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Author Topic: Slow and variable 2MB broadband speeds  (Read 5457 times)

mark_r

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Slow and variable 2MB broadband speeds
« on: September 29, 2007, 03:54:50 PM »

Sorry this is so long, but wanted to provide all info. Any thoughts would be much appreciated.

About a month ago my ‘old’ BT 2MB bb slowed down substantially and has been erratic ever since. At first, it seemed worse during the day, speeding up in the evenings and weekends, but over the past week this pattern has become less predictable. I’ve had bb for 5 years and never had a problem – it’s always been very stable and fast, which is why I’ve so easily noticed the current drop in speed. Downloading, receiving attachments, streaming and browsing have almost ground to a halt at times. Even when it’s speeded up again, it still seems to ‘pause’ a lot, although I’ve never lost the connection.

I’ve been running a variety of speed tests but the results just baffle me. I can run 3 different testers in succession and get 100kbps on one, 950kbps on another and 1800kbps on another. I can run the same tests 30mins later and get 350kbps on each. Also, it’s often the case that if speedtester.bt.com comes out high, speedtest.net will be very low and vice versa, and neither will correspond to the actual speed of  tasks at the time. Transfer rates for downloads vary from 200KB/s down to 8KB/s for the same files downloaded within an hour of each other.

I’ve got 2 PC’s, 2 routers and a set of microfilters, and checked all possible set-ups in the test socket, with the same results - which rules out problems with hardware, software and wiring. BT are telling me there is no line fault because the line test at their end shows my speed is consistently 2300kbps. I’ve tried to discuss my own results with them but what comes to light is that they do not log these at all (despite what it says on their tester home page) and even worse, they don’t actually pay attention to the speed at the customers end when assessing a problem. They admit that speeds of less than 400kbps are poor but unless it showed up at their end then it’s not an issue. I’ve tried to raise whether it could be a congestion problem but whilst they say that heavy local traffic could cause it to slow down, they are unable to explain why this would have suddenly started happening a month ago.

They have since ‘refreshed the exchange’ - god knows what this is, but all it’s done is cause me to now hear my own voice back through the earpiece of my phone. They’ve reluctantly agreed to send an engineer but if he can’t locate a problem I’ll have to bear the cost.

I live half a mile from some really major commercial and residential building works. Am I clutching at straws to think this could be a contributory factor?

Gateway checker on plusnet:
You are currently connected to the "unknown" gateway
You appear to be using a connection over the RIN network

Only been looking at SNR margin and line attenuation in the last week. Each changes throughout the day:
Local Line Atten: highest = 38.5 lowest = 37
Local SNR Margin: highest = 25.5, lowest = 16.5
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roseway

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Re: Slow and variable 2MB broadband speeds
« Reply #1 on: September 29, 2007, 04:44:47 PM »

Hi Mark, and welcome.

If I understand correctly, you are on a fixed 2 Mbps connection and not ADSL Max. (If I'm wrong then the following is irrelevant). The thing about fixed speed connections is that they either work at full speed or they don't work at all, unlike Max which can connect at widely different speeds at different times. So if you're not suffering frequent disconnections then the explanation for your problem is not your connection to the exchange. Interference from building works or anything else is not a factor.

So the only likely causes of such widely varying speeds are (I think) exchange congestion, congestion in the ISP's part of the network, or traffic shaping by the ISP. I fear that the engineer will find nothing wrong with your line and you'll get a bill for his visit.

I should add that I know nothing about the RIN network which you are connected to, and this may be a factor but I'm unable to say. I think you have to fight this one out with PlusNet.
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mark_r

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Re: Slow and variable 2MB broadband speeds
« Reply #2 on: September 29, 2007, 06:18:50 PM »

Thanks for the quick reply Eric. Yes, as far as I know I'm on a fixed 2Mbps connection, unless BT have switched me without telling me - which I assume they can't do. You've confirmed my fears about the engineer, and also my own initial instincts that this is a 'remote' problem - although how this can cause speeds as low as 100kbps is beyond me.

The thing is BT are my ISP (not Plusnet), but as their technical support are incapable of discussing any problems other than line faults I am now absolutely stuck as to how to proceed - it seems amazing that they aren't prepared to investigate further or even consider other potential causes when I obviously can't do anymore at my end. Happy to take my money of course. Really, from about 6 conversations with them, their attitude is that I'm making it all up!
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kitz

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Re: Slow and variable 2MB broadband speeds
« Reply #3 on: October 04, 2007, 01:24:20 PM »

The symptoms certainly seem to indicate congestion somewhere.

