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[snadge]

LOL Snadge.

You're not on your own bud. I have to gen up on certain info from time-to-time (like SNR Margins), just to put the correct info back into my brain. As I learn new stuff, things like that seem to dissapear to the back of my tempal lobes. JeffBB is the man when it comes to SNR though.

haha - I know, I feel a bit embarrassed actually... BUT, glad that I fully understand how it works now, ive always though that a high SNR Margin meant that possible noise increase on line has caused it (higher SNR has been set to counter the noise increase to keep the line stable) , which I suppose is still correct, just ive never known about the plunging SNR Margin reveals the noise actually increasing... learn something new every-day haha

I find it all fascinating me ever since i learned from the likes of you Razpag and iZools on DSL-zone-UK ive always loved it, every time I see an Openreach van im nosing about too see what they are doing lol... I still have that faceplate & twisted pair cable you sent me, works a charm, ive actually just moved our master socket to the back door cos she wanted the phone away from the back of the TV.

anyway, sorry to Martin for going off topic, just I wanted to understand what he meant:-  I cant wait to find out whats causing this noise problem of his, i read one report of someones tumble dryer was dropping every ones connection in the whole street when it came on at nights lol... its amazing how something like that can drop your broadband connection...

[razpag]

LOL Snadge. Every day's a school day mate. 

Going back to REIN though, and it really, really can be a PITA to locate !! Especially the 'night-time events' like PIR Lighting, washer/dryers, baby monitors ......... anything really that a working household may switch on when they get home. Problem is, when they're getting home, so am I (and other OR REIN engineers), which leaves nobody around to do the job. 

As REIN locating is a goddwill gesture to ISP's and their EU's, I wouldn't expect any Operational Unit Manager to pay overtime out of their scrutinised budget, without the guarantee of a result. It just comes down to business accumen in the end. I'm pretty sure things will change regarding REIN faulting (IMHO), in time to come.

[MartinGoose]

anyway, sorry to Martin for going off topic, just I wanted to understand what he meant:-

Don't worry. I believe in 'Life Long Learning' as well.

PS No problems here at present but some of the neighbours are away!!

[MartinGoose]

Neighbours back and the intermittent REIN has resumed. Is this a clue?!

However my connection is now relatively stable because my target SNR seems to have been increased from 6dB to something higher. Daytime SNR is 10-11 dB. The intermittent REIN is now no longer sufficient to cause a router resync so my ISP seems to regard my line as stable and no longer a fault. I have offered them a different opinion!!

Do others have experience of this type of situation? In practice it looks like my connection has been degraded to be more tolerant of intermittent REIN rather than finding the source of the problem.  This does not seem to be an appropriate response to the problem.

[waltergmw]

Hi Martin,

Your experiences are not dissimilar from those of poor Paul here:-

http://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php/topic,9726.msg199270.html#new

If one were a philanthropic multi-billionaire one might be tempted to say that unshielded twisted pairs are unsuitable for high speed broadband, despite all the twinkly advertisements.
It is perhaps a very sad fact that fibre is probably the only suitable transmission medium as it is imune from all electrical noise, although it is fragile if not engineered properly.

Kind regards,
Walter

[MartinGoose]

... one might be tempted to say that unshielded twisted pairs are unsuitable for high speed broadband, despite all the twinkly advertisements.
It is perhaps a very sad fact that fibre is probably the only suitable transmission medium as it is imune from all electrical noise, although it is fragile if not engineered properly.

I agree.

To be fair, it is quite a clever trick to get such high bandwidth down copper that was not intended for this service. However, given that it can be made to work, I want what my copper can deliver! I have recently see a sync of 10056 kbps at 6.5 dB, stable for about 4 hours, so it shows that ADSL2+ is capable of giving me a significant benefit. This figure is broadly in line with Kitz's 'Maximum adsl speed calculator' prediction for my 35dB downstream attenuation, as it was for my previous ADSL2 connection.

[catzi]

Just to chip in, I had a REIN problem that was caused by my neighbour's stairlift battery charging. The REIN usually lasted up to half an hour and was intermittent thorough the day and corresponded with the periods after the chairlift had been in use (which was a bit confusing to start with). I was seeing a similar 9db drop in SNR margin.

