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[Mark07]

Afternoon guys, long time lurker first time poster   

Upgraded to FTTC a couple of months back, estimated between 43 - 61Mbps down / 11-17Mbps up, however I'm currently syncing at a disappointing 38Mbps / 7Mbps which Openreach are putting down to the fact the cable from the jointbox at the end of the street (50m away maybe?) is "probably" aluminium. When it was first installed it was syncing at 52/6, then eventually fell to 43, and now 38/39, Plusnet say there is no crosstalk showing on their tests.

Had 3 engineer visits, 1st guy said he didn't have time on the job to trace where the fault was, second one (supposedly boost from plusnet) said there was no faults so he left (he had a total "cant be arsed" attitude) third time was the first guy again who actually went up the DP (pole) to check a few things but unfortunately no spair pairs to try to move me to 

He said he tested at the jointbox and was getting 58/20 there, and agreed it wasn't right for me to be losing so much sync in such a short distance but there was nothing he could do.

Really my question is, am I stuck with this or is it worth fighting to get OR to do something else? I know they aren't going to replace the cable (if it is aluminium) just for one customer with no actual faults, but is there anything else that could be done?

Stats below, thanks in advance. (DLM resynced me around 6am, no other drop outs / synced upstream is higher than max attainable upstream?)

Code: [Select]

xdslcmd info --stats
xdslcmd: ADSL driver and PHY status
Status: Showtime
Retrain Reason: 2
Max: Upstream rate = 7564 Kbps, Downstream rate = 45528 Kbps
Path: 0, Upstream rate = 7882 Kbps, Downstream rate = 39697 Kbps

Link Power State: L0
Mode: VDSL2 Annex B
VDSL2 Profile: Profile 17a
TPS-TC: PTM Mode
Trellis: U:ON /D:ON
Line Status: No Defect
Training Status: Showtime
Down Up
SNR (dB): 5.6 5.5
Attn(dB): 0.0 0.0
Pwr(dBm): 12.1 3.9
VDSL2 framing
Path 0
B: 63 238
M: 1 1
T: 64 33
R: 16 16
S: 0.0513 0.9641
L: 12478 2116
D: 629 1
I: 80 255
N: 80 255
Counters
Path 0
OHF: 11510587 733794
OHFErr: 36 16
RS: 2210032392 2071364
RSCorr: 405334 36
RSUnCorr: 1292 0

Path 0
HEC: 355 0
OCD: 0 0
LCD: 0 0
Total Cells: 2170047284 0
Data Cells: 21303901 0
Drop Cells: 0
Bit Errors: 0 0

ES: 320 83
SES: 10 0
UAS: 58 58
AS: 28451

Path 0
INP: 3.00 0.00
PER: 2.46 15.90
delay: 8.00 0.00
OR: 77.98 20.11

Bitswap: 5602 19

Total time = 1 days 17 hours 29 min 7 sec
FEC: 1038378297 266
CRC: 4708 84
ES: 320 83
SES: 10 0
UAS: 58 58
LOS: 9 0
LOF: 10 0
Latest 15 minutes time = 14 min 7 sec
FEC: 19693 0
CRC: 0 0
ES: 0 0
SES: 0 0
UAS: 0 0
LOS: 0 0
LOF: 0 0
Previous 15 minutes time = 15 min 0 sec
FEC: 4089 2
CRC: 0 1
ES: 0 1
SES: 0 0
UAS: 0 0
LOS: 0 0
LOF: 0 0
Latest 1 day time = 17 hours 29 min 7 sec
FEC: 28589915 70
CRC: 2076 23
ES: 36 23
SES: 5 0
UAS: 20 20
LOS: 4 0
LOF: 5 0
Previous 1 day time = 24 hours 0 sec
FEC: 272455669 61
CRC: 2135 15
ES: 101 15
SES: 5 0
UAS: 20 20
LOS: 5 0
LOF: 5 0
Since Link time = 7 hours 54 min 9 sec
FEC: 405334 36
CRC: 36 16
ES: 13 16
SES: 0 0
UAS: 0 0
LOS: 0 0
LOF: 0 0
#

[boost]

When it was first installed it was syncing at 52/6

Sounds like an *actual* fault to me?

I've no idea what you will actually achieve but I would suggest removing your understanding of the metallic path from the situation because the reality is, you've lost 20Mb~ from point of install to now; the reason is irrelevant to you.

OR appear to have abandoned ADSL faults but FTTC is their favourite pet as it's supposed to at least pretend to match Virgin's product.

Keep pushing, IMHO

[Chrysalis]

first thing is I think plusnet's GEA tests (well openreach) crosstalk detection is rubbish, I think they cant really detect it as such with existing remote tests.  e.g. That test on my line reported no faults, and no crosstalk yet the line had loss in excess of 50% of its dsl signal, clearly it was either crosstalk or a technical issue, so that test isnt a be all and end all, although the GEA tester will mark it as failed (faulty) if it detects a speed drop of 25% or more within a short period of time which it did to me.  What is your current BTw estimate, although I have the belief point of sale estimate should be used, they will use the live estimate, the live estimate also will be at the bottom of the GEA test result which plusnet usually post in the ticket area if they run a test, so even if you talked to them over the phone they open a ticket and you may see the results in that ticket.

