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Author Topic: Need Help Diagnosing Fault  (Read 24814 times)

snadge

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Re: Need Help Diagnosing Fault
« Reply #45 on: July 24, 2012, 11:13:45 PM »

@ Gary - isnt that 2 hour thing just with ordinary Line Engineer? I was told by tier 2 tech rep at sky and the SNS Engineer that an LL14 Broadband Engineer has to stay all day until the problem is resolved.

is SFI a Broadband Engineer?, I always thought they were 2 different engineers - at least come across like that to me cos I could have sworn that when I had problems with the 1st BB Engineer he talked about getting in SFI, but i may be wrong.

anyway, they told me that they are supposed to stay all day until the problem is fixed and they are allowed to do anything physically possible to try and get your speed back such as shortening pair route if possible via pair diversion, changing cable etc etc - this was pointed out again by an annoyed sky rep when the 1st Broadband Engineer shot off after 4 hours putting in a new line to no avail (except fixing the phone problem).
« Last Edit: July 24, 2012, 11:24:26 PM by snadge »
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coolsnakeman

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Re: Need Help Diagnosing Fault
« Reply #46 on: July 25, 2012, 10:51:42 AM »

It depends how far down the chain you have gone. In a first fault visit for both PSTN and Broadband the time the engineers are given to fix the fault is 2 hours and that is across the board for OR. However if you have had mutliple visits with no resolution to your issue then it would be granted probably by a field manager to expand the length of time given to fix the fault and the field manager himself may want to attend the fault to supervise the engineer to make sure the job is done and the fault is fixed. That is my intake to this but BK and BS would probably be your best bet to confirm this as they work out in the field themselves.

Regards
Gary
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Black Sheep

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Re: Need Help Diagnosing Fault
« Reply #47 on: July 25, 2012, 01:35:09 PM »

It depends how far down the chain you have gone. In a first fault visit for both PSTN and Broadband the time the engineers are given to fix the fault is 2 hours and that is across the board for OR. However if you have had mutliple visits with no resolution to your issue then it would be granted probably by a field manager to expand the length of time given to fix the fault and the field manager himself may want to attend the fault to supervise the engineer to make sure the job is done and the fault is fixed. That is my intake to this but BK and BS would probably be your best bet to confirm this as they work out in the field themselves.

Regards
Gary

 :lol: :lol: :lol: I'm not laughing at you Gary, but that comment highlighted above, has just made my day mate. Field Managers wouldn't know if the engineer was doing a good job, a bad job or an average job. They are in effect data-analysts, they look at out i-Pop data ..... strike that .... they intensly scrutinise our i-Pop data, to see if they can scrape another 3 minutes worth of toil out of an individual. I have my own thoughts about BT 'management', but will leave it there.

Back to the question though ............... the '2 Hour rule' is the time given on the job. The i-Pop data expects us back within that time, and the ISP will pay us for this ammount of time. If we find a network fault during our investigations, then we are expected to work on until it is repaired. If all compliance tests pass at the EU's premises, and we can't find anything untoward, then off we go. We will not hang around waiting for it to rain, or for a gust of wind to blow the dropwire. It would be business suicide if we did.
If we can't find a fault when visiting the premises, we can still bring the internal installation 'up to par' if needed, within the 2 hrs paid for.

Hope that makes sense ?
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coolsnakeman

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Re: Need Help Diagnosing Fault
« Reply #48 on: July 25, 2012, 02:18:19 PM »

Yeah BS makes perfect sense. Well you are going to have a different view on field managers anyway  :lol: However those views are left for a different day  8)

Regards
Gary
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soreilly

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Re: Need Help Diagnosing Fault
« Reply #49 on: July 25, 2012, 10:13:51 PM »

and you have tried other routers?