Cant help but notice this

"You appear to be using a connection over the RIN network"

 I have a login to RIN and TBH at times over the past month or so it has been pretty dire... admittedly not quite as bad as what youve been seeing, but there are times when Ive struggled to get much more than 1mb..  yet I can then swap the line to a Plusnet connection and immediately get 7Mb.
This test can (and has) been replicated many times and something that Ive harped on about more than once to my ISP.

>>  it still seems to ‘pause’ a lot

again something Ive seen - and one night when it was particulary bad I couldnt even seen to access certain sites.


>> Also, it’s often the case that if speedtester.bt.com comes out high, speedtest.net will be very low

Theres a reason for that - (I see exactly the same).  When on RIN the test you perform still stays on the BT platform and doesnt exit one of the PoPs that go "on to the internet".

>> and vice versa

That bit is weird - no explanation for that.


IMHO BT are "playing" with ellacoyas and havent got things set up right yet.  I strongly suspect BT have placed the ellacoyas on the PoPs
My findings are that I can open up several threads (say on usenet) and get some decentish speeds... but http (such as web browsing and http speedtesters) can easily be affected.

The adslguide speedtester was at one point throwing up some weird results (0.1Mbps) and I spoke with Seb from TBB about this. Theyve since changed their speedtester so you can select to run speedtests over http  (select the port 80 option).

If I were you I would stick to doing speedtests on one particular tester (such as the adslguide one) and present your findings to BT using that.



>> since ‘refreshed the exchange’ - god knows what this is, but all it’s done is cause me to now hear my own voice back through the earpiece of my phone.

Not sure what refreshed is either..  you should certainly not be hearing an echo back down the phone though.
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mark_r

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Re: Slow and variable 2MB broadband speeds
« Reply #4 on: October 05, 2007, 03:13:44 PM »

Thanks for your thoughts Kitz. What I'm a bit unclear about is RIN - is this just the standard network a BT customer would be on, or is it something unusual? What you suggest makes perfect sense, but surely there would be a loads of others suffering (and complaining) in the same way, not just me?

It's interesting that you are able to provide this level of insight and opinion and yet BT are incapable of even discussing the matter. They have made it clear that they will not pay attention to or keep a log of my own readings whilst there isn't a problem on the line. All I really want is a conversation with them about what else might be causing this and yet it's just not possible to speak to someone in the know. I guess they don't want to admit that they are 'playing' around with things.

Since I first posted this I've noticed that the TBB tester results correspond most closely to the speed I 'percieve' to be getting at the time, but these results continue to be completely different to speedtester.bt.com.
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kitz

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Re: Slow and variable 2MB broadband speeds
« Reply #5 on: October 05, 2007, 05:12:42 PM »

RIN = Retail Internet Network

Basically there are several ways which adsl bandwidth can be provisioned ie IPStream DataStream or LLU.
IPStream is BT Wholesales offering and this is split into two ways again which it can be provisioned - The ISP uses the BTs backhaul and they buy their own centrals for which traffic is forwarded on to the internet, or they can let BT Wholesale handle the bit that goes straight off onto the Internet. (RIN).

At present there is only BT Broadband that fully utilises RIN.  Plusnet mostly have their own centrals, but they also use some LLU and they also have a few thousand customers on  accounts who can connect via RIN.


>> but surely there would be a loads of others suffering (and complaining) in the same way, not just me?

Its not just you - there have been a few other users from my own ISP who use RIN who have also noticed the same thing.  But there have also been some on my ISP using RIN who have not experienced any problems. 

One particular night when it was bad one of the things we did identify was that both me and someone else who had noticed things were poor where both coming off the backhaul on the same PoP, whereas a user who was saying it was ok was passing through a different PoP.  I was going through the Manchester RAS and coming off at t2c1-ge13-0-0.uk-eal.eu.bt.net (Ealing PoP).  You can see wich PoP you pass through by performing a tracert.
One thing I do notice as well sometimes when things are bad is that tracert times can be erratic, but again not always.


