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Author Topic: FTTC - Distance from the Cabinet - Realistic speed estimate  (Read 253991 times)

razpag

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Re: FTTC - Distance from the Cabinet - Realistic speed estimate
« Reply #255 on: September 04, 2011, 09:50:35 AM »

Aha Paul, but this is 'Telecommunications' we are talking about, not building work. One thing is certain, if 'we' (Telco's) can make it difficult, then we will.  ;) ;D

Seriously, in answer to your question. When we became ' BT Openreach', there were lots of new rules & regs enforced that restricts who we can, or cannot discuss work issues with. I kid you not, if I'm sat in the Exchange Canteen area talking to another BTo engineer, and an engineer from BT Operate walks in, we have to end the convo. I appreciate we are different LOB's and this is the reason there are 'Undertakings' about who we can disclose info to.

We had a series of CBT modules regarding this subject in the early days of Openreach, and it was so intense and rigid and the consequences for non-compliance so harsh, that I decided then that I wouldn't talk to anyone anymore. Not even my wife, so there was a plus side. ;D

In reality, it is quite a 'grey' area. However, if it states on our job that a co-op call is required, then we have no choice but to speak with the ISP, 'we' don't get paid for the job if the ISP's required modules are not completed in full.

 
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Bald_Eagle1

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Re: FTTC - Distance from the Cabinet - Realistic speed estimate
« Reply #256 on: September 04, 2011, 10:06:02 AM »


We had a series of CBT modules regarding this subject in the early days of Openreach, and it was so intense and rigid and the consequences for non-compliance so harsh, that I decided then that I wouldn't talk to anyone anymore. Not even my wife, so there was a plus side. ;D

In reality, it is quite a 'grey' area. However, if it states on our job that a co-op call is required, then we have no choice but to speak with the ISP, 'we' don't get paid for the job if the ISP's required modules are not completed in full.
 


 :lol: Hahaha - every cloud has a silver lining.

Never mind a grey area, it sounds more like a whiter shade of pale to me.
Nobody has ever fully understood what all that was about either.
Oops! Might be giving my age away a bit there  ;)

Paul.
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razpag

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Re: FTTC - Distance from the Cabinet - Realistic speed estimate
« Reply #257 on: September 04, 2011, 10:18:40 AM »

Top song.
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waltergmw

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Re: FTTC - Distance from the Cabinet - Realistic speed estimate
« Reply #258 on: September 04, 2011, 01:16:00 PM »

@ Paul & RP,

I think we can all understand that BT O have to be seen to be separate from other parts of BT as well as the other service providers, all of who whom should be treated on an equal footing.

However we also all know that any form of broadband requires the best possible twisted pair circuit and also that the newer FTTC provision is unfamiliar territory, particularly to those untrained engineers who have legitimate access to the network for the provision of ordinary phone services. Furthermore any human intervention increases the risk of unreliability and service failure. In Paul's case there is evidence that one intervention disconnected his entire phone and broadband service and that the following rectification probably resulted in the double jumpering (which we all probably believe should never have happened whether by ignorance or human error). There is also evidence that the resulting replacement circuit (or FTTC service) does not perform as well as the original one. This situation is being hampered by the rules, processes, experience levels and discussions between the various parties involved and further hindered by reluctance caused by commercial pressures to conclude rectification works.

The big question is how do we get an adequate service restored to be at least as good as the original service ? I suspect matters need escalating both by the communications provider and the service provider. How that can be achieved is another matter entirely !

Kind regards,
Walter

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Bald_Eagle1

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Re: FTTC - Distance from the Cabinet - Realistic speed estimate
« Reply #259 on: September 05, 2011, 09:59:22 AM »

Dear Readers,

My port was flexed & my profile reset by BT 31st August.

It is now 5th September & there is no feedback other than to report the line "appears" stable with no crackling heard, but there is still no improvement to my download speeds.
Back on to Plusnet for the next step(s) then.

More feedback later, as & when/if it is received....................

