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Author Topic: Tracking down the source of REIN  (Read 24801 times)

MartinGoose

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Tracking down the source of REIN
« on: August 18, 2011, 07:16:32 PM »

I have been having ADSL2+ connectivity issues for the last couple of months which I believe are due to REIN.  I have eliminated all possible causes due to poor internal telecoms wiring and have operated all significant electrical equipment in my house to see if I could cause the 9-10 dB drops in SNR that are evidence of the problem.

I have recently collaborated with two neighbours (2 doors away and 5 doors away, both nearer the street cabinet) and made simultaneous RouterStats recordings for an extended period.  All three traces show similar variations in SNR in terms of timing and shape.

Working through my ISP, I have now had 4 visits from Openreach who now seem to be convinced that it is a REIN issue. Visit 5 is tomorrow!

I have read the REIN page on Kitz and the original post on which it is based and have had some success with the MW radio approach.  Inter-station noise on 612kHz goes up substantially when RouterStats sees an SNR drop. I live in the NW of England so the French do not intervene!

It occurs to me that the MW aerial in the radio is directional and could be used for direction finding.  I can certainly detect a clear minimum point when I rotate the radio.  Is this correct or am I deluding myself!?

PS You can see the extent of my problems at:
<http://www.thegoosefamily.plus.com/Rx_Noise_margin_(dB).jpg>
updated every hour (if my connection is up!).
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roseway

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Re: Tracking down the source of REIN
« Reply #1 on: August 18, 2011, 10:35:42 PM »

Quote
It occurs to me that the MW aerial in the radio is directional and could be used for direction finding.  I can certainly detect a clear minimum point when I rotate the radio.  Is this correct or am I deluding myself!?

You're not deluding yourself at all. When the radio is turned to the direction of minimum interference, the source of the interference can be taken to be somewhere on a line along the length of the radio. So if you do this from two or more positions you'll be able, with luck, to work out the source of the interference by triangulation. It's not quite as easy as that of course, but you do stand a chance of working out where it comes from.
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burakkucat

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Re: Tracking down the source of REIN
« Reply #2 on: August 18, 2011, 10:44:33 PM »

Quote
It occurs to me that the MW aerial in the radio is directional and could be used for direction finding.  I can certainly detect a clear minimum point when I rotate the radio.  Is this correct or am I deluding myself!?

Martin,

You are absolutely correct and there is no delusion on your part. :) If you had a suitable scaled map, an accurate compass and sufficient time to spare, you could make a start in finding the approximate location of the noise source.

Here's a typical procedural list:

1) When the RFI / REIN is active, tune the radio to approximately 612 kHz ensuring that the noise signal is clear and distinct.
2) From an actual location that can be clearly defined on your map, slowly rotate the radio though 360 degrees. Locate the minimum (or null spot) and make a note of the bearing of the long length of the radio.
3) Proceed to a sufficiently distant location and repeat the above. If the bearing you then measure is very similar to that measured above, ignore it and return to your starting point. Now go the same approximate distance in a different direction and try again. All being well, you will have a completely different bearing.
4) Repeat step 3) until you have three distinctly different bearings.
5) Assuming the role of the navigator in a WWII Avro Lancaster heavy bomber ;) plot those three bearings on your map. It is highly unlikely that they will all intersect at the same point. (If they did, I would be suspicious of the three bearings!) You should now have a relatively small triangle as a target area.
6) Search that defined area systematically with your radio. Depending upon the environment, you may be able to define an even smaller area or, if very lucky, a building, lamp post, etc.
7) Present your findings to your ISP / CP and ask them to pass it on to OR for further investigation.

Just one other important thing to remember, please keep this thread updated with your progress. And good luck!

[Oops! Eric's fingers were the faster.]
« Last Edit: August 18, 2011, 10:49:34 PM by burakkucat »
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MartinGoose

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Re: Tracking down the source of REIN
« Reply #3 on: August 19, 2011, 09:00:36 PM »

Just one other important thing to remember, please keep this thread updated with your progress. And good luck!

Noise arrived this morning before Openreach in the afternoon. I had some limited success with the direction finding approach using some satelite photography from Bing on a clipboard. Compass not used, just aligning the map to the ground and my ruler parallel to the radio in the null position.

From some locations I got a very clear null position. In other locations there was no apparent null position.  The latter positions appeared to be when I was close to the route of the underground telecoms cable. Can it re-radiate interference?

By the time Openreach turned up, the major noise had gone and has not reappeared since (obviously gone on a long weekend!). Openreach did find a minor source of continous REIN using a MW radio. This seems to be due to a new telecoms cable laid across the path of underground street lamp electrics and too close.

