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Author Topic: RAMBo being shut down?  (Read 36654 times)

Black Sheep

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Re: RAMBo being shut down?
« Reply #75 on: November 29, 2014, 11:20:44 AM »

 :lol: All John Rambo wanted to do was, "Just pass through" ........................ look at the sh1t-fest he's created !!  ;D.
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simoncraddock

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Re: RAMBo being shut down?
« Reply #76 on: November 29, 2014, 02:47:07 PM »

What's interesting about all this talk about DLM being shut down and rumours of vectoring being rolled out soon is that on the ASSIA website blog there's an illustration showing the current roll out of vectoring worldwide.

The 'legend' on the illustration shows this:



On the map it shows the UK's current status:



Maybe I'm reading it wrong, but does this look like BT will be rolling it out in the 1st half or final quarter of 2014 using ASSIA technology?
If this is so are we just waiting for a switch-on date? The legend is a little confusing.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2014, 03:02:04 PM by simoncraddock »
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kitz

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Re: RAMBo being shut down?
« Reply #77 on: November 29, 2014, 03:29:48 PM »

Quote
What a tangled web is woven, and how much does the corporate world remind me of a kids' playground or a bear garden!

Isnt it just  ::)


Quote
Maybe I'm reading it wrong, but does this look like BT will be rolling it out in the 1st half of 2014 using ASSIA technology?

Without doubt they will have patented vectoring controls with their Expresse management system.   But Vectoring is a technology that they cannot lay claim to - although saying that they did try to lay claim to invention several standard DSL technologies.

ASSIA have a very good marketing dept. Marketing Depts are well versed at hype.  But no they didnt invent vectoring and I doubt BT would touch ASSIA with a barge pole. 

No-one knows yet how BT are doing it, but I should imagine they are using their own system..  which will very likely something be involving the profiles on the 'Yukon system' which we heard about for the first time from the patent court cases.   BT seem to be keeping tight lipped on Yukon, but from descriptions it could possibly the software program which will control & hold the fttc profile tables and allow configuration changes to profiles.. such as those that will be needed for vdsl and vectoring.
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pedro492

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Re: RAMBo being shut down?
« Reply #78 on: November 30, 2014, 11:19:20 PM »

nothing to do with shills and stooges.

Some of the media reports are grossly biased towards BT;  a promise of extra advertising spend ensuring perhaps some very flattering press coverage?!  :blush:

It seems that BT, via its "arms-length" PR teams, is working the broadband forums incognito; briefing journalists "off-the-record" over this scandal; and weaving in favourable copy to those "independent" media reports.

This article from Mark Jackson of ISPReview introduces a number of unattributable claims about BT's DLM software. [1]



Importantly, Jackson states that it "appears" the plug was pulled on the infringing DLM System at 6am on Friday 21 November.

Come on Mark, the DLM System either was turned off at 6am, or it wasn't!

Jackson disguises his source, but we can suppose that it was BT itself.  Who else would have the exact details of that alleged DLM turn-off, except for BT?  Who else, but BT, could provide such precision to the timing ("6am Fri 21 Nov")?

But why didn't BT issue its own press release to that effect?   Maybe because the report of the turn-off wasn't strictly true?  And, as every propagandist can vouch, it's never good PR to be found out fibbing.

From scouring the end-user reports on this and other forums, it's clear that even after that 6am deadline, BT was and, it seems, still is, operating an automatic mechanism to "adaptively modify the line profiles" of its NGA end-users; that mechanism being the key function of the infringing DLM system.

And there's yet another curiosity in that report from Jackson; to be found in the comments section beneath the main body of his report.

Just hunch here, but this exchange between a reader called "Dick" and Jackson feels very contrived.   Like something out of a promotional FAQ.  Where a company poses as its own customers, answering its own softball questions, to promote itself!  :blush:



Sorry Dick but you flunk the basic scratch-and-sniff test!   Helpfully putting a distractionary spin on it all, Dick encourages us to forget the patent scandal, and rally instead behind BT and its long-awaited vectoring roll-out!   Whoopee-doo!

And that's not even touching upon the BTCare forums; where the commentary is about as trite as it could possibly get!  I love the bloke who feigns idiocy in his written English, and "simulates rather too obviously the workmanship of an illiterate person" (to quote the Gunpowder Plot!).  Yet punctuates his nonsense with a very clear, insider knowledge of BT's VDSL2 offering! 

Hmm..   Like all corporate monsters, BT fights very dirty, especially with the media in its pocket!

