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[HPsauce]

This post was prompted by some postings in the Be customer forums.
It covers POTS and ADSL so do move to a more suitable section if appropriate.

So, the basic question is in the title. Why do we seem to have the situation that taking LLU phone service forces you to take LLU broadband from the same supplier?
Is this a technical, commercial, historic or what limitation? It seems to be anti-competitive to me.

I'm sort of aware of the basic difference between MPF and SMPF, but why does LLU POTS have to be implemented as MPF, especially as most customers will not understand the significance of this and it just happens without them knowing and then restricts their choices.

Basically, I would expect for example to be able to switch my phone service to TalkTalk but keep my broadband with Be as both operate their LLU kit on my exchange. But this does not seem to be possible.

Thoughts anyone?

[waltergmw]

Hi HP,

I'll start the ball rolling.

IT depends upon the flavour that your ISP / CP decide they want to go for.
TalkTalk have unbundled the lot so the E-side is effectively connected only to the CPW electronics.

However that's about to change for the Broadband LLUers as well as the BT Wolesalers as shortly you will be able to buy an Internet and phone package direct from your ISP so you only have one bill to pay.

If you have a FTTC solution such as Rutland's they have full metallic path sub-loop unbundling including a VOIP telephone service as well. I believe their solution includes diagnostics facilities they can access remotely which again should reduce the BT Openreach fault negotiations.

Given the difficulties we sometimes see here, there could well be a significant advantage in having a single broadband and phone supplier as there is one point of contact for you and then one for the CP who will be conversing with BT O upon your behalf.

I think there will be interesting times ahead !

Kind regards,
Walter

[HPsauce]

Thanks Walter.
I think my main concern at present is that the customer just doesn't know that signing up with a specific phone supplier effectively locks them to that company for broadband too. This is something that in other businesses would not be allowed and I can see no particular technical reason for it.

After all, at present I'm happily connected to BT Retail's POTS and Be's ADSL, all down Openreach's single phone line.

[coolsnakeman]

Yeah i see your point however with sky you need to have there tv before they offer you BB or POTS or a CPS service but they allow you to have there POTS and another ADSL SP on there POTS think they are more concerned about there tv product though.

Regards
Gary

[waltergmw]

@ HP,

I agree that the marketeers could make things a lot clearer if they had a will to do so.

In the harsh commercial world the technical reasons are subservient to the business ones, unless you chose, and are able, to buy a Virgin Media Service with a coax broadband and a twisted pair phone line and kept your BT O line as well. You could then select whichever method you want, but at a significant cost penalty.

However I suspect that many busy non-geek people do not wish to know how their services are connected.
Sadly also they do not wish to measure the competancy of their chosen provider to supply the services they have paid for and, more importantly, how their provider reacts to both permanent and intermittent faults including the interaction with BT Openreach. The latter organisation has been forced into a code of practice which many find quite unacceptable, but are unable to influence the situation.
(BT O's practice of fixing or abandoning a fault in a 90 minute service period makes the eventual repair much more complicated especially when the returning engineers frequently do not know what has been done before. This approach does not encourage proper care of the network either. I believe engineers are chastised for "under performance" so there is little reason to expend energy on always following the best engineering practices.)
 
The marketeers play on the failings of human nature which is why they use weasel words selecting the criteria they wish to advertise such as cost and "up to" speeds etc. etc.

A recurring theme here are the difficulties some people find themselves in when their services have gone wrong.
In these circumstances the end users have to became involved sometimes just to get their ISPs and BT O to co-operate.
An alternative aproach by some ISPs when it is only a performance issue, is to make the end-users conversation process so diffcult that they just give up.

Kind regards,
Walter

[saabw]

I have been with TT for my phone and line rental for nearly 6 six years now and had BT, Plusnet, Newnet and Be as the BB providers until now coz as of tomorrow I will be with TT for broadband.

In the time with TT for landline they had never once has their telesales been in touch to offer BB, in fact I contacted them.

[kitz]

I havent read the full discussion...  but I should imagine its down to the way the MSANs deal with the 2 'technologies'.

On SMF LLU, your voice data actually passes through the LLU's MSAN and is then passed on back to the BT standard phone system.

Although I suppose technically not impossible, I should image things could become one hell of a nightmare (and cable hell @ the exchanges) if it could then be passed on to another MSAN.


Because its at the MSAN where the 2 technologies are split, I'm pretty sure that no LLU supplier would like to (pay for and...) then forward the voice data on to a competitors MSAN.  Its one thing passing back voice data into the BT loop... but to another LLU provider.

It is currently possible for LLU broadband to be either passed on to the same suppliers phone services OR the BT WLR system.
Some ISPs will use the WLR services offered by BT to supply phone services to their customers.


To get a better idea of what Im talking about..  have a read of the section on the LLU handover frames
http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/telephone_exchange.htm

[HPsauce]

OK, so to summarise VERY briefly, are you saying that "combined" LLU providers (such at TT) use equipment (in the MSAN?) that effectively directly terminates the incoming line and incorporates the equivalent of "reverse filtering" in the electronics, thus simplifying physical conections and wiring by separating and routing the POTS and ADSL signals within a single electronic module that then interfaces to the appropriate backhaul services?

If so I can see why they would want to do this to save costs. And why providing an external POTS feed  to another supplier would be difficult, expensive or actually impossible.  8)

[kitz]

Yep...  the 'reverse splitters' are actually on the line cards in the (LLU)  MSAN.

SMPF LLU providers will separate at the MSAN...  then pass the voice data back to BT.

[kitz]

AFAIK one of the major differences between an MSAN + DLSAM is the MSAN is MultiService Access Node...  and unlike a DSLAM takes in all data..  then separates it to the relevant whatever (is capable of just more than voice and adsl such as TV etc)

[HPsauce]

Now I'm pretty sure I understand that, and what the implications are.
BUT none of the LLU providers explain it in any shape or form.  

And poor old Joe Public doesn't have a chance.    

[kitz]

As mentioned WLR had been available for several years for both BTw + LLU suppliers.

IIRC Plusnet was one of the 1st BTw suppliers to use WLR to put together broadband and phone packages for their customers, what must be about 4yrs or so ago?  There are several other BTw ISPs that use WLR such as IDnet, Newnet.

Sky used LLU SMPF with WLR, which meant they were also able to let you have telephony services via another CP.

I think the misconception is that the voice and dsl data is split before going to the MSAN, but the reality is that all data traverses to the MSAN and the SMPF providers then  pass the filtered voice back into the BT system...  where its WLR or BT.
People seem to naturally think phone THEN adsl, but LLU routing wise in the exchange its DSL equip then voice equip.

When looking at MSANs in the exchange you should immediately be able to tell which is FMPF & SMPF by looking at the inspan handover frame and the colours of the modules.

SMPF have additional LLUL modules which is for the filtered voice data going back to BT.  (check out the pics on the page I linked to above)

Co-mingling is actually possible, which I believe sky are now doing by offering some lines fully unbundled and some not from the same MSAN.

So its possible to have LLU dsl..  and then different (WLR) phone supplier.   
But the difficulty comes if the phone supplier is FMPF only in your exchange as that would require it going say through one ISP MSAN/DSLAM and then on to another CP's MSAN.