did the engineer do a Wideband Noise test?  looking at the report he done a Pair Quality test and Fast test, these are just basic "quality" tests, he most certainly hasnt done a Wideband Noise test (unless its not listed in his report), ive had an SFI engineer out before who didnt even run these kind of "obvious" tests - the 2nd one (who found the problem by using a Wideband Noise Test) wasnt even gunna try until I pushed him into it shoving evidence in his face (print outs of SNR & QLN before & after showing noise on the line) - the point here is the engineer may not have run basic wideband noise tests which would show noise on the line - sounds like that SFI engineer is looking for narrowband noise (audible such as crackling, clicking, whistling, popping etc)

there are a few more tests he could have carried out but sounds like all he has done is test that its functional for phone & broadband regardless of noise and speed, as long as some throughput comes through & can make and receive a call then its a pass, but he needs to be reminded that it wasnt always like this and he should pursue further tests - you really have to push them or your stuck with it...I was in same boat.

I think the reason a previous poster mentioned about the fridge/freezer is that they run even harder on warm days, could it be emitting REIN when its running?

Ive heard that wet weather may make overhead lines heavier and the weight creates more pull on the connections which may be making them better if they are badly corroded or something??  hence dry weather reverses this

as you have massive error counts this shows there is wideband noise activity, what you need to do is get another SFI out on a hot day when the problem is occurring and remind your ISP to remind him its his job is too stay all day until the problem is resolved (which is what I was told by a few people and a rep at sky) - he could run other tests, also go to each point in the line and check the joins etc, test each section between each joint if needs be.

this will be a right head-ache for you, I know because i went through same thing and took me 3 months and 7 engineer visits to get it put right

Hi Snadge,

Thanks for the reply.

I have tried other routers (Netgear DG834 v4 which I'm currently on, a Cisco 877W and a brand new Cisco 887VA).  A friend has also agreed to let me borrow a Speedtouch 585v6 at some point.

As far as I'm aware the engineer just the basic tests (PQ test etc).  He never mentioned Wideband Noise test and I hadn't heard of it until your post.  Looking back on it, I'm annoyed at how little he did.  I explained the problem, presented him with graphs from RouterStats showing wet vs dry days and the video evidence.  He tested the line from the house and the PCP and said it's fine, no error.  Didn't mention other tests or offer to try different things.

Re the post about the fridge / freezer, I will look into that. 

Regards,

 
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Black Sheep

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Re: Need Help Diagnosing Fault
« Reply #50 on: July 26, 2012, 07:43:06 AM »

soreilly

Please dont be annoyed with the engineer. If anything, be annoyed with the processes put in place by the ISP's, Openreach and OfCOM. All 3 parties agreed to the how circuits should be tested when LLU was put in place, and that's what you get.

The 'Wideband Noise' test is built in to the PQT test, so he will have carried one out.
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coolsnakeman

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Re: Need Help Diagnosing Fault
« Reply #51 on: July 26, 2012, 09:04:01 AM »

Agree with BS don't be annoyed with the engineer be annoyed with the system. It will get to the stage where there will be that many people complaining about the process they will have to change it but god only knows when that will happen.

Regards
Gary
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soreilly

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Re: Need Help Diagnosing Fault
« Reply #52 on: July 26, 2012, 09:38:08 AM »

It wasn't an attack on the engineer, just an observation following the visit. 

@BS you mentioned about the agreement between ISPs / OR and Ofcom about how LLU circuits should be tested.  I seem to recall (and again I'm annoyed at myself for not querying this at the time), when the engineer placed his tester on the line he could do a sync test (which showed no errors) but for some reason he said he couldn't do a "full data test(?)" as it wouldn't let him log in (I think his tester had a red light on it).

If there is a process to test LLU circuits, surely the above is not completing the process, and how could he declare my line error free?

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coolsnakeman

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Re: Need Help Diagnosing Fault
« Reply #53 on: July 26, 2012, 09:54:57 AM »

I am not to sure but i don't think the engineers equipment can authenticate with another providers radius as it is only setup to authenticate with BT's radius. Again i am not to sure but BS or BK i am sure could confirm that.