[1] http://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.php/2014/11/uk-court-appeal-rules-bt-fttc-broadband-infringes-assia-patents.html
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Dray

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Re: RAMBo being shut down?
« Reply #79 on: November 30, 2014, 11:28:00 PM »

Care to provide a link to "the bloke who feigns idiocy in his written English, and "simulates rather too obviously the workmanship of an illiterate person" please?
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pedro492

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Re: RAMBo being shut down?
« Reply #80 on: December 01, 2014, 12:01:50 AM »


Aww, let that be left as an exercise to the reader  :-X
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kitz

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Re: RAMBo being shut down?
« Reply #81 on: December 01, 2014, 12:47:32 AM »

Good Grief.  :shrug2:
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kitz

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Re: RAMBo being shut down?
« Reply #82 on: December 01, 2014, 12:56:16 AM »

Care to provide a link to "the bloke who feigns idiocy in his written English, and "simulates rather too obviously the workmanship of an illiterate person" please?

Im not sure - perhaps he means Valthos
https://community.bt.com/t5/BT-Infinity-Speed-Connection/Court-case-forces-Openreach-to-turn-off-Dynamic-Line-Management/m-p/1417100/highlight/true#M157374

..  and if so... 

Quote
"simulates rather too obviously the workmanship of an illiterate person" (to quote the Gunpowder Plot!).  Yet punctuates his nonsense with a very clear, insider knowledge of BT's VDSL2 offering!

thats rubbish, because the guy hasnt got a clue.

Quote
if you get CRCs more than 10 per day you going interleave..

he probably picked that up from an overheard conversation with an OR engineer in the pub.   Thats not insider information  ???
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Black Sheep

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Re: RAMBo being shut down?
« Reply #83 on: December 01, 2014, 07:25:57 AM »

"Like all corporate monsters, BT fights very dirty, especially with the media in its pocket!"

I've never quite seen it as BT having the reporting media on their side ?? If anything, they generally come under micro-scrutiny looking for ways to sensationalise a story to their detriment.
It's well-known by now that the patent was infringed, but like all technologies it was from what I read, infringed in a way that would benefit the EU ? Of course, I completely understand ASSIA wanting to protect their asset and taking the actions they did. But the rest of your post, Pedro, is pure conspiracist theories imho.
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c6em

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Re: RAMBo being shut down?
« Reply #84 on: December 01, 2014, 09:10:00 AM »

Although I'm not a great fan of BT, in this example I tend to side with them.
Such a software patent would probably not have been granted in the UK.
So what we have here is a patent troll trying to strong arm BT.
Not greatly different to say someone cybersquatting a domain name and then trying to force a big company to pay out millions to buy it.

Notice how ASSIA post DLM switch off suddenly changed tack and came out with how BT turning the DLM off is going to significantly disadvantage customers.
Clearly they thought that BT would pay up.
Instead they have miscalculated and BT have found it cheaper to develop their own version or sufficiently modify the existing one so as not to infringe the patent.

So ASSIA will be left with sweet FA.
Furthermore if BT really developed their system they might market it to ASSIA's existing customers
Which might put ASSIA up sheet creek with no paddle.

This is all international negotiating.
Someone with something everyone wants can charge what they like until a point comes when the rest have had enough of being price gouged and start developing their own system.
Once BT has got some negotiating power (by having a working system) BT will go back to ASSIA and offer them a few pence royalties for their continuing use of it.
After that who knows what will be the outcome.

I tend to the view that the end result will be BT will develop their own and ASSIA will be told to take a running jump...
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Mark07

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Re: RAMBo being shut down?
« Reply #85 on: December 01, 2014, 01:07:13 PM »

Knowing my luck they'll have disabled it just as I'm waiting for it to put me back up to my original (minus crosstalk) sync after a line fault  ::)
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pedro492

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Re: RAMBo being shut down?
« Reply #86 on: December 01, 2014, 08:24:06 PM »

what we have here is a patent troll trying to strong arm BT.

Four British judges sitting in the UK's High Court and Court of Appeal have all ruled in favour of ASSIA, in four separate judgments to date.

Likewise in four opposition proceedings brought before the European Patent Office; patent examiners there too have rejected BT's arguments. ASSIA's patents for its DLM inventions are valid and BT is infringing them.  Case closed.

At some point BT has got to stop digging, hold its hands up, utter those magic words (mea culpa) and cough up.

But, as we can see, BT (via its shills and stooges) would prefer, still, to argue otherwise!