You certainly arent the only BT Broadband customer who has noticed this - Ive seen quite a few BT customers on other forums also saying the same thing.  But some are ok. Those users who have challenged BT Broadband about it havent really got anywhere and BT seem to be stonewalling / denying theres a problem. I suspect there are many BT Broadband customers who also wouldnt be technically adept enough to notice there is a problem :/

In view of the above its my [unproven] theory that speed depends upon how busy the particular switch at the PoP is (think reverse of exchange contention - only this time at the other end of the BT backhaul) as to how much slow down you will see.

If this is the case then it is also very probable that you will see various speeds depending on where you "hop off" the backbone before you are routed on to the next hop of your journey.

Trying to think of an easy way to decribe what I mean.  The following isnt strictly true but it hopefully gives an idea of what Im getting at - But say for eg you lived up in Scotland and you "hopped on" at Edinburgh RAS.   If you were trying to reach somewhere that had a server located in say Telecity in Manchester  then youd "Hop off" at the Manchester PoP which could be relatively quiet and youd see decent speeds. 
Then you want to reach somewhere that has a server located at Telehouse in London, you may then "hop off" at say Ealing which is busy therefore the ellacoya switch performs "more management" because its busy.

>>  I've noticed that the TBB tester results correspond most closely to the speed I 'percieve' to be getting at the time, but these results continue to be completely different to speedtester.bt.com.

The TBB speedtester is from the Internet and to access it you will have to pass through one of the PoPs scattered around the UK. 
The speedtester at speedtester.bt.com is still on the internal BT network therefore no PoPs to go through which is where the ellacoyas (switches that handle any traffic shaping) are most likely to be placed.

I'm really sorry I dont know what else to suggest -
Ive got no-where with my findings on RIN that Ive reported to my ISP and BT dont seem to be feeding much  info back to them either about this.  For the time being Ive given up on RIN and gone back to using my Plusnet connection.

What I would do if I were you and be consistant with the speedtester you feed back reports to them with (ie the TBB one).
You could perhaps try to explain that the problem only occurs with "real internet connections" and not using a speedtester which is still part of the BT network.   Though getting through to BT helpdesk staff sometimes isnt easy...  you may fall lucky and get someone who does have half an idea of how the BT infrastructure is maintained.  :(



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mr_chris

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Re: Slow and variable 2MB broadband speeds
« Reply #6 on: October 07, 2007, 10:49:47 AM »

Quote from: kitz
If you were trying to reach somewhere that had a server located in say Telecity in Manchester  then youd "Hop off" at the Manchester PoP

I thought that too, but I can't make it work :(

I've tried a load of manchester-based websites on RIN and they all seem to go via London and back up again. (I'm on the Manchester RAS)

So whilst your theory would be the most sensible, it doesn't seem to happen like that. Does that mean they have the ellacoyas all at the one place in the chain?
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kitz

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Re: Slow and variable 2MB broadband speeds
« Reply #7 on: October 08, 2007, 11:17:27 AM »

One of the reasons why I said " The following isnt strictly true but it hopefully gives an idea of what Im getting at" it was a kind of extreme example
No-one can ever say what routing you are going to take over the BT cloud. - But it certainly is possible to come off at different PoPs depending upon where the onward transit is.


For example a couple of tracerts Ive just done now

1) coming off at the Ilford PoP

C:\Documents and Settings\kitz>tracert bbc.co.uk
Tracing route to bbc.co.uk [212.58.224.131] over a maximum of 30 hops:

  1     1 ms     1 ms    <1 ms  192.168.7.100
  2     9 ms     9 ms     8 ms  217.47.204.58
  3     8 ms     8 ms     8 ms  217.47.251.161
  4    10 ms     8 ms     8 ms  217.41.173.13
  5    14 ms     8 ms     8 ms  217.41.173.150
  6     8 ms     8 ms     8 ms  217.41.173.46
  7     8 ms     8 ms     8 ms  217.47.251.114
  8     8 ms     8 ms     *     londonc-access2-s9.ukcore.bt.net [194.72.2.249]
  9    14 ms    14 ms    13 ms  core1-pos0-1-5-0.ilford.ukcore.bt.net [62.6.201.117]
 10    13 ms    13 ms    13 ms  core1-pos9-0-0.telehouse.ukcore.bt.net [62.6.201.118]
 11    15 ms    13 ms    15 ms  194.74.65.6
 12    13 ms    13 ms    13 ms  212.58.238.129
 13    13 ms    13 ms    13 ms  rdirwww-vip.thdo.bbc.co.uk [212.58.224.131]


example 2 - coming off at ealing PoP

C:\Documents and Settings\kitz>tracert www.kitz.co.uk
Tracing route to kitz.co.uk [195.62.28.175] over a maximum of 30 hops:

  1     1 ms     1 ms     1 ms  192.168.7.100
  2     9 ms     9 ms     8 ms  217.47.204.58
  3     8 ms     8 ms     8 ms  217.47.251.161
  4     9 ms     8 ms     8 ms  217.41.173.13
  5     8 ms     9 ms    13 ms  217.41.173.150
  6     8 ms     8 ms     8 ms  212.140.206.46
  7     9 ms     9 ms     7 ms  217.47.158.83
  8    17 ms     8 ms     8 ms  core1-pos3-1.manchester.ukcore.bt.net [194.72.2.41]
  9    14 ms    14 ms    14 ms  core1-pos0-7-0-12.ealing.ukcore.bt.net [62.6.200.109]
 10    14 ms    13 ms    14 ms  62.6.200.110
 11    13 ms    12 ms    13 ms  t2c1-ge14-0-0.uk-eal.eu.bt.net [166.49.168.25]
 12    13 ms    13 ms    13 ms  t2c2-p1-0.uk-lon1.eu.bt.net [166.49.208.210]
 13    14 ms    13 ms    13 ms  t2a1-ge7-0-0.uk-lon1.eu.bt.net [166.49.135.110]
 14    14 ms    14 ms    19 ms  ge-5-0-4.lon11.ip.tiscali.net [213.200.78.5]
 15    14 ms    14 ms    14 ms  uk-webhosting-gw.ip.tiscali.net [213.200.78.114]
 16    15 ms    15 ms    15 ms  thermalseven.footholds.net [195.62.28.175]

 [/i]

Example 3 - coming off at Birmingham PoP

C:\Documents and Settings\kitz>tracert www.metoffice.gov.uk

Tracing route to www.metoffice.gov.uk [151.170.240.7] over a maximum of 30 hops:

  1    <1 ms     1 ms    <1 ms  192.168.7.100
  2    15 ms    13 ms    15 ms  217.47.204.58
  3    13 ms    13 ms    14 ms  217.47.251.161
  4    11 ms    10 ms    10 ms  217.41.173.13
  5    15 ms    11 ms    10 ms  217.41.173.150
  6    10 ms    11 ms    11 ms  217.41.173.54
  7    14 ms    13 ms    11 ms  217.41.165.242
  8    10 ms    10 ms    10 ms  core2-pos12-3.manchester.ukcore.bt.net [194.72.2.157]
  9    13 ms    13 ms    13 ms  core2-pos5-1.birmingham.ukcore.bt.net [194.74.16.186]
 10    10 ms    10 ms    12 ms  interconnect1-gig2-0.birmingham.fixed.bt.net [62.6.196.10]
 11    24 ms    22 ms    22 ms  ftip002779089-ms-fo.interconnect1.birmingham.fixed-nte.bt.net [194.73.17.146]
 12    23 ms    24 ms    26 ms  www.meto.gov.uk [151.170.240.7]

Trace complete.


Bletchly PoP

C:\Documents and Settings\kitz>tracert bt.com

Tracing route to bt.com [217.32.165.148] over a maximum of 30 hops:

  1     1 ms     1 ms     1 ms  192.168.7.100
  2    10 ms     8 ms     8 ms  217.47.204.58
  3     8 ms     9 ms     8 ms  217.47.204.161
  4     8 ms     9 ms    10 ms  217.41.173.9
  5    10 ms     8 ms     9 ms  217.41.173.66
  6    11 ms     9 ms     8 ms  217.41.173.150
  7     9 ms     8 ms     8 ms  212.140.206.38
  8     8 ms     8 ms     8 ms  217.47.67.83
  9     8 ms     8 ms     8 ms  core1-pos7-1.manchester.ukcore.bt.net [194.72.2.62]
 10    11 ms    11 ms    11 ms  core1-pos13-1.bletchley.ukcore.bt.net [194.74.16.142]
 11    11 ms    11 ms    11 ms  vhsaccess1-pos7-0.bletchley.fixed.bt.net [62.6.197.134]
 12    12 ms    11 ms    11 ms  ftip002587721-p.vhsaccess1.bletchley.fixed-nte.bt.net [217.32.244.70]


