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Author Topic: Stolen Pairs  (Read 4318 times)

HighBeta

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Stolen Pairs
« on: April 02, 2014, 07:39:52 PM »

Interesting, troubling and sadly not surprising.

http://www.okcheersbye.co.uk/kelly-communications/

Kelly(s) Procedure being :
c
Quote
roc clip the line
listen for dialtone
do the “123 test”
do 17070 to establish the number
check the number with “Numbering” to ensure it is a stopped line



RevK's Blog
http://revk.www.me.uk/2014/03/stolen-copper.html
« Last Edit: April 02, 2014, 07:47:35 PM by HighBeta »
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Black Sheep

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Re: Stolen Pairs
« Reply #1 on: April 02, 2014, 08:17:22 PM »

It's never been 'Procedure' or 'Practice' to ring 123 to check for a 'Stopped' or 'TOS' circuit.

We dial (1470) 17070, get the telephone number and ring it from our mobile. If it gives the 'NU' tone, we then try ringing back our own mobile and if this also gives the 'NU' tone, then it is a true 'Stop'/'TOS'. Both tests need to be carried out as we have ICB and OCB circuits.

There are also 'Data only' circuits (ie: No dial tone) in our network (Private Wires - SDSL). If a proper blue 'Butt Set' (Tapper) is used, it will give an audible signal that voltage is present, and therefore the pair shouldn't be 'pinched'.

There is also the 'Camouflaged pair' that doesn't have any conditions present whilst 'Tapping a joint out'. We have a couple on our patch that are now thankfully labelled up. Both are what we locally term as a 'piggy back circuit', and are alarm triggers for our local water-board underground reservoirs. We are told by them, that when the bottom res is nearly full it triggers the alarm (applies voltage) to the 'Camouflaged pair', which is in turn is connected to the top res and informs it to start draining/pumping or something more technical.

These pairs were sometimes inadvertently 'pinched' by our own UG engineers, and I can understand the reasons why.

 
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Ronski

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Re: Stolen Pairs
« Reply #2 on: April 02, 2014, 09:06:49 PM »

My brothers pair was stolen on the day after his phone was connected. He saw an engineer up the pole, then the next day when his broadband was due to be activated he discovered his line was dead. This was the 29th February, and he finally got broadband on the 3rd May. There was a lack of good lines, and my guess is that someone else ordered broadband that was on a DACS, and the engineer stole my brothers line (perhaps the records hadn't updated) and when he was reconnected they put him on a Dacs.

In the end I raised a CEO level complaint and it was fixed within a week, anybody interested can read the whole sorry tale here.
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kitz

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Re: Stolen Pairs
« Reply #3 on: April 03, 2014, 01:02:48 AM »

>>> It's never been 'Procedure' or 'Practice' to ring 123 to check for a 'Stopped' or 'TOS' circuit.

Im speed reading, but I got the impression that he said that was what Kellys - not BT - were doing.

Seriously how much must it cost BT to rectify BT contractor mistakes.   We all know the contractors cut corners. :/

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Black Sheep

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Re: Stolen Pairs
« Reply #4 on: April 03, 2014, 07:26:45 AM »

I too 'Speed read' (as I always do), and was under the impression that some of that lengthy posting, 'Lumped' us and the contractors together when giving his 'facts' ?? That's what our friendly cat is here for, to proof-read everything.  ;) ;D

However it appears in text, or the implications/accusations, Kelly and Quinn's are expected to follow Openreach procedures, not their own, and my post was trying to put over what those procedures are.

I truly despair at the level of service given, from a percentage of individuals on 'Contract' !!. OR engineers have access to an on-line 'Formwize' document to give feedback on tasks we have to re-visit. I personally have filled in umpteen, and have never had any kind of acknowledgement that they have received it, let alone that remedial action will be taken !! It's a major irritant to us, as 'Them above' do not seem to listen to our pleas ??!!
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HighBeta

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Re: Stolen Pairs
« Reply #5 on: April 04, 2014, 08:00:22 PM »

Didn't mean to make Black Sheep choke on his morning brew  :-[ :)

Its all about kelly(s) & how their Not following BT procedures.

