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Author Topic: Sync rate locked?  (Read 17507 times)

Wildy

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Sync rate locked?
« on: April 23, 2010, 04:38:47 PM »

Hi all,

While trying to sort what seems to be a REIN issue with my connection, I have come across something else which is puzzling me.  At good times I can have a noise margin of 10-11 db, (I guess from that the target is 12),  and a sync speed of 1088kbps. Then when the noise problems kick in on a night, noise margin plunges down to 2 or 3 db, frequently causing disconnections too, but after these it still always resyncs at 1088 kbps.

Today I've managed to get my old netgear router running on my sky connection, and after installing the DGTeam firmware, used the option to change the noise  margin, but the margin just drops to 0 for a second then comes right back up to 11db, sync speed 1088kbps.

I may be wrong (and frequently am) but it seems to me that I'm somehow locked at this value of 1088 kbps no matter what I do. Feels like I'm getting the worst of both sides since when there's noise I disconnect regardless of the high snrm target, and when there isn't I'm stuck at 1088 with a big, unnecessary margin.

Anyone out there have any suggestions I can try to improve this?

Cheers
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jeffbb

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Re: Sync rate locked?
« Reply #1 on: April 23, 2010, 05:32:16 PM »

Hi

could you post your your line/router  stats to give us a complete picture of your connection.

It may also be useful to try routerstats  , this is a useful trouble shooting tool.

Regards Jeff
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Wildy

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Re: Sync rate locked?
« Reply #2 on: April 23, 2010, 05:56:53 PM »

ADSL Link     Downstream     Upstream
Connection Speed    1088 kbps    416 kbps
Line Attenuation    55.0 db    31.5 db
Noise Margin    10.1 db    23.0 db

Stats above were taken while plugged in to the test socket (at a time of no apparent noise issues). Now I'm not stuck with the tamper-proof Sky box, is there anything else useful I could post up?  Have got routerstats running ok now.
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sevenlayermuddle

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Re: Sync rate locked?
« Reply #3 on: April 23, 2010, 07:55:41 PM »


I may be wrong (and frequently am) but it seems to me that I'm somehow locked at this value of 1088 kbps no matter what I do.

It would be theoretically possible (though rare) for BT to cap your connection speed at the DSLAM in the exchange, so that the router never synced above a certain figure, regardless of the target SNR.   But I cannot imagine  (* see below) any mechanism whereby BT could force your router to connect at a faster speed than it wanted to, so I (like yourself) would expect to see a drop in connection speed when the router reconnects after the SNRM decays to nearly nothing-ish.

Best approach is probably to treat it like any other interference issue, and disregard that apparent anomaly for now....

My only comment on the stats you've posted are that you should probably be doing better. If I were you, I'd follow Jeff's advice to get routerstats up & running.

7LM

EDIT: ***  UNLESS, of course, you're on  fixed rate service.  I wonder if a fixed rate profile of 1088 exists?
« Last Edit: April 23, 2010, 08:10:02 PM by sevenlayermuddle »
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waltergmw

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Re: Sync rate locked?
« Reply #4 on: April 23, 2010, 08:18:37 PM »

@ 7LM,

The Tiscali 1 Meg Rate Cap is 1152 kbps if that's any help.

Kind regards,
Walter

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jeffbb

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Re: Sync rate locked?
« Reply #5 on: April 23, 2010, 09:04:02 PM »

Hi
@wildy   with your attenuation you should be Synching at about 3680 if you are on ADSL1  8max.
If your target SNR margin is 12db then this could be costing you up to 2400 Kbps
What package are you on ?
What is your ISP?

Can you monitor you SNR margin with RSfor a period including the drop and resynch  and post the results .
I don't think you are on a 1 meg package as your US synch is 416 Kbps which looks ok for your upstream attenuation for a 8max connection (448 Kbps) .

Regards Jeff
edit  oops missed the reference to sky  :-[


« Last Edit: April 24, 2010, 06:14:10 PM by jeffbb »
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kitz

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Re: Sync rate locked?
« Reply #6 on: April 24, 2010, 02:02:58 PM »

I notice you said Sky -  who have their own profiles.
Im not sure if they have a 1Mb fixed rate but their 2Mb fixed is certainly different to other ISPs at a measly 2048.
416 upstream is one of their profiles.