Regards
Gary
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burakkucat

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Re: Need Help Diagnosing Fault
« Reply #54 on: July 26, 2012, 05:03:24 PM »

I seem to recall (and again I'm annoyed at myself for not querying this at the time), when the engineer placed his tester on the line he could do a sync test (which showed no errors) but for some reason he said he couldn't do a "full data test(?)" as it wouldn't let him log in (I think his tester had a red light on it).

If there is a process to test LLU circuits, surely the above is not completing the process, and how could he declare my line error free?

Openreach are only responsible for the physical infrastructure and not the CP's (ISP's) service that runs on the physical infrastructure. So assuming that the engineer has performed all the designated tests to prove the continuity of the pair and that the quality of the pair is such that it can support a service, including a sync with the exchange MSAN, then it is correct to declare the line "error free".

You hare proved that the issue does not originate within your domain. Good.

Openreach have tested and confirmed that the issue does not originate within their domain. Good.

So now what is left?  :-\   :hmm:  That domain which every CP / ISP will always swear blind is above question. Their MASN line-card and their exchange based circuitry/equipment.  :-X
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Black Sheep

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Re: Need Help Diagnosing Fault
« Reply #55 on: July 26, 2012, 07:21:48 PM »

It wasn't an attack on the engineer, just an observation following the visit. 

@BS you mentioned about the agreement between ISPs / OR and Ofcom about how LLU circuits should be tested.  I seem to recall (and again I'm annoyed at myself for not querying this at the time), when the engineer placed his tester on the line he could do a sync test (which showed no errors) but for some reason he said he couldn't do a "full data test(?)" as it wouldn't let him log in (I think his tester had a red light on it).

If there is a process to test LLU circuits, surely the above is not completing the process, and how could he declare my line error free?

Hmm ?? Terminology can be the difference between success and failure. With that in mind, I'll try and put over what 'we' do on-site (or should do), but with my terminology. Other engineers may use different wording ?

The first test should always be a PQT, as if there is an underlying network fault, then by identifying and repairing it the DSL will most likely improve of its own accord. Not all engineers have HHT's, ergo not all engineers can perform a PQT. All BB/FTTC-P engineers should be HHT enabled due to the testing of higher frequencies.

The second test that I do, is that of an Eclipse or Fast Test. They're both the same low-frequency test, and IMO, unwarranted if the engineer has carried out a PQT, as this is the higher-end test. That said, it is the Eclipse/Fast Test that the SP's demand that we do. As an aside, sometimes there will be a CIDT linked to the Eclipse Test (but we engineers don't know this until the results are given back via SMS text), which is slightly more in-depth than the bog standard test. These occur on probably 5% of the tasks I attend.

The third test I will then perform is called a 'DSL Close-out' test. This can be set to the default 5 minutes, or an extended 15 minutes. This will synchronise with the ISP's Exchange Equipment and give the normal stats (Speed, SNR, Atten etc), then it will pass data back and forth for the allotted time looking for CRC,HEC and RS. It will then present a 'Pass' or 'Fail' result at the end. Both the PQT and the DSL Close-out tests are blue-toothed back to our laptops and then transferred via 'Tarvos' to a data-base for all and sundry to see. All the tests mentioned above can be done on all circuits.

As mooted by BK, 'we' are only interested in the bit from EU to DSLAM/MSAN. We can input each EU's log-on credentials and passwords into the HHT to check for a PPP Session, but TBH it's that damned awkward to do, nobody I know bothers. It's easier to ring the ISP and ask them if they can see an active PPP Session. But again, if we've proved its connected to the right Exchange Equipment we don't need to concern ourselves with the PPP side of the fence, however most of us will go that extra mile. :)

The red light you mention on the tester. I have a JDSU (so can't comment on the EXFO) and there are 2  lights we are concerned about, synch .... and data. The synch light will always go green if the obvious has been accomplished, the data light will go green for BT circuits thus dictating an active PPP Session, for LLU's it will remain red. This last piece of information I retrieved from one of the training guys, so can't confirm this to be absolute fact, but have no reason to disbelieve this particular gentleman.