Paul.
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burakkucat

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Re: FTTC - Distance from the Cabinet - Realistic speed estimate
« Reply #260 on: September 05, 2011, 05:53:25 PM »

b*cat has been thinking. Oh-ah-oops!, I suspect, is the response of readers of this post.

Mr Eagle would really like to know the attenuation and SNRM for his D-side copper to the DSLAM in the FTTC and, due to some "high up" decision, a block (a firewall rule, in fact) to deny access to those statistics was placed in the HG612 that is installed by OR as part of their infrastructure as CPE for all FTTC installations.

Earlier in this thread I suggested the purchase of a JDSU HST-3000C to enable those parameters to be measured. That would, even at second-hand prices, involve thousands of pounds.

Another way would be to find someone to remove the relevant firewall rule from the OR provided HG612 -- i.e. modify the HG612's firmware.

Here is the result of b*cat's ponderations. I have heard rumours that the FTTC DSLAM will adapt itself to what ever modem (within reason) that attempts to sync with it. Rather than buying an alternative VDSL modem[/router] -- as currently being documented in Walter's VDSL Modems for FTTC services thread -- why not do a very simple experiment? For under £10-00, purchase a new, unused, 2Wire 2700HGV via eBay. Once it arrives, power it up but do not connect it to the xDSL line or a computer. Once it has stabilised (the relay has clicked, the power LED is solid green, the broadband LED is slowly flashing green), connect it to a computer via an Ethernet cable using a static address & route of 192.168.1.254 and then open a web-browser to the 192.168.1.65 IP address. That should bring up the modem/router's home page. Go to the set password page (http://home/xslt?PAGE=C_0_1) and change its password from the default. Now go to the broadband routing page (http://home/xslt?PAGE=C_1_3) and block the evil influence of BT's provisioning server by setting up null routes so that the 2700HGV is unable to "phone home". (Just add "66.193.112.0 255.255.254.0 192.168.1.100 bridge0" and "64.186.176.0 255.255.240.0 192.168.1.100 bridge0". That will result in all attempts to contact the provisioning server failing. :)  ) Now connect the 2700HGV to the xDSL line and allow it to sync with the FTTC DSLAM. This is an unknown step . . . I have not yet tried it and will not be able to do so until next Sunday (11th September 2011). If the 2700HGV and DSLAM do sync (at ADSL2+ Annex whatever speeds), there will be both SNRM and attenuation values available from the DSL Diagnostics page (http://home/xslt?PAGE=C_5_3). And that, if it is successful, should be better than a poke in the eye with a burnt stick. ::)
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jeffbb

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Re: FTTC - Distance from the Cabinet - Realistic speed estimate
« Reply #261 on: September 05, 2011, 07:10:58 PM »

Hi
quote:still no improvement to my download speeds.
If you mean the actual throughput then that is something else .
If your connection is now good and quiet without LOTS of errors then the download speed will be dependent  on your current SNR margin ,profile,any capping by your ISP )
Regards Jeff
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Bald_Eagle1

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Re: FTTC - Distance from the Cabinet - Realistic speed estimate
« Reply #262 on: September 06, 2011, 12:35:43 AM »

Hi
quote:still no improvement to my download speeds.
If you mean the actual throughput then that is something else .
If your connection is now good and quiet without LOTS of errors then the download speed will be dependent  on your current SNR margin ,profile,any capping by your ISP )
Regards Jeff


@jeffbb,

Plusnet claim my connection is not capped on the dowstream, just the upstream is capped at 2 Mb.

From what I gathered from the last JDSU reading, everything looked reasonably O.K. downstream-wise, apart from my sync speed (& therefore download speeds). (SNRM was around 7 dB & attenuation was around 23 dB).

This leads me to believe the issue may well be faulty/stuck DSLAM/DLM equipment in the cabinet that may now require my D-side to be lifted & shifted to a different, previously unused DSLAM port that actually achieves 40 Mb at the cabinet, unlike the 22 Mb found when last tested by the BT engineer.