Glasgow Pop

C:\Documents and Settings\kitz>tracert bt.net

Tracing route to bt.net [193.113.211.125] over a maximum of 30 hops:

  1     1 ms     1 ms     1 ms  192.168.7.100
  2    13 ms     8 ms     8 ms  217.47.204.58
  3     8 ms     8 ms     9 ms  217.47.251.161
  4     9 ms    10 ms    10 ms  217.41.173.13
  5     9 ms    10 ms     8 ms  217.41.173.150
  6     9 ms     9 ms     8 ms  217.41.173.62
  7     8 ms     8 ms     8 ms  217.47.109.114
  8     9 ms     9 ms     9 ms  londonc-access3-s28.ukcore.bt.net [194.72.2.189]
  9    13 ms    13 ms    13 ms  core2-pos9-0.glasgow.ukcore.bt.net [194.74.16.178]
 10    15 ms    14 ms    14 ms  vhsaccess1-gig2-0.glasgow.fixed.bt.net [217.32.170.158]
 11    13 ms    12 ms    13 ms  ftip002676159.vhsaccess1.glasgow.fixed-nte.bt.net [213.121.156.38]



However, I must admit that Ealing, Ilford, and Kingston do seem to be the most common that Ive seen.

AND like you I too dont seem to be able to "come off" at Manchester - why I dont know - What should route me direct to Manchester seems to go down to Ealing and back up again.  ???
BUT we do know that at least on the "normal" BT system,  it does allow for Manchester RAS to Manchester PoPs. ie theres the Zen customers on the Manchester RAS going direct to a Manchester server without having to go via london. 
I seem to recall quite a few instances in the past where Ive seen Scotland users go through the Edinburgh RAS and then it also lists the Manchester/Birmingham PoP as a hop. 

As regards to someone on RIN on the same RAS - well thats just a weird one - and as you know that doesnt even go anywhere near Colossus (core) - but then again I suppose BT dont expect anyone to be able to do too much damage with a direct connection when the upstream is going to be limited anyhow to 448/832 kbps

C:\Documents and Settings\kitz>tracert [to mr_chris - IP address removed}

Tracing route to host86-156-xxx-xxx.range86-156.btcentralplus.com [86.156.xxx.xxx] over a maximum of 30 hops:

  1     1 ms    <1 ms    <1 ms  192.168.7.100
  2     9 ms     8 ms     9 ms  217.47.204.58
  3     8 ms     8 ms     8 ms  217.47.204.161
  4     8 ms    10 ms     9 ms  217.41.173.9
  5    49 ms    15 ms     9 ms  217.41.173.66
  6    11 ms    11 ms    10 ms  217.41.173.150
  7     9 ms     9 ms    11 ms  172.16.243.37
  8     8 ms     8 ms     *     212.140.206.14
  9     9 ms     8 ms     8 ms  217.47.158.23
 10    21 ms    17 ms    17 ms  host86-156-xxx-xx.range86-156.btcentralplus.com [86.156.xxx.xxx]

Trace complete.


At the end of the day - this is BT and what they do and how (and why) is still sometimes a bit of a mystery :(
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mr_chris

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Re: Slow and variable 2MB broadband speeds
« Reply #8 on: October 08, 2007, 02:30:06 PM »

Ah, I hadn't spotted the ealing / ilford / bletchley differences - I guess I was so hung up on looking for Manchester!

Sorry, wasn't trying to say you were wrong, just that I couldn't get it to work.

I wish BT would publish more information about their network so that the likes of us could learn from it and understand what was happening. Unfortunately I doubt that'll ever happen, but it would be nice, instead of having to guess all the time!
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kitz

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Re: Slow and variable 2MB broadband speeds
« Reply #9 on: October 08, 2007, 10:39:58 PM »

>> I hadn't spotted the ealing / ilford / bletchley differences - I guess I was so hung up on looking for Manchester!