The most telling part is how Kelly(s) seem to be blissfully unaware reputation.
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Black Sheep

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Re: Stolen Pairs
« Reply #6 on: April 04, 2014, 08:03:48 PM »

 :lol: Head-in-sand mentality, mate.
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burakkucat

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Re: Stolen Pairs
« Reply #7 on: April 04, 2014, 08:29:57 PM »

So here I am, theoretically, (a) sitting in front of a cabinet or (b) with my back feet and tail down a hole or (c) strapped to the top of a pole with an array of joints before me. I take the appropriate device and connect it across a particular pair. It tells me if there is any voltage present. In high impedance, monitor mode I check for any audible signal. If nothing is noticed, I loop the pair. If "dialling" tone is returned, I key in 17070 and listen to what Beattie tells me with regards to the circuit.  :)

Kelly Communications:-X  Numpties!  ::)

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kitz

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Re: Stolen Pairs
« Reply #8 on: April 07, 2014, 12:27:27 PM »

Its all about kelly(s) & how their Not following BT procedures.

Yep - that was the impression that I got.   Making up their own rules and shortcuts as they went along and sod BT procedure. :?
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HighBeta

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Re: Stolen Pairs
« Reply #9 on: April 07, 2014, 05:13:44 PM »

^Yep^ :)

BTO are also not happy with procedures not being followed/made up ect.

Part of BTO's statement to PC PRO
Quote
".......We do not condone impacting one customer's service to restore another's, and we take such allegations very seriously. We would encourage anybody with any evidence of this activity to report it to Openreach immediately and we will investigate."

http://www.pcpro.co.uk/news/broadband/387892/broadband-dead-perhaps-bts-reused-your-line
« Last Edit: April 07, 2014, 05:18:57 PM by HighBeta »
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waltergmw

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Re: Stolen Pairs
« Reply #10 on: April 21, 2014, 02:21:46 PM »

Gentlefolk,

I hope, stating the obvious, that some part of the BT Group responsible for placing sub contract orders has agreed a price with both major subcontractors against some form of task description. Amongst other things, I know that subcontractors are NOT allowed to draw any paper towels from BT stores. I mention this to illustrate that the contract is quite obviously constructed for the absolute minimum cost to the BT Group and there seems little or no concern over the practical results. At best the end user is oblivious of this situation and accepts the results as the optimum the line can support, especially as it takes a minimum (usually) of two days before DLM defines a lower operating speed. There are often varying degrees of even worse situations as are being described here and elsewhere.

In their defence, I do question how a usually untrained subcontractor can possibly be expected to react in a pro-active manner when (s)he is unable to monitor the end result comprehensively, other than using the 17070 facilities and a speed test NOT provided by the BT Group (as the uncompleted job prevents full access to the BT one). Compare that with the JDSU approach where the results are, I believe, uploaded into a BT Database. This can only produce gross anomalies between BT O installations and subcontract ones with the latter having no useful connection data recorded to help subsequent fault finding operations. (However I do suspect that ongoing modem performance data for all ccts. is recorded.)

I will add two local examples:-

1.   A free (Unadopted) primary school obtained a VDSL service in mid January. Within a couple of weeks only the VDSL signal disappeared. It is now expected to be a) a faulty filter block, b) IDC block wiring fault or c) a faulty line card port. It took BT Openreach about six weeks, including the suggestion of total cable replacement, before a well-versed visiting BT O engineer spotted that the ports were not being counted properly as Huawei cabinets start counting from zero and not 1. This resulted in the engineers and their control staff confusing each other at length upon several occasions. (It also begs the question as to whether the PCPs will be rewired or spare intermediate ports properly recorded when eventually the line card(s) are replaced, hopefully testing every filter block too.)