The stairlift guys eventually replaced the control box and fixed the REIN problem. I believe faulty battery charging equipment has a reputation for interfering with ADSL - might be worth looking around for any kit of that ilk.

Iain

[MartinGoose]

Just to chip in, I had a REIN problem that was caused by my neighbour's stairlift battery charging.

I think that I may have read your thread on this.

My timings seem to be just before meal times (lunch and dinner). Duration is 20 mins to 90 mins. Fan oven perhaps?

PS All bungalows around here so stair-lift not likely

[Ezzer]

yes could be an oven, and extrapulating this for a food related item is a good idea, but also think around that as to what else could be used about that time. Could they have a tv on, one during the cooking in the kitchen. A fidge/frezzer working harder than normal as its been opened recently. An extractor fan. Water heaters, a radio. And yes if the problem comes up just when neighbours are back then its quite fair to say their premises may contain the cause.

If you do approach them, then remember who this may seem from their point of view, and it will the most natural thing in the world for them to feel even a bit under attack (all sorts of ways to word this but think what if you were in their shoes and if you knew nothing of REIN). So be gentle and reassure its not personal straight away. When dealing with REIN faults I officialy was not to approach 3rd parties, but realisticaly I did. And you may be doing them a favour as if they have broadband they probably also feel a bit miffed because their broadband isnt performing as they hoped it would. Tell them of this site so they can peruse the info at their leisure, or even pop on to this forum (hello Martins neighbours,  )

[snadge]

This figure is broadly in line with Kitz's 'Maximum adsl speed calculator' prediction for my 35dB downstream attenuation, as it was for my previous ADSL2 connection.

I used to get 13,000k sync with 39db Line Attenuation and 6db snr margin... i must have been very lucky..

[razpag]

Hell, you must have done good things for people over your lifetime Snadge !!

My attenuation is also 39dB, and the highest I've managed is 9Meg. Believe me, there's nothing more that can be enhanced on my circuit.

[snadge]

i used to get it to 16,000k with a 2db SNR with about 13Mbps actual throughput
my neighbour downstairs directly underneath (at the time) on same ISP and connection could only get a 9,100k sync like yourself... wierd innit?  I used Netgear GT (DG team) , he had o2 Wireless Box II - mind I could get the 13,000k on my SPeedtouch 780 that o2 gave me (big ugly thing) - both the GT and 780 have Broadcom chipsets i think ...dunno what his wirless box II was... sorry for going offtopic

[MartinGoose]

Just an update to let readers know that there is little progress. My ISP seems to be loosing interest despite the on-going severe bursts of REIN. The last one dropped my SNR by 10dB and caused a resync. Now that it has stopped, I am at 2880 kbps @ 19.5 dB SNR margin on a 35.0 dB downstream attenuation ADSL2+ line.

Does anyone have a reference to service level agreements, contracts or the like that set out Openreach's obligations in such a case? Is operating faulty electrical equipment that interferes with radio or other telecommunications covered by any civil or criminal law? Many statutory bodies have right of access to premises etc. when some breach of law is suspected.

[waltergmw]

Hi  martin,

There is no Universal Service Obligation of any sort on a BT provided ADSL service. However BT often use best endeavours to assist in tracing and eliminating an interfering RF source which I think might get charged to the service provider.

More expensive business broadband suppliers do often help to resolve these issues more vigorously.

It is illegal to transmit a faulty radio signal but getting anybody to enforce a resolution can often be a very tedious and not always successful task.

Kind regards,
Walter

[MartinGoose]

There is no Universal Service Obligation of any sort on a BT provided ADSL service. However BT often use best endeavours to assist in tracing and eliminating an interfering RF source which I think might get charged to the service provider.

More expensive business broadband suppliers do often help to resolve these issues more vigorously.

I rather guessed that this might be the case!

It is illegal to transmit a faulty radio signal but getting anybody to enforce a resolution can often be a very tedious and not always successful task.

I assume that you mean RF interference from faulty electrical apparatus. If so can you give me clue about finding the actual legislation and who enforces it.