My IP Profile/bRAS rate is currently only 19410 k, allowing download speeds of only around 18 Mb or so.

Paul.
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Bald_Eagle1

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Re: FTTC - Distance from the Cabinet - Realistic speed estimate
« Reply #263 on: September 06, 2011, 12:44:22 AM »

Hi All,

Not really much of a cause for a celebration (apart from the friendly advice and assistance received from you all), but yesterday was the 2 month anniversary of my speed issues first rearing their ugly head, & tommorrow will be the 1 month anniversary of my posting the first question in this thread:-

"1) Can anyone give me a realistic estimate of the stable profile / download speeds that I should be able to achieve with a copper line length of around 0.5 mile to the cabinet?"


Paul.
« Last Edit: September 06, 2011, 12:46:54 AM by Bald_Eagle1 »
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alexrolls

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Re: FTTC - Distance from the Cabinet - Realistic speed estimate
« Reply #264 on: September 06, 2011, 03:26:32 PM »

Hi Bald_Eagle1,

Your support ticket has been updated.  I tried to call today but had to leave a voicemail.  I will try to call again tomorrow.
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Bald_Eagle1

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Re: FTTC - Distance from the Cabinet - Realistic speed estimate
« Reply #265 on: September 06, 2011, 08:36:34 PM »

Dear Readers,

Not very promising feedback from Plusnet's Alex Rolls today:-

Currently my line is operating at 20Mbps.
The profile set at the cabinet allows a speed up to 25Mbps currently.
This suggests that the line between my modem and the fibre cab is not capable of achieving a speed of 25Mbps with the current line configuration.

Whilst it's true that my line has seen higher speeds previously it may be that this is a burst speed and the line is not capable of transfering data at that rate long term.
Each time the line has been reset or an engineer has attended Plusnet are seeing the line eventually training back down to 20Mbps approximately.

As the line estimate is 14.6Mbps downstream then it may be that my maximum stable rate (MSR) is in the region of 20Mbps.
Bear in mind that nearly all ADSL lines could achieve a higher rate if Plusnet forced a faster line profile but left for a period of time the DLM would eventually return the line back to the MSR.

Alex will try to contact me again tomorrow to discuss this further as we didn't get the chance to speak over the phone today (not because it was crackling too much - it doesn't do that now anyway  ;D, but because I was in a meeting & had my mobile phone switched off)

More feedback tomorrow folks, but the inference from Alex's message isn't great is it?

I'm not sure that a couple of weeks of solid & stable download speeds of 30+ Mb, with no apparent random disconnections until the problems started could genuinely be seen as a burst speed though, could it?
I had certainly exceeded the 10 day DLM training period before the issues started.
The rest since then is well documented in this thread so I won't repeat it for all our sanity's sake.

Downstream attenuation 23dB, SNRM around 6dB, line length 820m = MSR of only 20Mb (half the maximum FTTC speed)? - Any fact based opinions anyone?

It would be nice, following the various BT caused issues, to be given a chance to try out a 40Mb at the cab connection & let DLM do its duty on my nice "fixed"  & now stable line though.

I wonder if anyone has physically checked the speed at the cab since it was last reported as 22 Mb?
If they have, I have not been informed of it. It could well still be at 22 Mb for all I know.

Now, if only I knew someone with a JDSU who just happened to be driving past PCP51 on Heywood Lane on their way home from work one day..................

EDIT:
Just as last thought, if I am currently achieving 20Mb from a 25Mb supposed cab speed, taking my latest stats into account, that equates to 80% of the cab speed.
If it does work pro-rata, 80 % of 40Mb at the cab would would equate to 32Mb. Haven't I mentioned that sort of speed earlier in this thread?



Paul.
« Last Edit: September 06, 2011, 09:22:15 PM by Bald_Eagle1 »
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burakkucat

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Re: FTTC - Distance from the Cabinet - Realistic speed estimate
« Reply #266 on: September 06, 2011, 10:51:45 PM »

Quote
I'm not sure that a couple of weeks of solid & stable download speeds of 30+ Mb, with no apparent random disconnections until the problems started could genuinely be seen as a burst speed though, could it?

