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Author Topic: ADSL2+ buckets question  (Read 6545 times)

snadge

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ADSL2+ buckets question
« on: August 24, 2011, 09:37:33 PM »

Hi  (again)  :)

This question may be difficult to follow but stay with me lol...

Im trying to get the correct information on how many buckets are used per downstream/upstream and how much bandwidth they carry on ADSL1/2 and and more specifically on ADSL2+ technology as Im writing up my own pages on this stuff for my own website, the problem Im having is Im finding conflicting information on this site and another (whirlpool.net)

on Kitz it states that each 4Khz bucket is capable of 56Kbps of data, which initially seems right to me as dial-up modems operated on 0-4Khz (one 4khz block or 'channel') and were capable of 56Kbps, so it would make sense that (on Broadband) each 4Khz channel would yield 56Kbps, however on Whirlpool.net (an Australian DSL site) it states that 56Kbps modems were a trick of digital ISDN's by the ISP? and that a dial up modems imposed limit was 33.6Kbps (quoting 'Shannons Theorem') and that the actual theoretical speed was more like 36Kbps, it then suggests thats what is transferred over each 4Khz channel, quoting 255 (for ADSL1) x 36 = 9180 (8Mb down + 1Mb up) which seems to make sense, but then we remember that ADSL1 is actually also capable of 12Mbps depending on which standard is used (according to Wikipedia) - Kitz description using 56Kbps fits that model; 255 x 56 = 14Mbps (12Mbps down and 1.3Mbps up + white space)

I thought that maybe the 56Kbps is 'theoretical' speed and maybe 36Kbps is 'actual' speed - not sure and its so confusing, I just want the correct info for my page, now i was just going to go with Kitz version as it seemed logical but then I calculated the total download bandwidth for ADSL2+ from the chart on this page and something doesnt seem right, look at ADSL2+ downstream tones, 33 to 511 so 511-33 = 478, so ADSL2+ uses 478 buckets for download and it comes to 26Mbps for download speed if we use the 56k per Bucket Theory (478 x 56 = 26Mbps) - this doesnt include upload or any white space that is included in tones 1-32; above that chart it says for ADSL2+ it doubles what ADSL1/2 uses but that would mean doubling the upload and white space too to get exactly 24Mbps for download which means using that theory ADSL2+ could have 2.6Mbps upload, double the white space and 24Mbps download? - the chart would also suggest this is possible:- 511 x 56kbps = 28Mbps (24Mbps down / White Space / 2.3Mbps Upload) - for those that may not know this is not 'reach extended' as that standard eats into the download frequencies for the extra upload space (as per kitz chart and wikipedia) - according to that model above one could get 26Mbps download and 1.3Mbps upload sync, but we all know that the max sync rate on ADSL2+ is supposedly 24Mbps?.

the wierd thing is on that Whirlpool website above they have charts of other peoples connection speeds and ive seen them as high as 26,900k on ADSL2+ for download sync rate, here we can see one at 26,924k and a few others near that. my theory above and those sync rates above would suggest that it is indeed 'seems' possible to get near 27Mbps down stream sync rates on ADSL2+

I also noticed that the extended reach section of Kitz chart shows that the upload would only yield 2.8Mbps and not 3.3Mbps its supposed too as it states it uses 50 tones (50 x 56k = 2.8Mbps).

;;;;;CoNfUsEd;;;;;

 :)

i WONDERED if someone could help clear this up for me so I can make sure the data is correct for my page.?


thanks in advance to those that can help.

edit:
here is a snippet from the page im making so you can see what Im doing (and correct me if im wrong)

Quote
Bucket Modems (Carrier Bins) and Bandwidth Blocks
Your modem that connects to the exchange actually uses 'hundreds' of software modems called Carrier Bins or 'Buckets' to send and receive data over (256 on ADSL1 and 512 on ADSL2+). Each bucket handles a 4kHz frequency block (or 'channel'), from the example image above you can see that ADSL1 uses frequencies from 26kHz to 1100kHz, this means the total available bandwidth of frequencies for ADSL1 is around 1078kHz (1.078Mhz) - divide that by 256 and you get 4.2kHz, 4kHz is used for the actual payload (bandwidth) and 0.2kHz is used as white space between each channel, each 4kHz channel has a theoretical bandwidth of 56Kbps.