I hope this clarifies things, or if it doesn't, I'm struggling to put it into words any better. :)
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burakkucat

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Re: Need Help Diagnosing Fault
« Reply #56 on: July 26, 2012, 07:45:28 PM »

Thank you. It has certainly added to my knowledge base, BS:)
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Black Sheep

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Re: Need Help Diagnosing Fault
« Reply #57 on: July 26, 2012, 07:52:37 PM »

Welcome sir. :)
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snadge

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Re: Need Help Diagnosing Fault
« Reply #58 on: July 27, 2012, 12:07:08 AM »

the engineer that eventually fixed mine ran a PQ Test when the line was still at fault and came up trumps and started to pack his gear away... not happy I reminded him that all the other engineers did the same test and they all came up LTOK, but the noise issue remained, so he proceeded to do other tests, it was with these tests he indicated there was 'wideband noise' on the line - so I dunno HOW him and the other 6 engineers did not detect wideband noise on my line if the test for it is built in to the PQ test itself?  as we all know mine turned out too be a split leg (one of my wires in contact with someone else's which stopped noise cancellation from working properly) - I cant be sure what test he ran to detect that, but I assume a Wideband Noise test would reveal any such anomalies and it certainly wasnt the PQ test, I know that much anyway.

the problem soreilly has is that it only happens at certain times and its gunna be hard getting his ISP to get an SFI Engineer out when its happening (and then pushing that Engineer to do more than basic tests for the phone line & broadband sync).

if the engineer could not complete his tests then AFAIK he should not declare the line ok - I had 6 engineers do the same with my line, declare it as OK - but it wasnt. as long as the phone works and a sync is made then thats all they are bothered about because they are told to do just that.

@ Gary - I know the BT Broadband Engineers kit detected SKY's LLU etc - if by 'Radius' you mean connect to their hardware and get a sync...yes they done that, if thats not what you meant then sorry :)
« Last Edit: July 27, 2012, 12:13:14 AM by snadge »
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Black Sheep

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Re: Need Help Diagnosing Fault
« Reply #59 on: July 27, 2012, 07:08:22 AM »

For Snadge .......... as sure as I've got a hole in my bottom, the PQT test on a JDSU DOES inform of 'Wideband Noise' in the form a dB reading.

I doubt your fault was a 'split leg' if other engineers had also peformed PQT tests at your house. If that was the case the AC Balance would have been awful, and the capacitance readings (A-B) wouldn't be great either. It sounds more like your line was in contact, ever so slightly, with a 'Dead pair'.

As you have pointed out, the 'Wideband noise' test will pick up on this.

For your information, and then we're not pushing out false information to other forum users, the PQT is a 'Scripted Test'. That means it runs through a plethora of 'scripted' tests, such as Voltages, Capacitance, Resistance, AC Balance, REIN and Wideband Noise.
Each and every part of the scripted test can also be tested on an individual basis. For example, if the PQT returns a low wideband noise reading, I then wouldn't peform a PQT at every point I accessed in the network. I would only carry out a wideband noise test, as I know everything else is ok. The PQT take approx 4 minutes to complete. The individual tests take seconds.

So with that in mind, I assume that when you say your engineer carried out a special wideband noise test, which no previous engineer had, that he had indeed accessed the individual WN test !!.

In closing, I dont what our HHT 'WN' parameters are set at ?? With AC Balance it is between the 45-50dB mark which will return a 'Fail' result. If the PQT returns a 'Pass' result, then the test has passed within the WN parameters set by our peers.

To ram it down your throat again, IF this is the case, and the other compliance tests also pass ...... we are told to walk away. Again for information, this isn't Openreach alone dictating this course of action. This is the agreement made by ISP's, OfCom and Openreach as a collective.

Until changes are made to the SIN, then thats what you get. Not the engineers fault I'm afraid.
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