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[bbnovice]

Good day,

Apologies for not replying earlier but the BB has been out for most of the day (the SNR had a lovely regular sine wave pattern at one point – discovered that the SNR was echoing the Call Minder tone!)

I hope the picture I posted was what you wanted – it took ages to do as the batteries went on the camera and I had to go out and get some spares (I’m having a mare today). Sorry but I'm not brave enough to open it up and take a picture - I dread to think what horrors may be in there!

I can’t understand why this problem appears to be getting progressively worse. The BB has been stable for several years before this started to happen and the wiring has not been modified or touched.

I was staggered this afternoon to get call out of the blue from a person who said they were an in house BT engineer based in the UK. He was replying to an email I had sent BT a while ago about these wiring issues. He was very helpful and confirmed  that (a) the exorbitant charges I was quoted if I elect to request installation of an NTE and connection of all the extensions to it is correct (b) installation would be free if  it turns out the fault is in the BT network (c) and most surprising of all that the world of star wiring is indeed murky and that the advice I was given by BT the other day (that the demarcation boundary could be at the infamous junction box) was probably correct.

I have found somebody who would be able to do the wiring – as I said I’m not competent to do it. His suggestion (over the phone so may change his opinion if he actually sees the installation himself) would be to initially totally disconnect 3 of the 4 four extensions temporarily. Then connect a “third party” NTE to the subscriber side of the junction box. Run it like that for a period to see if the BB problem goes away to
determine once and for all if the star wiring is causing the issue or not. If the problem continues, reconnect everything and ask for a BT visit. This would on the face of it appear to be a legitimate approach if what I have been told about the demarcation line being at the junction box is correct.

On a different tangent I assume that Openreach engineers would be aware of what type of wiring would be in the house before arriving and whether a proper Openreach NTE was installed ? I’m assuming that the record keeping of installs by Openreach is sounder than BT’s !

[razpag]

Well, I hold my hands up on my previous comments about your 'ex-BT engineer' ....... that certainly isn't an Openreach/BT junction box at all. I can't determine if there's 2 wires entering it from the left ,or just the one. Don't suppose it matters really, as there could be other wires leaving the junc box that are 'chased into' the plaster, or exited through the wall at the rear of the box etc etc ....

I'm really in a grey area on giving advice, as to how to approach your SP in relation to an SFI visit !! As far as I am aware, disruption of DSL services caused by old-style star-wiring , that was installed to provide up to 4Khz POTS, would be remedied by Openreach especially where the EU has NO licit demarcation point. The bit I am unsure of (as I don't have any involvement in it), is whether the SP or OR pick up the tab, or as mooted, it is forwarded to yourself ?? My own personal belief was that the SP would most likely foot the bill in order to give the EU a 'great customer experience' and hopefully achieve fault-free broadband services with them for a long time to come. As I say though, it's only my take on it.

Regarding your comment about OR being aware of the wiring lay-out pre-visit. Absolutely not I'm afraid. The only records we keep pertain to the date of the install, routings, billing addresses, contacts, H&S issues, etc etc .......


Not much help I'm afraid, but it's really between you and your SP as to how to obtain a solution.

[bbnovice]

Thanks razpag for your useful contributions . At least I have much better background information than I did previously which will help me fight my corner (not sure who with yet though!).

I'm surprised about what you say about OR plant recording. Unless I'm mistaken they have only existed since 2006 so I though they would have had systems in place from day 1 to record all the kit and wiring they have installed in order and tried to avoid the huge "information gap" BT has about its plant pre 2006. Or am I being naive?

   
 

[razpag]

There's no point in recording the info really, as we are only responsible for the wiring up to and including the Master Socket. Otherwise referred to as 'Monopoly Wiring'. All extention wiring is the responsibility of the EU, and to be honest, it's up to them to be aware of what they have and where it is situated. The only 'wiring diagrams' we keep are usually in large installations like factories, and even then it will only be records of where the distribution boxes are fitted, not the circuits spurred off from these boxes.