There is no way that 2+ weeks of throughput (and not sync) downstream speeds of > 30 Mbps can be classified as a "burst".

I'm going to be quite blunt and speak my mind -- Either PlusNet are not telling the full story and have instructed OR, the owners and managers of the DSLAM within the FTTC associated with PCP51, not to set the DSLAM for 40 Mbps downstream sync or there is malfunctioning hardware within that FTTC which, currently, OR are unable to identify. (Or they have identified but, due to the cost involved, do not want to fix!)
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waltergmw

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Re: FTTC - Distance from the Cabinet - Realistic speed estimate
« Reply #267 on: September 06, 2011, 11:38:29 PM »

@ BKK,

I think you have that slightly wrong in that OR are not responsible for the DSLAM equipment which is probably owned by BT W. (There is proof positive around here if you look at a FTTC as the DSLAM compartment is fitted with star key locks whereas the IDC connector compartment has the standard triangle key locks.)

Kind regards,
Walter
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limbo

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Re: FTTC - Distance from the Cabinet - Realistic speed estimate
« Reply #268 on: September 07, 2011, 01:41:54 AM »

Hi everyone,

I've been watching this thread with interest, because I too have signed up to PN FTTC, since I would like something a bit faster than what we are currently getting (see this thread for more info!).

It is due for installation on Monday, and I have been given an estimated download speed of 11Mbps with a 2Mbps upload.

What I find most interesting is this comment in an email from PN I got today, confirming the installation procedure.

Quote
When the engineer completes the work you may not experience fibre speeds straight away. This is because we need to manually adjust your speed profile when the order completes, so the change should be effective within 48 hours. Please be patient with us whilst we do this for you.

Now is this saying that they are going to set the speed profile at 11Mbps and leave it there, meaning that there isn't a training period for the line, or is it standard that they have to manually put it up to 40Mbps and let it drop to a stable sync rate? Sounds like I might be given the stock estimated speed for the line, which, if the line is capable of more, would be a disappointment (which we are all unfortunately too familiar with here)  ??? ...

Thanks,
Thomas
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Bald_Eagle1

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Re: FTTC - Distance from the Cabinet - Realistic speed estimate
« Reply #269 on: September 07, 2011, 08:07:40 AM »

Hi everyone,

I've been watching this thread with interest, because I too have signed up to PN FTTC, since I would like something a bit faster than what we are currently getting (see this thread for more info!).

It is due for installation on Monday, and I have been given an estimated download speed of 11Mbps with a 2Mbps upload.

What I find most interesting is this comment in an email from PN I got today, confirming the installation procedure.

Quote
When the engineer completes the work you may not experience fibre speeds straight away. This is because we need to manually adjust your speed profile when the order completes, so the change should be effective within 48 hours. Please be patient with us whilst we do this for you.

Now is this saying that they are going to set the speed profile at 11Mbps and leave it there, meaning that there isn't a training period for the line, or is it standard that they have to manually put it up to 40Mbps and let it drop to a stable sync rate? Sounds like I might be given the stock estimated speed for the line, which, if the line is capable of more, would be a disappointment (which we are all unfortunately too familiar with here)  ??? ...

Thanks,
Thomas


Hi Thomas & welcome to Kitz.

I am also quite new on here too & my posts have concentrated in this thread for now.
The guys in this forum are realy helpful & may be able to address matters from your other thread a lot better than I can.
I will say though your issues sounded rather similar to my situation for a while.

It does sound like you have a problem somewhere that may well completely cock up your FTTC speeds though.
Hopefully, you will receive sufficient sound advice in your other thread about how to deal with that side of things.

If memory serves me right, your download & upload speeds look like mine did when I was on a fixed 0.5 Mb profile when I first had ADSL broadband installed, although my distance from the exchange of around 5000m is quite a bit more than yours.
I eventually ended up syncing at around 1 Mb when I switched to ADSLMax (variable rate).

