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Author Topic: IP Profile fixed at 500kbps  (Read 18729 times)

mjuk

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Re: IP Profile fixed at 500kbps
« Reply #15 on: January 05, 2011, 06:56:13 PM »

UncleUB - you hit the nail on the head! It seems I get the same story but different explanation everytime I call - well at least I got more of an explanaton this time albeit an incorrect prognosis!

HPsauce & Eric - Thank you! I thought I was going loopy when talking to him as he totally contradicted my logic on it as well but I am just learning all about it so had to take his word for it...  that is the final straw - I keep being nice and giving them more chances.  To be clear is the SNR same as the noise margin?  I was also confused about his point regarding target dbs when I am on fixed not MAX & pointed this out to him as well but again he went on how much noise 31db noise margin was!  
If I change providers, will I turn up as still fixed or will they automatically upgrade to ADSL MAX as is available?
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HPsauce

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Re: IP Profile fixed at 500kbps
« Reply #16 on: January 05, 2011, 07:00:55 PM »

how much noise 31db noise margin was!  
Almost no noise at all, less than 1 part in 1000.
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roseway

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Re: IP Profile fixed at 500kbps
« Reply #17 on: January 05, 2011, 07:13:56 PM »

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To be clear is the SNR same as the noise margin?

Not quite the same, but closely related. SNR is signal-to-noise ratio, i.e the signal level divided by the noise level. Noise margin is the difference between the actual SNR and a standard SNR determined by the router manufacturer. This standard SNR is the level of SNR at which the error rate reaches a certain specified level.

Sorry if this sounds a bit vague, but broadly speaking, the standard SNR is the level at which the router is likely to drop the connection; so if the noise margin drops to 0 dB (so the actual SNR equals the standard SNR), the router will probably re-sync. This varies quite a bit in actual practice.
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  Eric

billy171

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Re: IP Profile fixed at 500kbps
« Reply #18 on: January 05, 2011, 08:26:43 PM »

I'm not specifically a BT broadband fan, although for the past year or so I've posted avidly on the technical help forum on BT Care. ::)

During that time several instances of customers having a fixed rate connection have arisen ... and apart from one time, those connections were shifted successfully over to adslMax ... and some with excellent results. Once those particular connections were reported to the BT moderators on the forum, the relevant escalation process to BTw saw successful results to same. The only one that didn't was a connection in a rural location using a very old aluminium line, and not very condusive to xdsl.
If you can make the connection as good as possible, using a SSFP perhaps, and keeping home impulse noise at bay, DSLAM should try to negotiate the standard 6db noise margin during line training ... and if the line is indeed noise free, should benefit from the maximum line rate that the downstream attenuation permits.
6db margin is the preferred level to achieve maximum rate, which should happen if bitloading is good. Clearly you would have to go to BT for both line and broadband, but I do know that they are proactive in giving you what sounds to be perfectly feasible. It's my opinion that a lot of the fixed line products were just left-overs from days before line adaptive adsl became fully established, and the way BTw set the fault threshold rate for the line and product.
Line IP profiles are strictly for BT line adaptive products on both Max and 21CN, and the IP profile is set at the radius server, according to the line rate you are connected at, and not by any exchange based dslam/msan. Once the line has achieved its connection according to line loop loss and noise margin, which is set for INP, impulse noise protection, the line IP is set at the BRAS, and you get what's left after ATM overhead is catered for.
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mjuk

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Re: IP Profile fixed at 500kbps
« Reply #19 on: January 05, 2011, 11:03:41 PM »

It's all starting to fall into place...you have all been a great help (& patient) in getting my understanding up to speed (even if somewhat still limited)!
I will definitely be getting my MAC code from VM as seems they have absolutely no idea and you have helped to re-confirm this. 

Billy171 - thanks for your feedback on BT... sounds promising that my issue can possibly be rectified with the right ISP.  You have now thrown a spanner in the works as was happy to go for broadband only package but now not so sure.  Seems easier to get help if have both line rental and broadband together?