Can you imagine the data-bases required to record all wiring 'runs' of every house and business premises in the UK ?? Plus, these records would become outdated pretty quickly as wires are added/removed by DIY'ers, swopping to Virgin Media or swopping back and this is just residential properties. Business dwellings can have a high turnover of occupants and their own specific needs and they generally have their own business sytems engineers fitting extentions/data cabling where required.

As I say, we only work up to the Master Socket, unless instructed to do so otherwise, and these sockets are generally very, very close to where the outside wire enters the premises.

[bbnovice]

Sorry, I think I may have expressed myself badly. 

You are right it would be madness to try and record all extension wiring but as you rightly point out OR have responsibility up to and including the NTE. So I would have thought OR would have at least kept full records of the NTE's it has installed since 2006 (and perhaps the wiring back from that point into the network) so that the engineer would have a head start about what he might encounter before he arrived at the premises.


     

[razpag]

I personally can't see the point of 'logging and recording' where each and every NTE5 (nationwide) is installed, when 99% of the time it can be seen instantly, or traced physically within seconds/minutes ?

We have extensive records of the Underground/Overhead plant from the exchanges to the distribution points (ie- Wooden Poles/Hollow Poles,Wall Blocks,Internal blocks,BT66's and so on).

These records have been in existence since the first cable was laid, they even show the position of the underground cable in relation to where it sits inside a Duct compared to other cables. In other words, they are very comprehensive.

[bbnovice]

Just thought I would conclude my contributions to this thread by saying that (hopefully!) the problem appears to be fixed and it was NOT my house wiring to blame. A long story, but I finally managed to force an SFI visit from Openreach out of my ISP.

Result was that my house wiring was given a clean bill of health (!!) but the Openreach engineer did install a proper new NTE5.  He said the symptoms were classic of a HR fault in the network and couldn't understand why my ISP had previously ordred a "lift and shift" - which had failed to achieve a resolution.

However all the tests he did on the line came up clean (although he was suspicious about some very low error rates on some particular tests when he expected  higher error rate to be reported) but he found nothing definite and no HR fault was indicated by the test equipment.  So he was on the point of departure when the fault suddenly re-appeared. He repeated his diagnostics but they again came up totally clean. So he then did it the hard way and changed a number of connections somewhere out in the network/exchange and the fault then disappeared - (so far touch wood!). This took him some time and luckily for me he ignored calls from his boss to move onto the next job!
 
BTW my ISP had also previously tried to "fix" the fault by capping the line at 1Mb. In consequence the SNR went up to 30db and the synch speed down to 1Mb. It was soon after the Openreach engineer had asked them to remove the cap (and the SNR reverted bak to the usual 8-11db level) that the fault re-appeared. Were they trying to "drown out" the fault by dramatically increasing the SNR?

Anyway the final score seems to be Openreach 1 - ISP 0

I suppose the other moral to the story is not to treat diagnostic tests as infallible. 
       



   
     

[burakkucat]

Anyway the final score seems to be Openreach 1 - ISP 0

I suppose the other moral to the story is not to treat diagnostic tests as infallible.

So, if you are now happy, it's a case of "All's well that ends well."

(I would have liked to have seen inside that junction box . . . )

[bbnovice]

As a non expert I'm afraid the inside of the box will forever remain a mystery to me. The engineer confirmed that it was not a BT type junction box and he also thought it might be a wiring block for an alarm system. I had a peek inside when he opened it up and it was veritable rats nest of wires crowded into the box. After a lot of frowning he figured it all out and the box remains in place as he thought it was good enough to reuse. The NTE is wired directly into this junction box. The extensions can now be wired from the NTE as normal practice using the wiring in place (however I agreed with the engineer not to physically connect them at the moment whilst the trouble shooting was in progress due to the very tricky nature of the broadband fault). The wiring for them travels back from the NTE to the mysterious junction box. However they are not screwed into the junction box terminals in the box - its merely used as a cover. Instead the incoming extension wiring is connected directly to the outgoing extension wiring using gel clips (is that the right term?) and just hidden within the junction box. The extension wiring then travels outside of the house, back inside again in the kitchen, and then meanders all over the house as it did before - this is still an unholy mess but I can now get somebody in to sort that issue out at my leisure once I'm sure the broadband fault is resolved.