Sky have their own DLM, and like BTw it is possible that they may have fixed rate downstream 0.5Mb, 1Mb + 2Mb profiles that can be used in order to stabilise a line.

If it never ever does change from 1088 then this could be the case.  Try grabbing a copy of routerstats to record your line stats over a period of time.
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coolsnakeman

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Re: Sync rate locked?
« Reply #7 on: April 24, 2010, 03:12:37 PM »

Sky broadband base package = 2Mbps downstream 416Kbps upstream. Sky broadband everyday package = 10Mbps downstream 416Kbps upstream. Sky broadband unlimited package = 20Mbps downstream 1Mbps upstream. Sky do have there own DLM process which if your connection has been dropping out during that 10 days your sync speed has adjusted itself to the speed you are getting now turning it into a fixed rate!. What you need to do is get in touch with sky while your in the test port. If you are having REIN issues and you know REIN is around there but do not know what it is causing the REIN fault then sky can process this to BTW however you will have to have an SFI come out first who will then pass to a REIN engineer if he feels REIN is the case causing the drop in SNRM. Make sure everything else has also been eliminated ie router, filters, RJ11 etc. Anything you think could be causing a REIN issue eliminate it by switching it off and monitoring.

Regards
Gary
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Wildy

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Re: Sync rate locked?
« Reply #8 on: April 25, 2010, 12:51:36 AM »

Thanks for all responses so far, Have set up Routerstats for the last couple of days, but haven't had any problems yet.

To fully answer Jeff's question, I'm on sky's medium package (up to 8 meg, some download limit I don't think we've ever come near to hitting)

Looking through some old files I found this, taken from RS lite if it's any help.

Cheers
Wildy

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Wildy

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Re: Sync rate locked?
« Reply #9 on: April 26, 2010, 11:02:42 PM »

Well, having had routerstats running every night since starting this thread I've not seen any sign of the noise and disconnections I was originally complaining about, maybe the Sky router was to blame?

However I seem to be finding more questions the more I look into this.  Looking at the router now shows       

                        Down      Up
SNR (dB):           10.9             24.0
Attn(dB):           55.0             31.5
Pwr(dBm):   17.3             12.3
Max(Kbps):   1568          1056
Rate (Kbps):   1088      416

The max down rate earlier tonight was over 2k, til I tried to restart the router and see if it would resync higher, at which point it came back up with the above figures and continues syncing at 1088k.  How is this max rate calculated?  Could it's increase be a result of the fairly steady connection of the last week or so?

Also a quick ask around of a few neighbours suggests the entire street is getting no more than 1 meg. I'm pretty certain the distance suggested by the router attenuation is right (a smidge under 4km) so is there something that could artificially limit a whole area like this?  (These houses were newly built about 4 years ago and as far as I can tell have always had poor speeds).

Thanks yet again,
Wildy
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sevenlayermuddle

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Re: Sync rate locked?
« Reply #10 on: April 27, 2010, 12:31:27 AM »

AFAIK, the 'max' reported by Netgears isn't documented anywhere, but it seems to be  just an extrapolation of the actual speed and the actual SNRM, to indicate what could be achieved if the router reconnected with nothing (high target margins, or caps), to impede it.

I may be wrong, but it seems to me like you have two problems, which have to be tackled in sequence...

1):  You have some kind of interference on your line, that renders it incapable of achieving the rates it ought to be capable of.

2):  Because of (1), you have been placed on a fixed rate of 1088 (download).  After resolving (1), this may resolve itself, otherwise, complain to Sky, but until (1) is fixed there's no point in complaining.

One way to tackle (1) is with Routerstats.   If RS doesn't shed any light (and sometimes it doesn't) there are other things that can be tried,, but it's best to start with RS.  regardless of whether you had any actual problems whilst sampling,  RS may also indicate whether you had any 'near-misses, which can yield valuable clues.

That said,  have you actually optimised your wiring yet?  I also have attn of 55dB, and used to get about 1 to 1.5 mbps.    After disconnecting the ring wire, and a few other minor mods, that increased to 4 to 5 mbps.


It's interesting, mind, that  the entire street is suffering similar problems.  I lived in a new build estate myself some years ago (pre-adsl, late 90's), where the service wiring installed by the builders was so bad that bedside clocks ran fast and washing machines stopped working sometimes, caused by arcing in the street-light wiring.  Any chance it could be related to the on-time of street-lights? There are many things builders can screw up until they're adopted by the Councils.

