing that also cause a modem to resync, and they also cause retrain reason 1.

I now suspect the resync was caused by the line conditions that caused all those errors ... which also happened to cause enough LOS and LOF to trigger a resync.

On a separate front ... Did the resync stop all the downstream errors?
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WWWombat

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Re: G.INP Mk2 - Line stats.
« Reply #72 on: June 06, 2015, 01:39:37 PM »

While looking at @BE1's issue yesterday, my eye caught a couple of earlier issues, so I thought I'd reply to them.

First, @tommy45's changes...

yeah so imo tommy, your US is exactly back how it was before on fast path.  With D set to 1 and R set to 16.

So openreach did what I told them to do a month ago.  Leave US on fast path config.

Having just had a quick look at the R and N values, then yep.  Theyve rolled back on the upstream as to how things were before they applied g.inp.

I agree. It looks very typical of a pre-G.INP setup. with one little proviso that I'll mention later.

The MSGc value has changed though (Number of bytes in the overhead channel message.) but Im not sure what impact that will have on the line.  Theres more overhead than with g.inp, but less than previous  :-\
I haven't really paid much attention to the changes of these before, but I think the overhead channel is the part that moves into bearer 1  when G.INP is running. As G.INP was turned off upstream, the overhead channel in that direction has moved back into bearer 0. This matches the relative changes seen in MSGc between the two bearers; I have no idea what a "-6" signifies though.

I value (Interleaver block size) is also less and its interesting that its now exactly half of the N value.  These are config params so not sure how or if it will make any difference because Interleaving depth is one so effectively non-interleaved.  But it certainly looks like theyve been tweaking some parameters so that if interleaving and RS is switched on it will have less impact.   WWwombat is best when it comes to working out how much of an impact.
When depth is 1, then the interleaver block size being half the RS block size is a little strange - on the face of it, there is no apparent need for it to be. But I don't think it has any impact on either the FEC overhead amounts or on the interleaving delay.

Note that, as far as I'm aware, the R, D, I and N parameters are all negotiated by the modems independently of DLM. The value negotiated have to achieve the settings that DLM *does* send into the DSLAM (INP, INPrein and delay), but otherwise it is for the modems to negotiate.

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No idea what RRC bits are.

RRC = Retransmission Return Channel. It has 12 bits, to which 12 bits of FEC are added, and carries the ACKs and NACKs for the received blocks, telling the transmitter what needs to be re-transmitted.

If re-transmission only happens downstream, then the RRC only needs to exist upstream.

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kitz did you miss my post? you seem to have forgotten error correction has always been enabled on US FTTC.

... But yes I did know.   I think its mentioned in one of my posts further up in the same thread... and this is why I wanted to compare the 'R' value..  which in itself is proof that Openreach has for a while been applying FEC on the upstream. - which we knew anyhow that theyve been doing this for at least 18months now.

I just wanted to point out that Openreach have had FEC running (without interleaving) on upstream forever. My earliest stats, November 2011, show this effect on an original 40/10 line, though these stats were taken shortly after BT had started to use the 17a profile, but shortly before they started to allow 80/20 profiles.

However, and this is the proviso I mentioned earlier, my impression has largely been that upstream FEC protection has only appeared when it is effectively free - i.e. where the FEC overhead can be applied freely because attainable is higher than the package speed. I know that isn't 100% true, as some places had upstream FEC when their speeds were lower, but "largely".

Obviously FEC is added deliberately alongside interleaving when DLM intervenes properly on the upstream, but that is a different process.

Quote
What we do have to be really careful about now is stressing the difference between Error Correction (FEC) and Interleaving.. and yes they do appear to have ramped Error Correction up :(   We may also have to be careful about the definition of FAST path and Interleaved with depth of 1 even though the result for the EU is practically the same :/

Yes. VDSL2 has two latency paths: one fastpath, and one interleaved path. However, the interleaved path can be configured with a depth of 1, making it acts the same as the fastpath, even though it isn't actually the fastpath.