So a simple and neat solution. There is a clear demarcation point between BT responsibilities and the householder with the installation of a NTE, and the extension wiring runs from the NTE following legitimate practice.

Whilst he was at it, he opened up another BT box which is stationed outside the house where the BT duct emerges from the ground. I don't think this box could have been opened for about 30 years, and the corrosion on the terminal block had to be seen to be believed. So he completely remade new connections inside this box as well.

But despite the visible state of the wiring the fault was not finally resolved until changes were made out in the network/exchange.  So I suppose you could say my broadband was happily surviving on very crappy internal house wiring.            

24 hours and the connection has remained solid at 4mb synch, and 11.8db SNR which I'm very happy with bearing in mind the distance I live from the exchange. So yes I'm a happy bunny (he said tempting fate) !!



    
  


    

[burakkucat]

The wiring for them travels back from the NTE to the mysterious junction box. However they are not screwed into the junction box terminals in the box - its merely used as a cover. Instead the incoming extension wiring is connected directly to the outgoing extension wiring using gel clips (is that the right term?) and just hidden within the junction box. The extension wiring then travels outside of the house, back inside again in the kitchen, and then meanders all over the house as it did before - this is still an unholy mess but I can now get somebody in to sort that issue out at my leisure once I'm sure the broadband fault is resolved.

Ah, that explains it nicely. And yes, from your photo, I thought there were two cables coming in to (the left of) that junction box.

Gel crimps, I believe, is the correct terminology.

24 hours and the connection has remained solid at 4mb synch, and 11.8db SNR which I'm very happy with bearing in mind the distance I live from the exchange.

I shall keep my paws crossed, for you.

[razpag]

bbnovice ..... nice result pal.

burakkucat ..... Gel Crimps 8A and 8B aaaaactually. 

[burakkucat]

burakkucat ..... Gel Crimps 8A and 8B aaaaactually. 

Thank you for helping with my education of all things Openreach, BT and GPO, which started as an amateur over 45 years ago by reading the classic text, Telephony (Atkinson), and, later, every issue of the POEEJ that was available in my University library. 

[razpag]

burakkucat ..... Gel Crimps 8A and 8B aaaaactually. 

Thank you for helping with my education of all things Openreach, BT and GPO, which started as an amateur over 45 years ago by reading the classic text, Telephony (Atkinson), and, later, every issue of the POEEJ that was available in my University library. 

  Hell, with all that reading you could probably teach me a thing or two !!!

How I wish we had the ethics of yesterday applied to the technology and processes of today !! Things would be soooooo much easier for all concerened. Now, where's that thyristor gone for my old 706 series dial phone ??

[burakkucat]

How I wish we had the ethics of yesterday applied to the technology and processes of today !! Things would be soooooo much easier for all concerened.

You sentiment is very appealing and I will second it. 

Now, where's that themistor gone for my old 706 series dial phone ??

I no longer have any 700 series telephones but I do know that I have one (maybe two) thermistors in my grotto . . .

On top of a small bookcase, over by my "reading" armchair, sits a fully refurbished bright red 300 series phone (dated 1956). I only ever use it to answer incoming calls -- I don't want the delicate modern exchange to get confused with the loop-disconnect dialling pulses.   

[razpag]

How I wish we had the ethics of yesterday applied to the technology and processes of today !! Things would be soooooo much easier for all concerened.

You sentiment is very appealing and I will second it. 

Now, where's that thermistor gone for my old 706 series dial phone ??

I no longer have any 700 series telephones but I do know that I have one (maybe two) thermistors in my grotto . . .

On top of a small bookcase, over by my "reading" armchair, sits a fully refurbished bright red 300 series phone (dated 1956). I only ever use it to answer incoming calls -- I don't want the delicate modern exchange to get confused with the loop-disconnect dialling pulses.   

There was me thinking I'd found out Batmans true identity !!!!!