I am currently considering O2 for this reason as may move my telephone over to them in the next 6 months... I had a phone call from a rather helpful O2 salesperson this evening who seemed to understand or at least listened to my issues and was shocked at the lack of support from VM (she is trying to sell O2 so guess this can be expected) - apparently they have dedicated O2 engineers who would come as first port of call and can diagnose whether BT engineer is required. She seemed  confident that I would be able to get on the ADSL MAX on my line & if there were any issues , an engineer would come out and have 30 days to cancel worse case scenario? 
Guess whoever I go with will be better to what I have now so got nothing to lose!  Going to sleep on it and look into the ISP options tomorrow which UncleUB & Walter sent through as well.

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UncleUB

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Re: IP Profile fixed at 500kbps
« Reply #20 on: January 06, 2011, 07:29:26 AM »

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Billy171 - thanks for your feedback on BT... sounds promising

BT support is Indian based and is awful,that was the reason I left BT BB.

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I am currently considering O2

As you state there is no LLU enabled isp's in your exchange then you would go onto O2 Access which does get very bad press.Its like chalk and cheese compared to O2 LLU(which I am on).

ISP's are like most things in life...........you get what you pay for,just don't jump out of the frying pan and into the fire for the sake of a few £'s a month.
And as most top ISP's have 30 day contract's you are free to move without heavy penalties after that period.

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roseway

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Re: IP Profile fixed at 500kbps
« Reply #21 on: January 06, 2011, 07:38:43 AM »

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As you state there is no LLU enabled isp's in your exchange then you would go onto O2 Access which does get very bad press.

Absolutely! Avoid O2 Access like the plague.
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  Eric

coolsnakeman

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Re: IP Profile fixed at 500kbps
« Reply #22 on: January 06, 2011, 09:10:11 AM »

Hey and welcome to the forum,

There is 1 of 2 things wrong with this. You are on BT ADSL max but capped to half a meg or you are on a fix line rate of half a meg so no profile changing or 10 day training period. If the case may be where you are on a fixed line rate what VM need to do is regrade you to a max circuit which can be done in the space of 24 hours using BTW systems (done it 1000 times for customers). If it is the first problem then VM need to log this over to BTW and request the cap to be lifted this can take a little longer cause it can be a pain to get BTW to do anything for you. Your line stats prove that you are well and truly able to get the full 8 Mb.

Regards
Gary
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kitz

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Re: IP Profile fixed at 500kbps
« Reply #23 on: January 06, 2011, 09:27:15 AM »

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He said the target noise margin is between 6-15db and at 31db this is double which indicates too much noise so my line has been fixed to prevent it going even slower

The obvious has already been pointed out about the 'double'..  aside from the fact that fixed rate lines dont have any target noise margin.
 
Target SRNM is used on RADSL (dsl max and adsl 2+) to set your speed at the time of sync.
Fixed rate lines dont need one.. it either syncs at the capped rate.. or it doesnt.

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he saw a 327db (?) for a milisecond but that didn't register on my stats at my end?!

327dB!!!!!!!!!!!

If hes talking about the SNR..  then surely would be good, not bad. 
If hes talking negative.. then that sort of blip would also knock out a fixed rate line.
A variation of that much would affect radsl and fixed rate.

That aside,  adsl can sustain a few variations before the line is knocked out totally. 
The router would first go through a series of 'Alarm states'.  These would show on your router as errors.. there are various errors and alarm states before the line loses sync
http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/linestats_errors.htm

Im sorry but I dont believe who you were speaking to and it sounds like he was making stuff up as he went along. :(
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kitz

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Re: IP Profile fixed at 500kbps
« Reply #24 on: January 06, 2011, 09:37:21 AM »

It occasionally happens that a bad period can cause an adsl max line to be automatically shifted by the DLM to a capped rate line.  The product is still officially dsl max, but for all intents and purposes it looks like one of the old fixed rate lines.
 
Theres very few lines still on fixed rate as nearly all ISPs have moved over to the BTw product set which has the capped rate.
A decent ISP would be able to identify a line that has been shifted to capped rate 'by mistake' by looking at the current stats and contacting the right dept in BTw to get it moved back.  Weve seen a few ISP reps on this forum do just that for their customers (Zen and Plusnet are ones that spring to mind).
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coolsnakeman

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Re: IP Profile fixed at 500kbps
« Reply #25 on: January 06, 2011, 10:19:10 AM »

(Zen and Plusnet are ones that spring to mind).