- 7LM
« Last Edit: April 27, 2010, 12:37:43 AM by sevenlayermuddle »
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Wildy

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Re: Sync rate locked?
« Reply #11 on: April 27, 2010, 11:14:26 AM »

Thanks 7LM,

First off the wiring is through a filtered faceplate, so should be no problem, I have also had filters on everthing anyway (one of sky tech supports ideas) and, I believe, also had the same problems when going straight through the test socket behind the faceplate.



1):  You have some kind of interference on your line, that renders it incapable of achieving the rates it ought to be capable of.

2):  Because of (1), you have been placed on a fixed rate of 1088 (download).  After resolving (1), this may resolve itself, otherwise, complain to Sky, but until (1) is fixed there's no point in complaining.

I'm starting to talk myself out of this now. Since I swapped out the Sky router, the noise margin graph on Routerstats has been rock steady, I'm starting to suspect Sky's router may have been the cause. That said, we never had problems every night so I suppose it could be that whatever was causing intereference just hasn't been used for a bit. I guess there's no choice but to wait and see on this front.

Sorry, I know you're probably all sick of me by now, but I'd really like to find out what's going on here :)
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sevenlayermuddle

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Re: Sync rate locked?
« Reply #12 on: April 27, 2010, 11:42:17 AM »

Even if your margin has stabilised at 11-ish dB, a speed of 1088 with that margin isn't exactly stunning for a 55dB attenuation, especially with your filtered faceplate.  No two lines are alike and yours may just be unlucky ine,  but with similar attn to yours, mine would usually connect at something  well in excess 2500 with a 12dB margin.

If there is a problem, and if it has become a reasonable stable and persistent problem, it may at least be easier to track down.  Have you tried waving an AM radio around too see if it picks up anything and, if so, whether you can use it to trace the source?

If you do use the AM radio, just be aware that much interference is essentially mains-borne, and holding the radio close to any mains wiring can make it louder, which can be misleading.   I recently adopted a tactic of tuning in the radio, leaving it on one place, and then switching off each circuit in turn at the consumer unit until it stopped.  It turned out I've an  electrically noisy SMPU in the ceiling that powers some halogen lights in the kitchen, and it's costing me a couple of dB margin.  A couple of dB wasn't enough incentive to tear down a ceiling to fix it, but at least that particular mystery was solved.

BTW rechecking my own contribution from (late!) last night, I didn't mean to contradict coolsnakesman, it may well be a good idea to ask Sky for help.  I only meant that there may be no point complaining about the fixed-rate until the problem's resolved.

- 7LM

edit: changed 'most interference' to 'much interference', as it probably often isn't.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2010, 11:52:51 AM by sevenlayermuddle »
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coolsnakeman

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Re: Sync rate locked?
« Reply #13 on: April 28, 2010, 01:48:04 PM »

Every little helps thats the way i see it so no offense has been taken:). Sky could very well re-configure the line for you and increase the speed but if there is a problem there with interference then that configuration will be short lived. Maybe the AM radio would be a good idea but at the same time you could get an SFI sent out to identify REIN and then you will be tasked a REIN engineer to do the job for you if you want to go the lazy way around it lol. I guess if it was me i would go into the test port then contact sky after a couple of days to advise what is happening and let them do the leg work after all that is what they are there for. You mentioned you changed the router did you flash your originally router from sky to get the username and password cause if you did don't mention this at all as you won't be helped due to be in breach of T&C so keep that hush hush if your talking to there tech support. Good luck with this i am sure you will come to a conclusion soon enough but remember these type of issues are by far the worse and also the longest to take to resolve.

Regards
Gary
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Wildy

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Re: Sync rate locked?
« Reply #14 on: April 28, 2010, 03:10:14 PM »

Thanks both, dug out an old portable radio last night but didn't get round to a full check of the neighbourhood (presumably this interference could be anywhere between my house and the exchange?) 

Mostly I just got radio 4   :D

@Gary I didn't "flash" the old router in the sense of messing with the firmware, I think it was a html thing off Sky User website that pulled out the details. Regardless, I'll keep quiet about that since, as you say, Sky don't like it.

Will try to have a walkabout and post my findings (if any) in a couple of days.

Cheers
Wildy
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