Now with your speed, we assume your live estimate is 43 (they usually use the bottom end of clean speed range).  You had a drop from 53 to 43 and then a further drop to 38. 53 to 43 is pretty much 20%, however 53 to 38 is unless I did my maths wrong is 28%.  The question how long did it take to get from 53 to 38 as to get a FAIL for 25% speed loss I think it has to be within a short period of time.  I dont think you going to get a fix for the estimate as they will say 38 is too close to 43.

If you see GEA has failed for this (or another reason) print it out so you have a hard copy.  Then openreach are duty bound to use reasonable effort to fix the problem, saying "oh its ali mate tough luck" and then leaving is not reasonable effort.

[Mark07]

Thanks for the advice guys.

I wanted to push it further but when the third OR SFI guy was here he called Plusnet and told them I was at the end of the run and there was nothing they could do, so Plusnet won't take it any further 

It dropped from 52 to 43ish about a week after it was installed and the first OR guy came to look at why the upstream was so slow, when he left it was at 43, and now they say that's the maximum, I wish I'd got some kind of proof of that sync now, but I guess it's too late.

I'm pretty sure it's got to be crosstalk, I know a few other properties have had fibre installed since me, so it makes logical sense, and as Chrysalis says I'm not confident in how accurate PN's GEA crosstalk test is...

[Chrysalis]

The GEA test result also shows the last 3 sync speeds, current and 2 older ones, so thats a way of proof.

I had the same BS!! of previous engineers, I have had claims 80mbit is impossible, claims my previous sync speeds I imagined, the list goes on.  One told me that the estimate given to me by his employer openreach is for those close to the cabinet haha, so in his eyes people next to the cabinet estimated 73mbit? yeah right.  Then I showed a guy my GEA result printout as well as a printout of the BTw estimate, he didnt try to BS!! me on the speed but then still left without trying anything.  Thankfully I got my install engineer on Wednesday and he is someone who takes pride in his job, so I got there in the end.  But under the t&c of your service I think you will have a hard time unless that GEA shows a fail, did you check your ticket like I said? if its missing, ask them to carry one out and show you the results.

[Mark07]

Whoops, I totally missed that part!

(Before it fell to 38)

Sync Status: In Sync
Downstream Speed: 41.5 Mbps
Upstream Speed: 7.0 Mbps
Profile Name: 27M-54M Downstream, Interleaving Low - 3.6M-7.2M Upstream, Interleaving Off
Voice Line Test Result: Pass
Bridge Tap: Not Detected
Radio Frequency Ingress: Not Detected
Repetitive Electrical Impulse Noise: Not Detected
Cross Talk: Not Detected

[Black Sheep]

Then openreach are duty bound to use reasonable effort to fix the problem, saying "oh its ali mate tough luck" and then leaving is not reasonable effort.

Before you go cracking the big whip Mark, what Chrysalis says above is obviously correct. No decent engineer would ever do that anyway.

What you do need to know is that we have specific guidelines to follow (As agreed by all ISP's, Openreach and Ofcom), as to how to test. Whether me, you, Chrys or The Pope think it should be different matters not …….. it is what it is.
If these tests pass, then end of chat. If they don't, then something needs to be remedied ….. end of chat.

What we won't be doing is spending months jumping in every joint, trying to find something that isn't there. There has to be a practical or reasonable cut-off point.

That said, I'm not disputing your claims, or what the engineers did or didn't do. It's just for others looking on, I know that when a tale is told, exaggerations make the story sound bigger and better. We're all guilty of it. So if anyone is thinking of joining in with their own issues, tell it straight so as to be able to gauge what the issue may be.

Back to you, Mark. I have a line spun from gold, and I have lost around 15Meg due to Crosstalk, and I'm on brand new 0.5mm Copper cable all the way. Crosstalk is there, it exists. Aluminium cable is utterly sh1te at noise-rejection in comparison to Copper. So, you really could be in a position whereby there is nothing more that can be done due to the legacy cable in the ground.

Another point for all to bear in mind is the predicted speeds. They are based on calculations only to the main DP (Distribution Point). The actual premises could be another 1.5Km from this point, so trying to insist an engineer achieve the predicted speeds is like asking the laws of physics to be re-written.

Again, this isn't aimed at anyone in particular, just getting the point over that just because your speeds have dropped it does not automatically follow you have an MPF issue. I reiterate, I have lost 15meg from my original synch purely down to cross-talk.

By all means pursue this if you are certain there is a fault causing the speed-drops, but for anyone looking in on this, there's only so much OR and the ISP's will do before the hefty charges start making their way to your doorstep. Each case is different, lets not just assume it's always an Openreach problem.   

