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Author Topic: FTTC- Possible REIN Issues?  (Read 63698 times)

roseway

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Re: FTTC- Possible REIN Issues?
« Reply #120 on: April 01, 2011, 12:44:46 PM »

I must say, I find that last point hard to accept. REIN can be caused by many different sources, and there's no reason to believe that 612 kHz is unique. A sparking thermostat, for example, will produce interference over a wide band of frequencies, and anything within the ADSL range can disrupt the connection. I rather suspect that 612 kHz just happens to be a frequency around the middle of the range which is used by the BT test equipment.
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jeffbb

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Re: FTTC- Possible REIN Issues?
« Reply #121 on: April 01, 2011, 03:34:17 PM »

Hi
quote : Other interferences at different frequencies found on bit-loading graphs will not be associated with REIN apparently.

Maybe not in all cases , if for example there is no sign of spiking on the SNR margin .Then other causes need to be investigated .


(Random Electrical Impulse Noise) ...  I must admit I would have thought that the title itself implies a wide band of interference ,not a single frequency ,as far as I know noise covers a wide band of frequencies .


Regards Jeff

 

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waltergmw

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Re: FTTC- Possible REIN Issues?
« Reply #122 on: April 01, 2011, 04:18:11 PM »

The other point perhaps worth examining is one of terminology. I wonder if Radio Frequency Interference might more accurately reflect many of our difficulties.
You'll probably remember many of my bit loading diagrams with very large "holes" in them which remain almost constant so are probably not random.

I suspect we have to deal with both scenarios where some lines have constant noise and others only get swamped occasionally presumably when a rogue device is switched.

Kind regards,
Walter
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roseway

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Re: FTTC- Possible REIN Issues?
« Reply #123 on: April 01, 2011, 04:40:20 PM »

You're quite right there, Walter. The I in REIN stands for 'impulse' which is a particular type of interference which tends to be intermittent and is generally caused by faulty electrical equipment. But there is also electrical interference which is not impulsive in nature, but can be just as disruptive to an ADSL connection.
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burakkucat

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Re: FTTC- Possible REIN Issues?
« Reply #124 on: April 01, 2011, 04:51:15 PM »

So, at the moment, we are waiting for Mr Ezzer to pass by and dispense some words of wisdom.  :)
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magicone

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Re: FTTC- Possible REIN Issues?
« Reply #125 on: April 01, 2011, 05:30:14 PM »

The engineers arrived this morning and were still unable to find the source of the REIN. Does anyone know how long they are able to keep on searching for it? They must have some sort of limit as to how many times they can keep coming out to the area?
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razpag

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Re: FTTC- Possible REIN Issues?
« Reply #126 on: April 01, 2011, 05:45:08 PM »

So, at the moment, we are waiting for Mr Ezzer to pass by and dispense some words of wisdom.  :)

Exactly. Until somebody with factual knowledge pops along and enlightens us, all we are doing is surmising and throwing in our own two-penneth.

Magicone ...... that's a good question. When I had the REIN team out for a whole village being off, obviously they stuck around until its fruition. Because the REIN engineer cannot detect anything when on-site at your job, and there's only the one job been raised (IE- your house, nobody elses), then I would imagine he/she will not stick around forever. As I keep saying though, I'm NOT an expert in REIN and its associated nuances and protocols, so again I am only surmising mate.  ;D
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magicone

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Re: FTTC- Possible REIN Issues?
« Reply #127 on: April 01, 2011, 05:55:15 PM »

The other neighbours that have had issues have not had it logged by their ISP as a REIN issue, presumably as they don't want to be charged £125 if BTOR find no fault, so I suppose I am on my own. My parents are both keen on changing providers now but Im sticking with it for now, not sure if I will be able to cancel my contract due to REIN.
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jeffbb

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Re: FTTC- Possible REIN Issues?
« Reply #128 on: April 01, 2011, 07:57:19 PM »

Hi

REIN is normally recognised by the very spiky appearance on SNR margin/snr trace .

As I understand it Some routers quote SNR margin at 300KHZ . Others use some algorithm  to calculate it . So it does seem that the NOISE must be over the whole spectrum otherwise how would the SNR graphs  display the noise spikes associated with REIN?.

I believe that the most likely reason that 612 kHz is used is that there are virtually no transmitters at that frequency.nearest UK MW frequency  603 and 630KHz . To be able to detect the low level of noise involved you need to have no broadcaster around . (I do seem to remember that Ezzer did have some problem with one transmitter in one area) .

Regards Jeff

Edit  if 612KHz was the only frequency where the noise could be detected then tone 142 would surely be affected ?
« Last Edit: April 01, 2011, 08:01:50 PM by jeffbb »
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razpag

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Re: FTTC- Possible REIN Issues?
« Reply #129 on: April 01, 2011, 08:29:35 PM »

Well, well, well. I've found a very informative (and extremely scientific) site on our Intranet regarding REIN and all other interferences.

I am not allowed to copy any of the content, or show anyone outside my LoB, but Jeff (and others) is spot-on. 612Khz is only used on a portable radio as no other stations are around this frequency.

