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[Black Sheep]

Tristan quoted ...................

"I get the impression the people called out are 'installers' rather than engineers".

As a qualified Electrical Engineer, I can understand your comments fully. But for pedants sake, the term 'Engineer' has been banded about for eon's when referring to 'us' Openreach guys. God only knows who or how it became so, but I can tell you that it wasn't from BT. As far back as I can remember, we have always been known professionally as 'Technicians'.

Only when I was on the 'Power & BES' group was I referred to as a 'Power engineer'. On this side of the fence, dependant on skill set, we are called Technician 2B (T2B), Technician 2A (T2A), and the following are grades that are still tagged to individuals, but are now obsolete and will be lost as and when the individuals retire. They are Technician 1 (T1), Senior Technician (ST) and Technical Officer (TO).

As you will see, nowhere in our descrip do we refer to ourselves as 'engineers'. So the term is protected as far as BT are concerned.

That's interesting. Thanks for the input. Who would be the best person to get this escalated to? A TO? I'm not sure who has been coming out but as they are on their own they can't check any individual stretch of line for us (they need 3 people I think to operate the cherry picker?) - each says it needs escalated so I guess we are gradually working our way up the ranks!

Bear in mind this is BT we are talking about Tristan. It certainly does not follow that the higher the grading, the greater their level of knowledge. Maybe in other industries, but we seem to apply a 'Bottom-about-face' policy. This is a massive subject though, and not really for this thread. So in a nutshell, the chap/chapess you need is a 'Multi-skilled CSE with Broadband and Fibre skills'. These are actually T2A's (like myself), and although they are amongst the lower paid technicians, they actually know far more than the other obsolete ranks. Pole-testers are T1 ranks, but don't know their left from their right  .   

[tristan]

Bear in mind this is BT we are talking about Tristan. It certainly does not follow that the higher the grading, the greater their level of knowledge. Maybe in other industries, but we seem to apply a 'Bottom-about-face' policy. This is a massive subject though, and not really for this thread. So in a nutshell, the chap/chapess you need is a 'Multi-skilled CSE with Broadband and Fibre skills'. These are actually T2A's (like myself), and although they are amongst the lower paid technicians, they actually know far more than the other obsolete ranks. Pole-testers are T1 ranks, but don't know their left from their right  .

Ahhhh. Interesting. That squares nicely with my experience. If only we could get someone who would check the line along the route! It does seem the older guys are a bit 'stuck in their ways' and don't quite cope with the changing pace. The last guy who came out recommended we got a 3G dongle for our internet needs! If only we had 3G coverage!

The best BT guy I ever met was a former BBC sound engineer (worked in the studios there recording orchestras and the like) who just loved signals, music and electronics. He fixed my BB in a flat in Glasgow and replaced the old linen(?) covered aluminium (it was silver and didn't look at all like copper) when he probably shouldn't have and seemed to really know his stuff. We had a great chat about hi-fis and speaker positioning.

Unfortunately, it wouldn't make any noticeable difference to place you on the 'Green/Black', as it would only apply to the span from your house to the telegraph pole. The 'Green/Black' doesn't go all the way back to the PCP I'm afraid.

Apparently we have aluminium cabling between us and the cabinet anyhow...

That is the current thinking of the guy out today who is muttering that our infinity 'should never have been installed'. Although they are still refusing to see where along the line his infinity diagnostic box stops syncing.

Am I wrong in thinking that a simple approach would be:

1) find a junction approx 1/2 way along the line
2) if diagnostic box syncs and shows all is fine, then
3) go along a 1/2 of the remaining distance to the next junction
4) repeat sync test
5) etc

They keep saying that the line is 'perfect' but the sense I get (again this is me managing this remotely) is that they are looking at voice frequencies and not higher ones...

[NewtronStar]

Sorry Tristan but at the very start of your thread I was amazed that OR/BT put you on Fibre with your very low line throughput at the start.

BT/OR should not have moved you to Fibre unless the your line was capable of 15megs +

If this was my line with FTTC I would end the contract with BT give OFcom a call or email

http://www.ofcom.org.uk/

[Black Sheep]

Sorry Tristan but at the very start of your thread I was amazed that OR/BT put you on Fibre with your very low line throughput at the start.

BT/OR should not have moved you to Fibre unless the your line was capable of 15megs +If this was my line with FTTC I would end the contract with BT give OFcom a call or email

http://www.ofcom.org.uk/

Incorrect. 'Sub 15 Meg' circuits have always been around, but once upon a time we had to ring every man and his dog to make sure everyone was happy for the circuit to remain on FTTC. The chap who had only ever got 0.5Meg was always more than happy to be getting (for example) 5Meg, and as such I have never reinstated a 'sub 15 Meg' product back to ADSL.

Plus, we don't need to ring anybody these days. If the EU is happy with 'Sub 15', then job done.

[burakkucat]

Further to Black Sheep's explanation of the Openreach policy, I would like to suggest that the consciousness of a 15 Mbps DS lower-limit has arisen from BT Retail's marketing of their Infinity products.