[Mark07]

Thanks for the reply Black Sheep, it's good to hear it from the other side!

I think I'll just stick with what I've got and hopefully maybe someday we'll get Fttdp 

The 1st / 3rd guy did say he was going to 1040 (I think) the box at the bottom of my pole as it looked like it hasn't been opened since everything was installed in the 70's, but it doesn't look like that is going to be replaced, no one turned up and this was the end of July

[NewtronStar]

It may be a good time to start some stats recording to get some kind of ongoing picture of your line stats, using HG612_Modem_stats or Dslstats with these programs you may be able to find or trace where the problem may lie.

[burakkucat]

The 1st / 3rd guy did say he was going to 1040 (I think) the box at the bottom of my pole . . .

I wonder if that was a reference to an A1024? It is a defect label which is attached to the item of plant in question.

See this link for an example.

[Chrysalis]

Yeah sadly it seems the isp's contract with openreach seems weak as if they allowed themselves to be stepped over.

However the contract between openreach and them is not necessarily relevant to your contract with your isp.  It may absolve openreach but might not absolve your isp. e.g. on the charges they only supposed to be applied if openreach (or rather the isp) take reasonable measures to prove the service is not faulty (and?) something internal to your property is the cause.  Yet at the same time openreach's contract is at odds with this that allows them to consider a property fault free if the JDSU and GEA tests both pass.  In this situation the isp may have to let the end user out of contract with no penalty but still be obliged to honour their own contract with BTw as well as waiving engineer fee's to the end user but still having to pay openreach.

Regarding estimated speeds, if openreach are in some cases estimating at large distances from properties and then isp's are using those figures in sales then they are actually in breach with the ASA.  Whilst they only estimates, reasonable efforts are meant to be made to provide a degree of accuracy.  Indeed some isp's even state if the visiting engineer cannot reach the estimate or close to it, they will consider it a fault and if it cannot be fixed within X weeks of service starting the end user can leave penalty free.  I am not doubting what 'black sheep' (sorry for previous mistake) has said as he is an engineer, so he probably has it right regarding openreach policies and the agreements with isp's just some of it goes against the ASA and the t&c's with end users.  It pays to read contracts

This also then makes sense why so many engineers walk when the JDSU gives a pass, as thats their protocol.

[burakkucat]

Chys -- You have confused an avian with a ruminant! 

[Black Sheep]

Ha ha ...... I'll take that accolade, any day of the week. 

PS ....... B*Cat is absolutely spot-on with his comments. The engineer would have been inputting an A1024 for faulty or defective plant. 

[Mark07]

Thanks for the replies guys,

I'm going to look at getting something setup later tonight so I can keep an eye on what's going on.

Yep it was to replace the joint box / frame as he said it looked like it hadn't been touched since the 70's, that could be causing issues and it could do with replacing, however no one has been out so I'm guessing they're either taking forever, or someone somewhere down the line has said no and cancelled it?

Either way I'm not sure how I can get PN to get someone out to do anything else, everyone I've had round have just said there's no faults so not much else they can do other than the 1st / 3rd guy who was spot on and tried to get the box replaced, all of these were supposedly "boost" engineers according to Plusnet, which I was under the impression were supposed to check routing / connectors etc to see if they can improve it no matter if there is a fault or not, but none of them really did this.

He also mentioned if I was to get another line then more copper would have to be run as there are no spare pairs on my DP / pole, I'm not sure if he was hinting I should do this or just a passing comment, if I did do this would it involve new copper from the cab to the pole or would it end up using the same Ali my current pair is on?

[Black Sheep]

A1024's are mainly retrospective-type jobs. IE: They are prioritised, and I would say that re-framing a box would be waaaay down the list, as it would need to go to our contractors anyway ?? I can't comment conclusively as each area's workstacks are different, but around my area, you'd be lucky to see that done in the next 12months, as it's not deemed to be service-affecting ??

For info ...... 'Boost' engineering tasks mean we have to make sure you get DSL service, be it a router/Hub, network or Exchange fault. TBH, SFI tasks are exactly the same barring the ability to swop the router should that be proven to be faulty.
The only way we can't satisfy a 'Boost' task is for matters beyond our control, ie: health & safety, no spare DSL ports etc .....
It seems you have got DSL service, and I can only assume the various mandatory tests have passed ?? PN have access to all the tests, so if there were anomalies, they could quite easily have another job raised.

Regarding checking all connectors etc .......... a fallacy I'm afraid. As mooted many times on here already, if the mandatory tests pass and there appears to be nothing wrong with the circuit. Then that's it, job completed. If (on ADSL) there is mention of slow-speeds, then we may check for a better 'Cable to Cab', but this isn't always expected of us.

If your DP is full (No spares), then only by ordering another line to your house would something get done about the line-plant shortage. Without knowing the geography of your Cab to DP, it's impossible to say where a new cable would be provisioned. If it's anything over 50mtrs, I would humbly suggest they would just joint the new cable onto an existing cable that does have spare capacity. The planners would be responsible for this.