ADSL1/2 uses 256 Buckets like so:-
223 Buckets for downstream (223 x 56k = 12Mbps max 'Theoretical' speed) + 25 for upstream (25 x 56k = 1.3Mbps) and 8 Buckets are used as white space between the upload and download streams to prevent crosstalk. These are theoretical speeds and depend on standards and equipment used.

ADSL2+ uses 512 Buckets like so:-
478 Buckets for downstream (478 x 56k = 26Mbps max 'Theoretical' speed) + 25 for upstream (25 x 56k = 1.3Mbps) and 8 buckets are used as white space between the upload and download streams to prevent crosstalk.These are theoretical speeds and depend on standards and equipment used.

ADSL2+ (Extended Reach) uses 512 Buckets like so:-
451 Buckets for downstream (451 x 56k = 24Mbps max 'Theoretical speed) + 50 for upstream (50 x 56k = 2.8Mbps) and 11 buckets are used as white space between the upload and download streams to prevent crosstalk.These are theoretical speeds and depend on standards and equipment used.

So next time your downloading something just remember that there are actually many hundreds of little modems each downloading tiny clumps of data at the same time over hundreds of seperate channels.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2011, 10:15:51 PM by snadge »
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jeffbb

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Re: ADSL2+ buckets question
« Reply #1 on: August 25, 2011, 05:43:51 PM »

Hi
Had a good time trying to follow compare the two or was it 3 discussions  ???
 But  just one thing that has to be considered is that if a line say 24000Kbps was fully synched up that is every data bit available was used then ,How long would it be before The line would  lose synch .There is a requirement to do bit swapping I am not totally sure ,but something tells me that to be able to ever synch at 24000Kbps there must be some spare capacity above  24  for bit swapping  .
see http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/adsl_technology.htm
I might have got th wrong end of the stick  ::)

the other confusion is that there is a possible 15 data bits available  per bucket :lol:

Regards Jeff
« Last Edit: August 25, 2011, 05:54:09 PM by jeffbb »
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snadge

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Re: ADSL2+ buckets question
« Reply #2 on: August 26, 2011, 10:50:52 PM »

thanks for your help Jeff :)

yeah I see what you mean.. i just never thought they would be almost 27Mbps?? and if there has to be that much overheads to get the 24,000 sync rates, how are there 26,900k syncs rates on that website?

Unfortunately I dont know what Bit-Swapping is, I am going to learn it right now though  ;)

I still think some of the numbers in Kitz chart are incorrect, specifically for Increased Upload (which is what I meant by extended reach above, got that wrong! lol) - on Wikipedia it states that on Annex M the up/down split is shifted from 138 Khz to 276 Khz, removing the first 26 Khz for white space and PSTN you have 249 Khz , now if each bucket/tone is 4.2Khz then 249/4.2 = 59, so Annex M (increased Upload) has 59 buckets (or tones if you want to call them that) whereas in kitz chart it says 50, (59 x 56k = 3304Kbps) - with Kitz 50 tones it would only be 2800Kbps (which isnt 3.3Mbps)

ahh well, this is what I have for my page, I will change to include the info about Bit-Swapping once i have read and understood it, I may swap the term 'Buckets' for 'Tones' aswell..

Thanks again :)

Quote
ADSL1/2 uses 256 Buckets like so:-
223 Buckets for downstream (223 x 56k = 12Mbps max 'Theoretical' speed) + 25 for upstream (25 x 56k = 1.3Mbps) and 8 Buckets are used as white space between the upload and download streams to prevent crosstalk. These are theoretical speeds and depend on standards and equipment used.

ADSL2+ uses 512 Buckets like so:-
478 Buckets for downstream (478 x 56k = 26Mbps max 'Theoretical' speed) + 25 for upstream (25 x 56k = 1.3Mbps) and 8 buckets are used as white space between the upload and download streams to prevent crosstalk.These are theoretical speeds and depend on standards and equipment used.

Extended Upload ADSL2+ (Annex M) takes buckets/channels from the download frequencies to increase the upload speed to 3.3Mbps - namely the upload bucket count is increased from 25 to 59 and download bucket count is decreased from 478 to 444, the upload/download frequency split is shifted from 138 kHz to 276 kHz.
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vicsperry

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Re: ADSL2+ buckets question
« Reply #3 on: December 28, 2011, 09:32:43 PM »

I am a software engineer, and have written code for DSLAMs since about 1999. I currently work for Calix and specialize in ADSL/2/2+/VDSL2.