To be continued next week when Openreach come back on site (hopefully with more than a MW radio this time!)

PS You can grab a copy of 30 seconds of my REIN noise from
<www.thegoosefamily.plus.com/REIN_on_612kHz.mp3>
The guy from Openreach was mighty impressed when I played it to him!!
« Last Edit: August 19, 2011, 09:15:07 PM by MartinGoose »
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burakkucat

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Re: Tracking down the source of REIN
« Reply #4 on: August 19, 2011, 09:40:09 PM »

Quote
In other locations there was no apparent null position.  The latter positions appeared to be when I was close to the route of the underground telecoms cable. Can it re-radiate interference?

Most definitely. :)  And as for detecting RFI / REIN, a radio, a scanning radio or a RF Tester 444B can all be appropriate.

I, too, am impressed with your recording. Just before the end of that clip, it seemed as if the pulse frequency suddenly increased. A wild guess -- could it be someone using an exercise treadmill? (Are you sure the source is not very close to home, your "Senior Management" partaking in her morning exercise routine, perhaps?  :lol:  )
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MartinGoose

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Re: Tracking down the source of REIN
« Reply #5 on: August 19, 2011, 09:56:44 PM »

A wild guess -- could it be someone using an exercise treadmill? (Are you sure the source is not very close to home, your "Senior Management" partaking in her morning exercise routine, perhaps?  :lol:  )

That's an interesting idea about the treadmill, I will pass that on to Openreach. Definitely not one here!!

Just to avoid any possible embarrassment I have switched off all power in the bungalow at the consumer unit this morning as a test.  The radio just carried on.
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burakkucat

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Re: Tracking down the source of REIN
« Reply #6 on: August 19, 2011, 10:18:50 PM »

Other thoughts -- Are you running Routerstats? If so, do you see a corresponding pulsing on the SNRM graph which matches the pulse frequency that you hear / we've heard via the radio? :-\
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MartinGoose

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Re: Tracking down the source of REIN
« Reply #7 on: August 20, 2011, 06:35:44 AM »

Other thoughts -- Are you running Routerstats?

Yes. SNR/Sync rate plot uploaded hourly to:
<http://www.thegoosefamily.plus.com/Rx_Noise_margin_%28dB%29.jpg>

Quote
If so, do you see a corresponding pulsing on the SNRM graph which matches the pulse frequency that you hear / we've heard via the radio? :-\

No. Surely the pulsing frequency is too high for the sample rate of RouterStats.
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burakkucat

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Re: Tracking down the source of REIN
« Reply #8 on: August 20, 2011, 09:15:02 PM »

Quote
No. Surely the pulsing frequency is too high for the sample rate of RouterStats.

Of course you are absolutely correct. I had poorly written what I had intended to ask -- I should have typed "If so, do you see a corresponding perturbation of the SNRM graph at the corresponding time when you hear / heard the pulsing via the radio? :-\ "
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MartinGoose

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Re: Tracking down the source of REIN
« Reply #9 on: August 20, 2011, 10:10:49 PM »

"If so, do you see a corresponding perturbation of the SNRM graph at the corresponding time when you hear / heard the pulsing via the radio? :-\ "

Yes. I have only heard the radio noise when the SNR has plunged. I have never heard the radio noise when the SNR has *not* plunged. However I have not been listening at the start or end of the noise/SNR drop to see if the timing is identical. I would be amazed if it were not identical.
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burakkucat

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Re: Tracking down the source of REIN
« Reply #10 on: August 21, 2011, 12:20:51 AM »

Quote
Yes. I have only heard the radio noise when the SNR has plunged. I have never heard the radio noise when the SNR has *not* plunged. However I have not been listening at the start or end of the noise/SNR drop to see if the timing is identical. I would be amazed if it were not identical.

Thank you. That is good enough for me. I suspect that in the days / weeks to come, you will learn all there is to know with regards to amateur DF'ing. Good luck! :)
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Ezzer

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Re: Tracking down the source of REIN
« Reply #11 on: August 21, 2011, 04:17:47 AM »

Just a point with the frech radio station. I mentioned that not that its a problem for dsl, Just that is provides a reference that your tuned close to 612Khz (the station i picked up was around 620KHz). some MW radios are not that well aligned to the frequency scale.

yes a MW antenna is directional. Its typicaly a coil of wire round a ferrite rod. the whole antenna is the size of a small pen and runs horizontaly side to side in a typical radio.