Please remember that BT Retail is just a CP who purchases a the GEA product from Openreach and then resells it to its own end-users with its own name, terms of supply, etc, applied to it. It is true to say that there are no BT Retail Infinity installations that are sub-15 Mbs DS. However they, BT Retail, do offer another product -- the name escapes me at the moment -- that is something like Faster Broadband with Fibre. It is all just a marketing exercise by BT Retail!   

[NewtronStar]

ah that may explain it burakkucat so Tristan is not on BT Infinity 1 or 2 he is using FTTC equipment but because its sub 15 Mbs it can't be call'd BT Infinity.

I wonder if tristan is still paying the £18.00 (BT Infinity 1) for his non BT infinity service ?

[tristan]

Cheers guys. Things are not looking good. And, yep, we are still paying full price!

The latest engineer said it should never have been installed. He checked our end (again), the cabinet (again) and removed any lightning protection. He didn't check the connection at any of the junctions along the way unfortunately and we still haven't had the 'boost' (is that the right term?) team out.

Attached are the line stats I ran at roughly 5 min intervals (there are a few gaps I think due to failed telnetting) from a few minutes (as long as it took me to write the script) from when he left to when I realised the line had gone to pot again. ATTDR is plotted on the 2nd Y axis.

As you can see the SNMR increases abruptly over 5 mins, just as the DS TxPwr drops along with the ATTDR. Would anyone car to hazard a guess why this would happen? Other than it being a long line of course... Also, is there anything else I could plot to shed any light? Now I have the script all I have to do is change the line number to read from my stats files.

Thanks,

Tristan

[NewtronStar]

Sorry Tristan but at the very start of your thread I was amazed that OR/BT put you on Fibre with your very low line throughput at the start.

BT/OR should not have moved you to Fibre unless the your line was capable of 15megs +If this was my line with FTTC I would end the contract with BT give OFcom a call or email

http://www.ofcom.org.uk/

Incorrect. 'Sub 15 Meg' circuits have always been around, but once upon a time we had to ring every man and his dog to make sure everyone was happy for the circuit to remain on FTTC. The chap who had only ever got 0.5Meg was always more than happy to be getting (for example) 5Meg, and as such I have never reinstated a 'sub 15 Meg' product back to ADSL.

Plus, we don't need to ring anybody these days. If the EU is happy with 'Sub 15', then job done.

And Black Sheep   if you came to me to buy a PC and I told you this will speed up your computing experience you hand me over your hard earned cash, then I tell you well it won't be as fast as I said it would be !

You would be peeved off or you would ask for your Money Back 
Job not done Right !!!

[Black Sheep]

Newtron .......... I was merely pointing out that your comment about 'Sub 15 Meg' was incorrect. There are thousands of this kind of connection out there.

If I was going to buy a PC from you, I would expect definitives about it's operating specification. This is because every component within that PC will be a 'known value'.
When ordering Broadband (ADSL or VDSL) there are so many 'unknowns', that only an estimate can be given. Granted, the early estimate the OP was given of 20Meg was amazingly wrong, but an estimate nontheless.

If there is no possible further enhancement on this OP's circuit, then I'm absolutely certain the OP would get his money back, especially if he presents proof of the '20Meg estimate'.

[NewtronStar]

Newtron .......... I was merely pointing out that your comment about 'Sub 15 Meg' was incorrect. There are thousands of this kind of connection out there.

If I was going to buy a PC from you, I would expect definitives about it's operating specification. This is because every component within that PC will be a 'known value'.
When ordering Broadband (ADSL or VDSL) there are so many 'unknowns', that only an estimate can be given. Granted, the early estimate the OP was given of 20Meg was amazingly wrong, but an estimate nontheless.

If there is no possible further enhancement on this OP's circuit, then I'm absolutely certain the OP would get his money back, especially if he presents proof of the '20Meg estimate'.

Well thats it somehow tristan was given an estimate of 20.4megs for FTTC he may have used the BT web site http://www.dslchecker.bt.com/adsl/adslchecker.welcome which gave him a 20.4mbps false estimate, but by the time you have signed up for FTTC with BT and then an engineer comes round to install the HG612 to find your only going to get 5Mbps it's to late your stuck in a 18 month contract 

[asbokid]

...
As you can see the SNMR increases abruptly over 5 mins, just as the DS TxPwr drops along with the ATTDR. Would anyone care to hazard a guess why this would happen? Other than it being a long line of course...

Downstream Transmitter Power is determined and controlled by the DSLAM.   Why is it doing that?   To mitigate DSL crosstalk onto other pairs, perhaps?  If the DSLAM transceiver's output power is being cut back - i.e., that's not a reporting error - I can't think of any other reason.

Also, is there anything else I could plot to shed any light?..

Maybe some physical tests with TDR equipment to discover whether there are any major points of impedance mismatch between your home and the cabinet. Those would cause reflection losses in the signal.  The abutment of aluminium and copper conductors in your line, if that's what you've got, doesn't sound very promising.