BT do it for there customers aswell especially on a line like this one first thing i would of done was check for a cap on the line then lift it or check to make sure it is a DSL max circuit. I could check to see what type of circuit it is but only on the agreement of the person having the issues. It should show me on eco repair.

Regards
Gary
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mjuk

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Re: IP Profile fixed at 500kbps
« Reply #26 on: January 06, 2011, 10:29:49 AM »

OK, thanks for heads up!  Decision made - will avoid O2 until we are LLU enabled & go on 30 day contract until then.  
If I do go with one of the 30 day contract ISPs for broadband only, are they willing to help if I don't pay line rental to them and there ends up being an issue with the BT line?  

Where do VM employ their tech support from!??!   

Gary - herein lies the confusion!  I have been told both on various different calls  that 1) I am on 'ADSL MAX and fixed/capped IP profile' as well as 2)  'no you are not on ADSL MAX but on a fixed rate'  even though I thought all this time that I was paying for ADSL MAX!
I tend to believe the latter as when I look at my availability on samknows etc, it has crosses against Standard ADSL at 1 & 2MB but my line can support up to 5.5meg on ADSL MAX.   As you know, last VM guy, spoke to told me the noise levels had to 'reduce' before they will request upgrade to ADSL MAX... which is the first time implied he could activate something himself - but wouldn't!  Even better, I had to run out and buy new router, new filter and unplug telephone for two days...etc as it was my onus to 'fix' the noise! grrrrrr...this is after I questioned him on his logic but figured he had to know more than me given that is what he does for a living.
Another one went to 2nd line support forever and came back and said BTw wouldn't do anything and it was bad luck but stuck (as did majority of the others except no clarity on what issue actually was as apparently BTw is a secret society (that is my take from what VM said) who don't tell their customers (VM) & ultimately me any detail). 

Kitz - he was definitely talking about SNR as I was trying to get him to explain it to me... but just went on about the target SNR which in my limited knowledge knew this was related to adaptive MAX...and he definitely said 'double' which now you have all pointed out makes no sense.  I would forgive them if it was just one person there but I have spoken to numerous people and all seem to not know what they are on about - guess they can say anything as they probably get paid regardless and majority of people don't bother looking into too much or they are just having a laugh on their customer's/my expense.
Never had any errors that I am aware of.

To another ISP I will go & vote with my feet. Will also lodge a complaint regarding not getting what I signed up for.
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UncleUB

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Re: IP Profile fixed at 500kbps
« Reply #27 on: January 06, 2011, 10:34:42 AM »

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If I do go with one of the 30 day contract ISPs for broadband only, are they willing to help if I don't pay line rental to them and there ends up being an issue with the BT line?  

http://www.aaisp.net.uk/broadband.html

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We'll fix your line even if you are with another ISP!

If you are migrating your service to us, even though you know you have a problem with your line, we'll take on the fault. We'll tackle the problem and get it fixed within one month. If we don't then you can migrate away and owe us nothing for your migration to us and your service charges for that month.

One of the best ISP's,but not the cheapest.
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coolsnakeman

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Re: IP Profile fixed at 500kbps
« Reply #28 on: January 06, 2011, 10:35:08 AM »

Well VM have lost a customer on something that can be done within a day at the most because of there neglect to admit you are capped and shouldn't be or you are not on a DSL max circuit when you should be. Sign up for ADSL2+ with those line stats i would say you would get pretty close to 20Mb out of that line. Good luck with your new provider and also request VM to refund you the money back since you signed up with them as they have mis-sold you a product that includes any activation fees you may have paid.

Regards
Gary
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kitz

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Re: IP Profile fixed at 500kbps
« Reply #29 on: January 06, 2011, 10:44:11 AM »

>>  that 1) I am on 'ADSL MAX and fixed/capped IP profile' a

More likely to be the above.

AFAIK all the major SP's with BTw central pipes + 21CN nodes have moved over to max only for economic reasons.  Its much cheaper for them. Fixed rate is more expensive than capped rate dsl max.
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