The phone networks were optimized to carry the spoken voice, which has a practical range of about 300 Hz to something less than 4000 Hz. So analog phone equipment was designed to carry up to 4 KHz analog signals. When this is carried digitally, you need to sample at twice the frequency of the signal (as per Nyquist theory), so digital TDM voice technologies such as DDS, T1, T3, etc are built up in a hierarchy starting at 8 KHz X 8 bits = 64 Kbps. But I digress.

The analog equipment in use by land-line telephone companies were guaranteed to transmit analog signals up to 4 KHz. So old-tyme analog modems (1980s/1990s-era) had to stay below this frequency. As you note, Shannon's theorem predicted that they ought to be able to approach about 35 Kbps, but for a long time, people didn't know how to go that fast. In the mid to late 1980s, modems used a symbol (or "baud") rate of 1200 or 2400 symbols per second, and people were able to pack up to 4 bits into each symbol, which got us to 9600 bps. Then the symbol rate was pushed up to about 3600 symbols/sec, and that got us to 14,400 bps, but we still didn't know how to approach the theoretical limit of 35 Kbps. Eventually, an encoding method called Trellis Coding (invented late 70s-early 80s) became well-known, and this allowed us to get up to 10 bits in each symbol. Now we could approach Shannon's limit. But necessary limitations on power reduced the speed to 33.6 Kbps.

And that's it for an analog modem transmitting over traditional analog phone equipment, 33.6 Kbps. It does not go higher. The spate of 56 Kbps modems that came out in the 1990s were, indeed, employing a "trick". They took advantage of the fact that a lot of phone equipment was newer than was guaranteed by traditional phone companies. I am fuzzy on this part, but the way it was explained to me was that you can "leave out a final step of converting to traditional analog and transmit digitally" -- I may be remembering that incorrectly. The bottom line is that it doesn't always work. A 56 Kbps modem will fall back to 33.6 Kbps or slower if the equipment it is connected to does not support the trick.

So on to xDSL. As you point out, the discrete multi-tone (DMT) form of xDSL is essentially hundreds or thousands of parallel analog modems, each operating at a different frequency. This is not the only form of DSL. There are other forms of modulation. One early form of DSL was SDSL, which used 2B1Q modulation, not DMT. Another example is SHDSL, which was designed to replace T1 and E1 lines. This is also different from DMT. But the common forms of DSL as defined by the ITU in ITU-T G.992.1 (ADSL), G.992.3 (ADSL2), G.992.5 (ADSL2+), and G.993.2 (VDSL2) are all based on DMT. By the way, I've never heard of a tone being referred to as a "bucket". In my experience, they are called "tones" or "subcarriers".

If you go look at those highly-technical specs, and in particular refer to the annexes, you'll see that the frequencies at which the individual modems operate are spaced at 4.3125 KHz (except for VDSL2 mode 30a, which uses a spacing of 8.625 KHz), and for every frequency, the modems are limited to a particular power. In the earlier specs (ADSL/2/2+) the power was pretty much fixed by the PSD limit mask as published in the annexes. Starting with ADSL2+, the ITU began to specify ways of adjusting the power further with techniques referred to as upstream and downstream power backoff. The current state-of-the-art in power adjustment is a technology called "vectoring" which gives control of the power spectrum to an expert system that can adjust power over not only all of the tones used on a particular line, but over multiple lines used over a particular DSLAM, and eventually over multiple DSLAMs. The idea to to adjust the power on all of the frequencies such that all of the lines have a much-reduced phenonemenon of Far-End Cross-talk (FEXT). i.e. if they all play nicely together instead of all trying to blast at the maximum power they're allowed, they can all achieve higher rates.

And this (finally) gets to the heart of your question. It is not so simple as to say "each tone can get about 56 Kbps, and we have N tones, so we get N * 56 Kbps". Both sides of an xDSL connection go through a process called handshaking (specified by ITU-T G.994.1), where they test all of the tones they want to use and agree on which tones are noise-free enough to use, and how many bits can be placed into each tone. This has to do with the length of the cable over which they are operating, its diameter, whether it has bridged taps, whether water is leaking through insulation somewhere on the cable, whether there is radio-frequency interference from, say, ham radios, and probably 50 other things of which I am unaware. Then there is configuration information (are we shaping our power to annex A, annex B, or using vectoring, etc) that further modifies the decisions used by both sides. In the end, the two sides agree on a rate the line can support, and that's what you get.