The other OP's are also correct about REIN affecting the whole spectrum of 25-138Khz (Upstream)  and 138Khz-2.2Mhz (Downstream). REIN is normally associated with power-switching harmonics, as opposed to non-switched power harmonics, with the latter not generally extending beyond 1850Hz.

There's a veritable encyclopedic read in relation to this subject !!!
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lemzip

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Re: FTTC- Possible REIN Issues?
« Reply #130 on: April 03, 2011, 01:19:56 AM »

so really the best way to find REIN is to tune in your radio to the freg affected from say DMT TOOL unless there is a radio station broadcasting on it?

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jeffbb

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Re: FTTC- Possible REIN Issues?
« Reply #131 on: April 03, 2011, 05:38:05 PM »

Hi

Always worth a try ! , 612Khz is as good as any though because its  about mid range on ADSL , .

Of course if there is a definite gap on bit loading it might be worth tuning to the frequency to confirm that its a radio station or something else causing the drop in bit loading .

Regards Jeff
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coolsnakeman

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Re: FTTC- Possible REIN Issues?
« Reply #132 on: April 04, 2011, 06:27:48 PM »

Hey,

Sometimes i think you guys have to much time on your hands lol. And razpag are you not meant to be working hahaha. Just messing. Just on the topic of "how many times will the REIN engineer come out" well my opinion and don't take this as gospel they will have to keep coming out if you keep reporting the fault. Try and perhaps convince your surrounding area to get involved with this and once again don't take this as gospel but a majority of service providers pays the bills for the engineer visits i know BT,sky and 02 pay the bills only cause 1 i work for BT and also had BT before and had an engineer out and 2 i worked for sky and also had engineers out with them to. I don't work for 02 but i have had 2 engineers from them and not been hit with a bill. Think its only really PSTN faults that are chargeable if the fault is found to being your own equipment or the line tests ok. Not to sure about the other service providers now so its always best to ask technical support if they re-direct the charges to you or if they pay the charge. One word of advise if the advisor doesn't advise of possible charges before sending an engineer then you CAN'T be charged cause you have to be made aware of this think it may be an ofcom regulation not to sure. This information if you find out more might lead to convincing the surrounding area to report there problem to there service providers cause as it was mentioned earlier although BT are not allowed to have favoritism they will notice about 50 reports of the same issue in the same area on there systems and will have to investigate that further for definite.

Regards
Gary
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Ezzer

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Re: FTTC- Possible REIN Issues?
« Reply #133 on: April 04, 2011, 07:21:22 PM »

Hi, sorry I havn't been on much to answer any questions. Had rather a lot on in life (bit of an understatement  ???)

The reason why 612 KHz is highlighted as the 1st place to look for REIN is that its the next major harmonic over the 300 KHz frequency which is the key foundation channel that DSL works from (when your modem/router syncs) Then DSL works around the avalable frequencys up from there to send chunks of information. It's like listening to lots of radio stations all at the same time then combining all that info to get a bigger picture, which is what your modem is doing.

By next harmonic I mean just the same way as this crops up in sound/music. Remember at school having radio waves demonstrated by a piece of string swung like a skipping rope or a slink slid side to side so you get a wave. Double the frquency of hand movement and you get 2 waves along the same string/slinky. Its the next harmonic. Just as musical notes repeat themselfs but in the next octive up etc. 306khz is the key frequency for dsl, but any domestic mw radio dosn't have its range down that far, so we use 612KHz as the next harmonic.

Strong interfernce in other frequencies can also have strong effects for dsl. Its like trying to have a conversation with someone whilst loud music is blearing on the back round. The 444b is essentialy a normal radio, but it broadcasts a whole spectrum of frequencies all at the same time rather than one norrow band as your radio would do. (you only want to listen to one station at a time on the radio). Yes a directional  Aeral would help. There's one within BT openreach that fits on the 444b and no one knows where it is ! (crazy I know, Ha ! finaly I can say this.) Otherwise there are directional aerials with a spectral anlyser. They cost a huge amount and the only one I ever saw lives down at the labs in Martlesham. Oh would finding REIN be oh so much simpler with that lovely gadget. Between the 444b and a MW radio I usually found the REIN source with a MW radio much more easly. If anyone want to hear the dsl signal, tune your car radio to 612KHz and each time you drive under a dropwire with a dsl signal then you should hear the noise of the signal as you drive under ther wire.

As for your REIN engineer comming back to look for the source later, your lucky. managerswithin BT do not understand you often need to do this with a REIN fault and no allowance is made for this in the system. and He may well be chased up by his control or managers to find out why he's not on his next task. Offcom hasn't made any allowance for REIN faults so BT dosn't have this fully organised. In fact it could be argued that the the whole REIN proccedure is run by BT openreach as a charitable gesture as accounting wise its a money pit that comes off the company profit margins for whats usualy a problem caused by 3rd parties. the Enginneer is the one who'll get it in the neck. Interesting to see how its arranged in the US. The local main equivalent of BT has a BIG van full of kit for this problem.   
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waltergmw

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Re: FTTC- Possible REIN Issues?
« Reply #134 on: April 04, 2011, 07:44:43 PM »

@ Ezzer,

I hope you've not been too poorley as the reason for your understatement.

Thank you VERY much Ezzer for such a good (simplified) description.

Kind regards,
Walter
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