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Author Topic: FTTC - Distance from the Cabinet - Realistic speed estimate  (Read 254003 times)

NewtronStar

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Re: FTTC - Distance from the Cabinet - Realistic speed estimate
« Reply #630 on: March 08, 2014, 10:47:51 PM »

They may see it as a speed enabler, they may plan for future rollout, but that doesnt mean they see it as urgent.

eg. They were testing adsl2+ for 4 years before they rolled it out.

BT first did vectoring testing over 2 years ago according to a ofcom document.

If it was urgent they would be rolling it out now not testing and talking about it. :)

But will the price be right for the consumer  ;)
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Darren

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Re: FTTC - Distance from the Cabinet - Realistic speed estimate
« Reply #631 on: March 09, 2014, 12:11:36 AM »

I didn't say they do see it as urgent, I said I think you underestimate their urgency. Which IMO is greater than you seem to imply.

Testing it instead of rolling it out strait away doesn't mean their taking their time. It's what BT do, test, then rollout. If the testing takes 4 years so be it, doesn't mean their taking their time, just means it's taken that amount of time to reach a stage where rollout can go ahead. :)

Talking about the results of the recent vectoring trials is a good indicator rollout is sooner rather than later, they would'nt talk about them publicly otherwise IMO.

Will be interesting to see what, if anything transpires over the next next 4-6 weeks. I'm very intrigued what improvements it can bring to the wide variety of lines.
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Black Sheep

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Re: FTTC - Distance from the Cabinet - Realistic speed estimate
« Reply #632 on: March 09, 2014, 03:58:12 AM »

Well said, Darren.

If they rushed it through without proper in-depth analysis, then certain members of this forum would be quick to slag them off when it would inevitably fail.  ;) ;D ;D

I don't care what the Ofcom paper says, the vectoring trial only started last year. This was using the FGPA Vector Engine which returned varying results. The very clever men who know more than us, have now said they wish to continue the trial using the new ASIC Vector Engine, as they are confident improved results will be returned.

So, 'urgency' is deemed as long as it takes to perfect the technology, not jumping because a low percentage of DSL users demand it. Patience is a virtue.
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c6em

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Re: FTTC - Distance from the Cabinet - Realistic speed estimate
« Reply #633 on: March 09, 2014, 09:54:03 AM »


As well as testing for cross talk from other lines I would hope they are testing where cabinets are placed in electromagnetically noise areas and the effect this environment has on the cabinet/cross talk correction routines.
So for one example cabinets near to railways lines.

As with all fast moving technology the problem is always the same from a purchasing evaluation point to view.
1. Do you buy established safe existing tech 'now' and risk being out of date earlier.
2. do you wait until better tech comes along so be more up to date for longer but at the cost of maintaining existing sub-optimal current systems for longer to your detriment.
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Chrysalis

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Re: FTTC - Distance from the Cabinet - Realistic speed estimate
« Reply #634 on: March 09, 2014, 03:31:50 PM »

Well said, Darren.

If they rushed it through without proper in-depth analysis, then certain members of this forum would be quick to slag them off when it would inevitably fail.  ;) ;D ;D

I don't care what the Ofcom paper says, the vectoring trial only started last year. This was using the FGPA Vector Engine which returned varying results. The very clever men who know more than us, have now said they wish to continue the trial using the new ASIC Vector Engine, as they are confident improved results will be returned.

So, 'urgency' is deemed as long as it takes to perfect the technology, not jumping because a low percentage of DSL users demand it. Patience is a virtue.

So you just confirmed what I said really.

You guys trying to argue with me over nothing.

In regards to the ofcom paper, I doubt ofcom are lieing, more likely this trial that started last year was the first field trial using customer lines.  BT have trialed the actual technology before that.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2014, 03:34:29 PM by Chrysalis »
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Black Sheep

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Re: FTTC - Distance from the Cabinet - Realistic speed estimate
« Reply #635 on: March 09, 2014, 07:55:31 PM »

On the contrary.

I have said the trials will continue until BT are satisfied the product is fit for purpose. You have said BT aren't being "Urgent" enough about it. Completely different takes on the subject, and I am not agreeing with you I'm afraid.

Once again, it seems that it doesn't matter what I say, you dismiss it out of hand and prefer the 'Slag BT off' route.  :no: :no:
Fed up with it now.
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Black Sheep

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Re: FTTC - Distance from the Cabinet - Realistic speed estimate
« Reply #636 on: March 09, 2014, 09:11:51 PM »


As well as testing for cross talk from other lines I would hope they are testing where cabinets are placed in electromagnetically noise areas and the effect this environment has on the cabinet/cross talk correction routines.
So for one example cabinets near to railways lines.

As with all fast moving technology the problem is always the same from a purchasing evaluation point to view.
1. Do you buy established safe existing tech 'now' and risk being out of date earlier.
2. do you wait until better tech comes along so be more up to date for longer but at the cost of maintaining existing sub-optimal current systems for longer to your detriment.

Barnet and Braintree were chosen for the trials, as Braintree is a quiet area in terms for RFI (radio frequency interference), while Barnet was relatively noisy, having a number of RF transmitters for local radio stations nearby.
Vectoring can only deal with crosstalk noise, it cannot deal or try to cancel noise from other sources RFI or REIN (Repetitive Electrical Impulsive Noise). Hence by using those two locations they hoped to be able to identify if there was any differences, if Vectoring was enabled (reducing crosstalk noise) in an area with high levels of RFI, compared to low levels.
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Darren

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Re: FTTC - Distance from the Cabinet - Realistic speed estimate
« Reply #637 on: March 09, 2014, 11:00:53 PM »

You guys trying to argue with me over nothing.
That's not my intention, all I intended was to express my opinion, which was that I disagree BT have vectoring on the back burner.
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Chrysalis

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Re: FTTC - Distance from the Cabinet - Realistic speed estimate
« Reply #638 on: March 11, 2014, 12:27:20 PM »

On the contrary.