In my case, I had to switch to a different Plusnet product (Value) in order to be eligible for FTTC as I had to be moved from a 20CN connection to a 21CN connection (actually cheaper than what I had been paying for the last few years) in readiness for FTTC. I presume your are moving directly from BT to Plusnet's FTTC so that matter possibly isn't relevant?

The manual speed profile adjustment just means that when FTTC is first installed via Plusnet, you will probably still see your old download speeds for a while. I did & I was given a similar message to yours warning me in advance.
This may well stump the installing engineer as he should be seeing FTTC speeds at your master socket straight away.
My installation engineer was reluctant to leave as he couldn't see the 30+Mb on my PC's speedtests that he told me I would be able to achive for my connection's conditions. He thought it very strange that Plusnet had to adjust my profile manually.

All it means is that unlike BT & their Infinity product where FTTC speeds are seen immediately, Plusnet will have to manually adjust your profile to FTTC's 37Mb (Plusnet's name for the FTTC profile) after the engineer has confirmed the FTTC installation is completed.
In theory, this should be just a few hours after installation, but as it is a manual process, it may take a little longer due to staff workloads etc.
In my case, it took around 1 hour before I could see FTTC download speeds.
Apparently, Plusnet appear to occasionally overlook the profile reset & you may end up having to call them to give it a nudge.

My speed estimate was 14.6 Mb & I achieved over 30 Mb for a while. I am currntly achieving around 20 Mb following a number of line issues as detailed in this very long thread.

It now seems like Plusnet are about to give up trying to resolve this for me.

What I would strongly advise, & I wish I had done it at the time, is ask the engineer to give you as many connection statstics he can from his JDSU or other meter that he will test your connection with at your master socket.
Photograph the display if he will allow you to.
It may well come in very handy if you later have speed issues & at least you will be able to refer back to your connection's conditions at installation time. See the attached photo for the minimum details the engineer should give you. I took the photo during one of the BT engineer's "fault finding" visits, but I didn't have any details from installation date to compare them against.
If he won't let you photograph them, at least write them down & be insistent if he tries to avoid telling you.

It would be very helpful for us in this thread if you could post those stats here too as a comparison with mine & any others' FTTC stats as you will not be able to obtain them for yourself from the BT supplied modem. It is locked against users accessing their own connection stats  >:(
This obviously makes any trouble shooting almost impossible, then having to rely on BT engineer visits that could potentially cost you a lot of money if no fault is found at the time of his visit.

As you have mentioned in your other thread, a lot of the "basic" BT line tests result in LTOK.
A lot of tests carried out on my line have resulted in LTOK, but I have not had to pay for any of the now numerous visits so far as I also had a crackly phone line & complete loss of phone & broadband for 4 days etc. that had to be thoroughly investigated bt BT at no charge to me.

Final advice:-
Run regular speedtests (using the same speedtester for consistency). I use speedtest.net as it stores all your results over a long period of time, even when using the unregistered version.
Run regular BT performance tests as these are logged by BT & Plusnet are also informed. Really useful if/when trying to report a "fault".

Do you know which cabinet you will be connected to i.e. the line length from the cabinet to your home?
Once FTTC is installed, the line length all the way from the exchange can be ignored for broadband purposes.

Good luck, but be warned that as FTTC is fairly new technology, we don't fully understand exactly how it works yet, INCLUDING PLUSNET & SOME BT ENGINEERS & you may be given irrelevant "reasons" if your connection isn't performing properly.
e.g. both Plusnet & a visiting "special BT broadband engineer" have at some stage told me that I shouldn't expect high speeds from FTTC as my line is 5283m long. THAT IS ACTUALLY THE DISTANCE FROM THE EXCHANGE, NOT THE FTTC CABINET!!!!

Today's speed test result:-


Paul.

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« Last Edit: September 07, 2011, 08:30:02 AM by Bald_Eagle1 »
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