2.  A subcontract VDSL service was installed on 24 January on a longer line with a BT Wholesale estimate of 17.9 Mbps download. The initial sync speed was only 3.86 Mbps. A certain wheelbarrow, complete with the invaluable assistance from members of this society, happened by. The immediate diagnosis was a bridged tap due to star wiring in the attic, where of course the contractor had not ventured. After that was cured, the sync speed improved immediately to 4.69 Mbps. We then entered pantomime mode with India eventually resulting in a BT O visit on 1 February to discover a poor quality pair in the final u/g cable with a marginal increase of sync to 6.39 which crept up to 10.22 Mbps on 6 February, but fluctuated down to 8.70 Mbps. As we had an unlocked modem monitoring the line we observed that the Hlog graph still had a significant anomaly. A further BT Openreach visit was organised with difficulty and a crossed pair was discovered. Once that was corrected the sync speed hurtled up to 15.04 Mbps on 17 February. The sad situation though is that the line is still quite noisy so by 19 February the sync speed had dropped to 13.12 Mbps and 12.09 by 28 February. VERY SADLY the speed has returned to 6.40 Mbps by 22 March. BT’s line test facilities report no fault found and the end user is so totally disenchanted with the hideous difficulties faced to rectify the situation he has resigned himself to a quite unsatisfactory mediocre service still running today at 6.39 Mbps.

You might all wish to question the medium term maintenance prospects for current FTTC deployments.

Kind regards,
Walter
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Black Sheep

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Re: Stolen Pairs
« Reply #11 on: April 21, 2014, 05:30:26 PM »

The blame is 50-50 IMO.

We (BT), appear to have been extremely lax in vetting, and subsequent auditing of our contractors (Kellie, Quinns, Telent). An absolute crying shame, as they seem to have gone for 'Quick gain' rather than quality, and are no doubt playing the percentages game that approx 60-70% of their work will be easy (One socket installations) and will have no repercussions ?? That, will obviously never be said in any official statement but it is the only reason i see, as to why we still retain the services of these extremely poorly trained engineers.

It is that last comment that would have me question your (Walters) comment about the lack of equipment given to contractors. Take it from me, the comment about not being able to book paper towels out from our 'Stores' is little more than sensationalism. I see contractors every week booking a multitude of stores items direct from the depot. They are stood next to me when doing so.
However, I do agree a two-tier system is in operation for the EU. That being, you have more chance of gaining a 'Decent job' if you have an OR engineering visit, than one of the alternatives.
Yes, OR staff mostly have access to the latest testers, but woefully, a very high percentage won't know what the hell the results are telling them …….. and they get days worth of training courses to help them interpret the results !! So, there's not a cat-in-hell's chance that BT are going to 'Give' JDSU/EXFO's to our contractors, as most of them don't even know what the word 'Voltage' means ??

However you cut it up, contractors were the worst thing for BT, shortly followed by fast-tracked MOD staff. Both of which are working on our headline product of FTTC !! Madness.



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boost

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Re: Stolen Pairs
« Reply #12 on: June 05, 2014, 12:18:27 AM »

Interesting reading.

It's become a bit of a running joke in work about our MPF lines getting nicked :P

I didn't realise there was such a divide between native Openreach and the contractors. Might explain why I've had a few ADSL faults closed off as NFF despite massive SNR swings day and night, in some cases.

Choosing 'named engineer' seems to have sorted that out though :)


As a complete aside, what does it take to work 'on behalf' of BT? I have had to change master sockets in the past (which I did not want to do and probably do not fully understand how best to do) for family in case 'BT' attend, NFF and TRC them despite the 'master' being an LJU and the ADSL down negotiated to less than 1Mb on a 36dB line. This is after a long conversation with someone in a far away land who's DSL knowledge was probably akin to my grandparents. Trying explaining to India you don't actually have a test socket and see how far you get :)

If the customer has to have a long hard think about whether they log a fault and risk getting whacked with a 100~ quid charge then I would suggest something is wrong.

How many different types of BT tech are there now? Line engineer? SFI? SFI2? Frames? What else? Isn't every bit of copper up and down the country sporting some sort of extended ethernet?

Then you come on here and it's full of uber knowledgeable BT peeps.

The mind boggles! :)
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