I have said the trials will continue until BT are satisfied the product is fit for purpose. You have said BT aren't being "Urgent" enough about it. Completely different takes on the subject, and I am not agreeing with you I'm afraid.

Once again, it seems that it doesn't matter what I say, you dismiss it out of hand and prefer the 'Slag BT off' route.  :no: :no:
Fed up with it now.

ok we will have to agree to disagree then.

urgent means has to be done now.

eg. in my work like BT I tend to test things first before putting them in place, as I dont want things to break.  This is what I do most of the time as normal process.

However if a customer tells me they want something urgently, I either completely skip testing and just put it in place or I do very minimal testing, clearly we have different definitions of urgent.

Plus you openly said in your post I consider vectoring more urgent than BT does, which is exactly what I said, so you now disagreeing with yourself :)

I understand they your employer, you dont want to say anything bad about them at all in public, but there isnt anything bad about not been urgent I wasnt attacking BT.  I was just saying they dont consider vectoring as urgent.
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Chrysalis

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Re: FTTC - Distance from the Cabinet - Realistic speed estimate
« Reply #639 on: March 11, 2014, 12:30:39 PM »

You guys trying to argue with me over nothing.
That's not my intention, all I intended was to express my opinion, which was that I disagree BT have vectoring on the back burner.

I didnt say they had it on the back burner.

Something can still be a priority without been urgent.
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Black Sheep

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Re: FTTC - Distance from the Cabinet - Realistic speed estimate
« Reply #640 on: March 11, 2014, 03:44:32 PM »

On the contrary.

I have said the trials will continue until BT are satisfied the product is fit for purpose. You have said BT aren't being "Urgent" enough about it. Completely different takes on the subject, and I am not agreeing with you I'm afraid.

Once again, it seems that it doesn't matter what I say, you dismiss it out of hand and prefer the 'Slag BT off' route.  :no: :no:
Fed up with it now.

ok we will have to agree to disagree then.

urgent means has to be done now.

eg. in my work like BT I tend to test things first before putting them in place, as I dont want things to break.  This is what I do most of the time as normal process.

However if a customer tells me they want something urgently, I either completely skip testing and just put it in place or I do very minimal testing, clearly we have different definitions of urgent.

Plus you openly said in your post I consider vectoring more urgent than BT does, which is exactly what I said, so you now disagreeing with yourself :)
I understand they your employer, you dont want to say anything bad about them at all in public, but there isnt anything bad about not been urgent I wasnt attacking BT.  I was just saying they dont consider vectoring as urgent.

Where have I said that I consider vectoring more urgent than what BT do ???
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burakkucat

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Re: FTTC - Distance from the Cabinet - Realistic speed estimate
« Reply #641 on: March 11, 2014, 04:57:54 PM »

Baldy Bird's thread has been comprehensively hijacked . . .  :'(

[Edited to correct the mishap.]
« Last Edit: March 11, 2014, 05:27:14 PM by burakkucat »
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Black Sheep

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Re: FTTC - Distance from the Cabinet - Realistic speed estimate
« Reply #642 on: March 11, 2014, 05:09:30 PM »

It's, 'Has been', Mr Cat.  :P
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burakkucat

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Re: FTTC - Distance from the Cabinet - Realistic speed estimate
« Reply #643 on: March 11, 2014, 05:28:41 PM »

 :paperbag:  <-- Sad cat hides.
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kitz

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Re: FTTC - Distance from the Cabinet - Realistic speed estimate
« Reply #644 on: March 11, 2014, 06:03:45 PM »

d'oh I missed the tryp0?  Was it haz beens or baked beans?

Seriously though theres no point squabbling, at the end of the day BT will take their time as they usually do when it comes to new technologies. I have to agree that they do seem to take their time, but BT do often test, test test again and then come up with their own version.   I believe the trials BS mentioned are the first 'live' trials which historically tends to mean that if all goes well then it will slowly be rolled out to the rest of us.  I believe Plusnet were getting feedback on the tests too as they have several customers who are on the trials.

The ECI cabs could prove problematic because although vectoring can be done at a line card level, its not as efficient as a standalone vectoring module.  By efficient I mean in terms of spare lines and manual intervention.  The nearest I can equate it to is wanting to add a new PCI card into your PC, but youve run out of PCI slots.  The ECI cabs dont appear to have room or capability for a new module to be added, so its anyone's guess yet how BT will proceed with the ECIs.

I think we can all agree this technology is much needed and I have a suspicion that even BT may have been a bit unaware of just how much crosstalk would affecting some vdsl2 lines.. mines now nearing 20Mb and I wasnt even 1st on the cab. 

Whilst BT are far from perfect, they are still one of the few UK companies held in high esteem when it comes to telecoms technology world-wide.  Despite niggles if you look at the wider picture they do mostly tend to get things right.   We may not have the fastest speeds, but at least it isnt just limited to one or two major cities. Love them or hate them, there isnt any private company who could do a much better job and still remain in profit...  even though they may be slow when it comes to new technologies.

Anyhow, hopefully this thread can now get back on track :)
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