If you imagine a lenght of wire, and then imagine a radio signal like a circle around the wire. When the MW antenna is in line with this imaginary circle, so the circular line runs through the lenght of the antenna, then the antenna is most sensitive to the radio signal emmited from the wire. Actualy I've usualy had better results in locating a source with a radio rather than a 444b tester

The worst problem with REIN is you can often have the generating source of the noise anywhere, yet as it may be connected to the mains. It uses the local mains cable as an antenna. You pick up a similar strenght noise all along the lenght of a cable in a locality, yet the source is connected anywhere along the route. Worst exsample I came across was knocking out about 4-5 square kilometers. loudest at about 3 separate locations in there fron the power cables. Its was the one time I got to see a directional antenna with a spectral anilyser. Oh how i wished i could have used that kit on so many REIN faults. The source, turned out to be a 240v-110v converter not much bigger than a household plug.

usualy i've had REIN as mains derived. Either a mains dependant item or broacasting along mains cabling. if its coming from telecom cabling then its typicaly something like a faulty modem. Although I have come across a faulty printer which broadcast the noise into a pc then through the modem. That one was fun.
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MartinGoose

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Re: Tracking down the source of REIN
« Reply #12 on: August 21, 2011, 07:46:48 AM »

Just a point with the frech radio station. I mentioned that not that its a problem for dsl, Just that is provides a reference that your tuned close to 612Khz (the station i picked up was around 620KHz). some MW radios are not that well aligned to the frequency scale.

I am using a Roberts R827 radio which tunes over FM, MW, LW and 13 SW bands. The tuned frequency display is LCD digital, although this does not guarantee accuracy.

Quote
Actualy I've usualy had better results in locating a source with a radio rather than a 444b tester

Only one Openreach tech. has turned up with a 444B so far. He said he had only just been trained in its use. I guess lots of experience is required to become fully effective in its use.

Quote
Worst exsample I came across was knocking out about 4-5 square kilometers.

My case is nothing like that size but is affecting properties at least 100 metres along the road where I live.

PS Thanks for all the other details.
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Ezzer

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Re: Tracking down the source of REIN
« Reply #13 on: August 21, 2011, 01:25:07 PM »

I got the 444 as part of my kit, the radio I had was my own which I bought to do the job.

 The 444 is great to get a general picture of noises in the area or if your right on top of an emmiter. otherwise with overhead cabling in conjunction with the height measuring rod we used to check the heights of cables from the pole you could just be able to sometimes pinpoint if it was being emmited from one phone line more than others.

the main problem with the 444 I found was the meter would give the peak strenght of all the noise it was picking up. Not just the REIN noise. For half the county you'll just be seeing the MW transmissions from the main radio masts. Its like trying to home in on a conversation of someone in a crowded room whilst surrounded with lots of other loud conversations. the 444 is just like listening to a band on a radio. But youre not tuned in on one station, you get all the stations on that band at the same time

 I was told it was designed to be used in conjunction with a directional antenna as well as the rubber duck syle one they all come with. problem was at the time there was only one directional in the company and no one knew where in the london area it was.

With experience using a MW radio you get to instinctivly learn which noises to home in on. And by knowing how the ferrite coil antenna works you can get a really good location of an emitter. Its very similar in part to using a "CAT and Genny" which is the kit used to locate underground utilities before road works or a dig. One secret is to keep the radio moving or rotating. Swing the radio from side to side at 90 degrees, and a swing verticaly 90 degrees. the attitiude of the antenna inside gives a good directional clue.

The antenna is about the size of 2 aa batterys in line. it picks up a signal off a wire at right angles to the wire. Its at its least sensitive pointing at the wire or pointing in line with the wire.

The worse problem was when you pick up the same amount of signal all along a power cable route, so then its a case of where along that route is a property connected which has somewhere in it is the generator of the noise.

Although I would say about one third of the sources I have found to be the problem is flat screen monitors. beyond that off the top of my head: Routers, fax machines, low energy light bulb, pc printer, UPS, voltage converters, tv, fridge frezzer, 4 way mains extention, desk lamp, welding equipment, pond pump, gas rig service ship, prs light, alarm panel.
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razpag

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Re: Tracking down the source of REIN
« Reply #14 on: August 21, 2011, 02:20:03 PM »

Wow, great read that Ezzer. Having just recently become officially REIN trained, it's good to read feedback as the training course is 3hrs of slideshows stating what REIN is, not how to find it. TBH, I don't think there is a specific way to locate REIN, it just takes time, perserverance and a bit of luck. ;D

The biggest case of REIN we had was knocking out an entire village (quite populated as well). The source was located to a switching unit on top of a street light on a bypass approx 5 miles away. I didn't find that (wasn't trained back then) as we had to get the specialist REIN team based in Manchester in for that one, but I did 'shadow' them on that job.

Set top boxes, baby monitors and aerial boosters are also notorious sources of REIN. 
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