By the way, bit swapping is the process of continually monitoring an xDSL line while it is up, and deciding to move some bits from one tone to another.

Hope this helps. Even though xDSL technology is destined to eventually be replaced by fiber, it is a highly-sophisticated technology. The wires over which it operates were never intended to support speeds of up to 100 Mbps (as you can get with VDSL2 on very short loops), and are often 50 or more years old. I find xDSL to be really quite impressive.
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roseway

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Re: ADSL2+ buckets question
« Reply #4 on: December 28, 2011, 10:23:43 PM »

Thank you for that, vicsperry, it's much appreciated. I'll give it another read tomorrow when I'm more awake. :)
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  Eric

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Re: ADSL2+ buckets question
« Reply #5 on: January 13, 2012, 06:59:22 AM »

Bit swapping is where the system detects increased interference of increased signal loss at one or more frequency so adversely affecting the channels/tones/buckets at those frequencies. The system then reduces the number of different kinds of symbols sent on those channels/buckets/frequencies so the receiving end can more easily make out which symbol is sent, and so less errors. Fewer symbols on a channel/frequent/tone/bucket means fewer bits  can be sent in each time slot (count the number of different symbols sent takes n bits to number the list of the symbols in use). For example, if you send a symbol from a set of eight allowed symbols in a timeslot, the that equates to sending three bits because the symbols can be listed and numbered 000 to 111 binary, i.e. 0 to 7. If you reduce the set allowed to four symbols,  which are very different in appearance from one-another so difficult to confuse with one-another and misread when the channel is corrupted, then you can only transmit 2 bits per timeslot, symbol values listed numbered 00 to 11, whereas before it was three bits per timeslot with eight symbol possibilities allowed. This reduction in the number of symbols and hence number of nits carried in a bucket/tone is "bit-swap".

When fewer bits are carried on one tone, another tone that is is faring better is readjusted to carry more bits, in order to make up for the reduction of carrying capacity on the reduced-symbol set tone and keep the total information load transmitted the same as it was. This shift of   bits-per-bin/bucket/tone from one tone to another on-the-fly, keeping the overall total data rate the same is bit swap in action. Obviously sometimes it is not possible to keep the total data rate up if a lot of tones are affected badly by increased interference or more signal loss. In this case, dsl modems may have to give up, and renegotiate a new connection at a slower total rate, with a brief break in service, but more advanced software keeps the disruption down to practically nothing (Seamless Rate Adaption or SRA) when the total rate/capacity is adjusted. On-the fly bit swap, which keeps the total capacity the same by finding a channel that can be used more intensively with greater number of possible symbols in the set sent to make up for a reduction on another tone, requires that some frequencies/tones/buckets be assesses as very capable and then intentionally underused, so as to allow for future increased burden in bit-swap when conditions change.

The total amount of underusage chosen by the sending system in it's bits-per-bin/bucket/tone allocation plan, a sort of conservatism or contingency, this is reflected if my understanding is correct in the "target SNR margin". This value (planned underusage, contingency amount) is higher if a lot of variation is expected, and this expectation is calculated based on magic numbers computed from knowledge of historical patterns in interference variation. Please correct me if i'm wrong. So having a line that varies a lot makes things slower, as the variation has to be allowed for in increased conservatism/contingency/frequency plan under usage for possible bit swap when things do change.
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snadge

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Re: ADSL2+ buckets question
« Reply #6 on: March 04, 2012, 03:12:33 AM »

WOW!!! -  amazing replies... somehow I didnt get email notification of replies (or did and missed it) so wasnt aware of the replies


I would like to thanks you both, I do hope Vicsperry becomes a regular, he could be well handy on here ;)
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waltergmw

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Re: ADSL2+ buckets question
« Reply #7 on: March 04, 2012, 08:33:00 AM »

@ Weaver,

Thanks for a very useful explanation.
Looking at the 2Wire bit loading diagrams I believe the maximum number of symbols is Hexadecimal F = 0 to 15 decimal, although I can't recall seeing any tone above Hex D upon the rare occasions I've actually seen a near perfect line.

Kind regards,
Walter
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