This one has me puzzled too and something that Ive been mulling over.
We know that the BTw has the facility to route from the Manchester RAS to a Manchester Server

example
Quote
1 * * * Request timed out.
2 9 ms 9 ms 9 ms gay-dsl1.wh.zen.net.uk [62.3.83.20]


- So Why on earth would RIN do this to the routing to the same location?

Quote
Tracing route to gay-dsl1.wh.zen.net.uk [62.3.83.20] over a maximum of 30 hops:

  1     1 ms     1 ms     1 ms  192.168.7.100
  2     9 ms     8 ms     8 ms  217.47.204.58
  3     8 ms     8 ms     8 ms  217.47.204.161
  4     8 ms     9 ms     8 ms  217.41.173.9
  5     8 ms     8 ms     8 ms  217.41.173.122
  6     8 ms     8 ms     8 ms  212.140.206.42
  7     8 ms     8 ms     8 ms  217.47.158.51
  8     8 ms     8 ms     8 ms  core1-pos3-1.manchester.ukcore.bt.net [194.72.2.41]
  9    15 ms    14 ms    14 ms  core1-pos0-8-0-7.ilford.ukcore.bt.net [194.74.65.113]
 10    13 ms    14 ms    14 ms  194.74.65.114
 11    14 ms    14 ms    21 ms  linx-1.zen.net.uk [195.66.224.158]
 12    21 ms    21 ms    21 ms  erazmus-so-0-1-0-0.wh.zen.net.uk [62.3.80.46]
 13    21 ms    21 ms    23 ms  gay-dsl1.wh.zen.net.uk [62.3.83.20]

Explanation for anyone that doesnt realise whats going on:-

Hop 1 ~ From my home  I traverse the ATM cloud for approx 50 miles to
Hop 2 ~ a Switch at the Manchester RAS
Hops 3-7 ~  I bounce around Manchester going through various switches/routers which is to be expected.
Hop 8 ~ Join the UK Core Network (Colossus) at Manchester.
Hop 9 ~ Arrive at Ilford PoP
Hop 10 ~ Although it doesnt say, this is actually another PoP at Telehouse, Docklands.
Hop 11 ~ LINX (London Internet Exchange) where zen have a peer point.
Hop 12 ~ Erazmus is one of Zens Servers in Manchester
Hop 13 ~ One of Zen's Central Pipes.

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ARGHHHHHHHHHH  :doh:- and whilst typing that out I got to Hop 11 (LINX) and just had a thought :idea:
- Does Zen have an Internet peer point with BT.net at Manchester? Because if they dont - kerching!
iirc Zen do have an internet peer at Manchester but isnt that for transatlantic routing to NY?

Its going to depend on where the Internet peer  is... and where are most Peer points?
- Theyre down in London ie telehouse or telecity... and that could well explain why so much of BTws routing on to the internet goes through either Ilford/Ealing etc.

Looking up JA.NET - they clearly list their Network and show their peer and transit points - linky

Quote
BTnet  Via LINX (Telehouse C-PoP)


- So that probably explains why.  Yes one of JaNETs servers may be in Manchester, but to access the server also depends on the peer point location. JaNET is a huge network - but in itself its a private network and you can only enter where there is an access point onto that network.

Colossus isnt the "INTERNET" its a backbone that will forward to a PoP where there is a peer point to the Internet or another Network at a point where access is allowed.

Yes Zen may have a PoP at Manchester - but that PoP isnt for "the Internet" - the PoP is for connecting their [zen] customers from the ATM network on to their [Zens] Central Pipes only.

Right Track?

Because although we know that say Plusnet homepage servers are in Sheffield there aint no way you are ever going to be able to direct access them from Manchester to Sheffield.

To access the Homepage Server you have to be able to access PlusNets Network first.. and all their transit provision or peer points are at one of the Telehouses in London - (ISP network) so of course you are gonna have to go down to Ilford/Ealing first.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2007, 10:52:00 PM by kitz »
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mr_chris

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Re: Slow and variable 2MB broadband speeds
« Reply #10 on: October 08, 2007, 11:31:20 PM »

>> Right Track?

Yes, I definately think so :) Well deduced, Sherlock Kitz ;D

Although it does make me wonder why more peering isn't done at Manchester, for country-wide resiliency etc. It makes me a bit nervy how the entire UK's Internet is almost entirely dependent on the datacentres at London Docklands!!
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Chris