Unfortunately, some people read D=1 to mean fastpath, when it isn't necessarily strictly true.

I recall reading that, with G.INP active, all user data goes down the interleaved latency path - though it might still be configured with D=1.

It was attainable speed , my sync is still 19999 (20mbps) as the attainable is still above now by only 2mbps

Looking at MDWS, that drop of US attainable speed is mysterious. It isn't caused by a resync (or any change of parameters, whether G.INP, FEC or otherwise), and neither is the recovery back to the higher speed. Power remains the same, and the only matching graph is a slight rise in upstream signal attenuation for U1.

I have seen my line do an equivalent jump between US attainable values before now. It was equally mysterious.

I note that an attainable of around 30Mbps seems out of line - far too high - compared with the downstream attainable of 83Mbps. I do wonder about the effects of UPBO on the statistics we see upstream, and whether we only ever get to see an artificial picture.

If I look at the graph of your line over 90 days - from before G.INP started - the US power appears to gradually climb over the entire period. This obviously *ought* to make a difference to the US attainable values over that time, but doesn't. That suggests your noise environment is also changing.

Quote
I'm also seeing some SES seconds  and until this borked fix was rolled out the circuit hadn't generated any since the 18th march 2015,

As you had G.INP active in the upstream for all of the intervening period, alongside FEC+interleaving combined, your line would have experienced a very different error picture. Errors would have been more likely to be fixed (because interleaving makes FEC more effective); errors that caused a block to fail would have been retransmitted, and likely transmitted successfully. Considerably fewer ES's would have happened and, as a consequence, there's a considerably lower likelihood that ES's would ever get severe enough to be classed as SES's.
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tommy45

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Re: G.INP Mk2 - Line stats.
« Reply #73 on: June 06, 2015, 02:21:30 PM »

Thank's for that explanation,But when i look at  stats a little further back i see higher attainable rates snr levels and lower power on the us

It also would appear that G.inp hasn't given any increases in attainable rate on the DS , the Snr levels have decreased a little  my upstream was higher than it is now when fast path  I can see that the power has been at 3.8  before g.inp There where some changes following the last fault  that wasn't on the D  side but on the  E side So why that would affect  things i don't know all the engineer did at my house was remove the vdsl filtered face plate  and plug in the JDSU

As you say the upstream appears to have the same values as when on fast path ,maybe the lower SNR levels and attainable are due to G.inp being half on,
« Last Edit: June 06, 2015, 02:37:20 PM by tommy45 »
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Bald_Eagle1

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Re: G.INP Mk2 - Line stats.
« Reply #74 on: June 06, 2015, 05:09:16 PM »

I now suspect the resync was caused by the line conditions that caused all those errors ... which also happened to cause enough LOS and LOF to trigger a resync.


Me too, but I can't think what could have caused it.



Quote
On a separate front ... Did the resync stop all the downstream errors?


Yes. 18 hour & 24 hour montages attached.

The xlogfile.txt file is also attached from immediately after I had forced the resync.


I forced a resync today & U0 came back into use, at just a shade lower speed than the usual 4999 Kbps.

Bearer 0 INP remains the same as following last night's resync, but Bearer 0 US Interleaving depth has increased from 2 back to 4:-

Code: [Select]
                                Current Stats              Previous Stats
                                =============              ==============
Downstream Sync                   21496 Kbps                 21454 Kbps
Upstream Sync                      4951 Kbps                  3826 Kbps
Downstream Attainable Rate        21228 Kbps                 21304 Kbps
Upstream Attainable Rate           4985 Kbps                  3883 Kbps
Bearer 0 Downstream INP              47.00                      47.00
Bearer 0 Upstream INP                41.00                      41.00
Bearer 0 Downstream G.INP Framing     18                          18
Bearer 0 Downstream Interleaving       8                          8
Bearer 0 Upstream Interleaving         4                          2
Downstream SNRM                      6.2dB                        6.3dB
Upstream SNRM                        5.9dB                        5.8dB

« Last Edit: June 06, 2015, 05:11:28 PM by Bald_Eagle1 »
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