It's also a bit low to slight Professor John Cioffi and associates as patent trolls.  They hold over 400 patents in the field of DSL.   Cioffi personally filed 105 of them. [1]

Reasonably enough, Cioffi & Co called The Register to task for just this: accusing them of being patent trolls; The Register has since acknowledged that it was wrong and retracted its slur. [2]

Cioffi is recognised as one of the Fathers of DSL; all serious literature on DSL acknowledges his place in history.  Without Cioffi and his company ASSIA Inc., we would still be communicating with acoustic couplers, bean cans, damp string, and such like. In fact, with BT's decrepit and under-invested network, it often seems like we still are!  :blush:

Quote
Notice how ASSIA post DLM switch off suddenly changed tack and came out with how BT turning the DLM off is going to significantly disadvantage customers. Clearly they thought that BT would pay up.

According to the High Court judgment, it is, in fact, the other way. (see para.15 of [3] )

It was BT, and not ASSIA, arguing that millions of customers would be affected if it was held to infringe (which it was):

This, from the Dec 2013 approved judgment of Mr Justice Birss:

Quote from: Mr Justice Birss (3 Dec 2013)
At one point in the argument BT's counsel were anxious to point out that if BT is held to infringe, this may have an impact on all the home broadband connections provided by BT across the whole country.

So that was BT's puerile argument: "we're too grand to be held to account".

And isn't it interesting that BT's counsel cautioned that *all* of its home broadband connections (VDSL and ADSL) may be impacted by an injunction?  What ever is BT admitting? That its 20CN and 21CN DLM Systems (for ADSL) are infringing too?!

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ASSIA will be left with sweet FA...

Unsurprisingly, that's not a view shared by ASSIA.  Dave Burstein, one of its advisors, said "the potential royalties ASSIA may win are substantial"; he compared it to the TI vs Conexant patent case which resulted in a $70 million award to the claimant (TI).

It is surprising to see BT getting busted here, and on British soil.  In previous altercations with the UK courts, it has managed to curry favour in the right places, to see off legal actions for obvious wrongdoing; e.g. over its involvement in unlawful espionage in the Phorm scandal, and in the earlier Crabtree Ruling from 1997.  [4]

What does this all mean for the consumer though?   Many FTTC subscribers are reporting that with no DLM, they're finding their lines are stuck on highly capped profiles with heavy interleaving.    Not fit for purpose then; not as described.  Consumer compensation on the cards?   Let's hope so.
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[1] http://web.stanford.edu/group/cioffi/doc/cioffi-patent-list.pdf
[2] http://www.theregister.co.uk/2014/11/26/bt_starts_shutting_pulling_patentinfringing_boxes_from_dsl_network/  (see the "bootnote")
[3] http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/Patents/2013/3768.html
[4] http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/news/8438461/BT-and-Phorm-how-an-online-privacy-scandal-unfolded.html
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broadstairs

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Re: RAMBo being shut down?
« Reply #87 on: December 01, 2014, 09:17:58 PM »

I have refrained from commenting on this so far however I will now in particular about software patents.

Whatever the actual outcome of this case I do believe that in principle software patents are very hard to justify, basically you are attempting to patent a string of zeros and ones in a particular order which to my view is ridiculous. I have never thought they were a good idea and are a charter for money making no more or less, however we are where we are.

BT are perfectly within their rights to attempt to prove they should not be held liable and they lost, so they have taken a decision which again they are perfectly entitled to do. Assia do not have a god given right to expect BT or any other company to roll over and pay them royalties. Whether BT's decision will be right or not in the long term remains to be seen, yes it may impact users or BT may have already decided internally how to proceed and we may well see something much sooner come out to replace the code which part of this case. I do expect internally BT were already preparing to manage this in case they lost - at least I would expect an competent organisation to do this. Patent disputes can be a minefield and it can be very hard to predict the outcome so you have to be prepared for it to go either way.

There is no point in criticising either company here, it is business and it's cut-throat.

Stuart
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Black Sheep

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Re: RAMBo being shut down?
« Reply #88 on: December 01, 2014, 09:23:37 PM »

I do expect internally BT were already preparing to manage this in case they lost - at least I would expect an competent organisation to do this. Patent disputes can be a minefield and it can be very hard to predict the outcome so you have to be prepared for it to go either way.

I can categorically state that this was/is the case, Stuart. As you allude to, it would have been sheer madness to have adopted a stance of, 'We will win'.
 
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Balb0wa

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Re: RAMBo being shut down?
« Reply #89 on: December 01, 2014, 10:27:39 PM »

well my interleaving came down at 4.30am this morning, 16ms to 8ms , so something still working.
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