Did you previously have better bandwidth with ADSL?

cheers, a

[tristan]

Well thats it somehow tristan was given an estimate of 20.4megs for FTTC he may have used the BT web site http://www.dslchecker.bt.com/adsl/adslchecker.welcome which gave him a 20.4mbps false estimate, but by the time you have signed up for FTTC with BT and then an engineer comes round to install the HG612 to find your only going to get 5Mbps it's to late your stuck in a 18 month contract 

That's exactly what happened. We double, even triple, checked with the BT folk we could speak to in disbelief at the estimate before we signed up.

As part of the box ticking process yesterday we were asked to run the BT speedtest thing and report back; my mum (I can't run it remotely) accidentally put our number in the broadband checker and emailed me the estimate. Almost jumped for joy as if the problem had been resolved! Then I checked... 0.16 Mbps down, 0.6 up. Oh well.

[tristan]

...
As you can see the SNMR increases abruptly over 5 mins, just as the DS TxPwr drops along with the ATTDR. Would anyone care to hazard a guess why this would happen? Other than it being a long line of course...

Downstream Transmitter Power is determined and controlled by the DSLAM.   Why is it doing that?   To mitigate DSL crosstalk onto other pairs, perhaps?  If the DSLAM transceiver's output power is being cut back - i.e., that's not a reporting error - I can't think of any other reason.

Interesting. I've fed the graph and your suggestions (above and below) to BT via twitter. Hopefully it would get passed on to OR.

Also, is there anything else I could plot to shed any light?..

Maybe some physical tests with TDR equipment to discover whether there are any major points of impedance mismatch between your home and the cabinet. Those would cause reflection losses in the signal.  The abutment of aluminium and copper conductors in your line, if that's what you've got, doesn't sound very promising.

Would OR conduct such a test as a matter of course? ie, I assume they have a SOP/checklist they go through, and would this be on it? Anyhow, I've asked to have it done!

Did you previously have better bandwidth with ADSL?

We got a solid 512 kbps down and 256 up. I never bothered to pay for a higher speed as there was no guarantee of getting it! But again, when it rained or was overly windy this would drop off too - but it work afterwards.

We are preparing a nice letter to OFCOM in NI detailing all this. There seems to be less pressure on BT to upgrade/maintain their infrastructure in rural areas to actually support infinity. They have received public money to install the cabinets, and it mustn't be economic to make them of any use (we aren't the only people in our area to have this issue, one of the OR folk confided...). And then public money is also being spent to try and get coverage by other means: http://www.nwewn.com (awful website, but seemingly our only hope without finding a friendly person who'll allow us to stick a microwave transmitter on their property).

Tristan

[tristan]

As you can see the SNMR increases abruptly over 5 mins, just as the DS TxPwr drops along with the ATTDR. Would anyone care to hazard a guess why this would happen? Other than it being a long line of course...

Downstream Transmitter Power is determined and controlled by the DSLAM.   Why is it doing that?   To mitigate DSL crosstalk onto other pairs, perhaps?  If the DSLAM transceiver's output power is being cut back - i.e., that's not a reporting error - I can't think of any other reason.

Ahh, apparently, according to my mother, an engineer some engineers ago reduced the power on the line to make it more stable. The analogy he used was that of a leaky hosepipe. If you turn on the water pressure too high a lot of water will escape through the gaps. If you turn the pressure down you lose less along the way.

Is crosstalk a strong function of length? Or would, say, a really old bit of line that might have some damage along the way have higher crosstalk to a newer bit of line?

[asbokid]

Hi Tristan,

Would OR conduct such a test as a matter of course? ie, I assume they have a SOP/checklist they go through, and would this be on it? Anyhow, I've asked to have it done!

I don't know. Probably not.

We got a solid 512 kbps down and 256 up. I never bothered to pay for a higher speed as there was no guarantee of getting it! But again, when it rained or was overly windy this would drop off too - but it work afterwards.

That is very poor though, and unreliable too.  I would be tempted to run my own TDR tests on the line (in all weathers), to perhaps identify the reason and location of the fault.  And perhaps even DIY the repair to save Openreach any more trouble

We are preparing a nice letter to OFCOM in NI detailing all this. There seems to be less pressure on BT to upgrade/maintain their infrastructure in rural areas to actually support infinity. They have received public money to install the cabinets, and it mustn't be economic to make them of any use (we aren't the only people in our area to have this issue, one of the OR folk confided...). And then public money is also being spent to try and get coverage by other means: http://www.nwewn.com (awful website, but seemingly our only hope without finding a friendly person who'll allow us to stick a microwave transmitter on their property).

My views on re-nationising BT didn't go down very well last time, so I will keep them to myself!

The microwave p2p dishes can be quite discreet. A few weeks ago we were admiring a microwave p2p set-up on a very isolated farm of alpacas(!) on the Long Mynd (AONB) in the Welsh Borders.

cheers, a