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[jid]

Hi all,

Me and my Dad have been chatting today about the broadband and Tiscali.

Talk Talk have now released a new package which was originally for Tiscali customers, but is now available to all - Talk Talk Pro.

    * Upto 24Mb Broadband
    * Upto 1Mb Upload
    * Unlimted downloads (fair usage policy)
    * Free "N" router (New customers only, existing customer can purchase the router for £30)
    * Dedicated forum area
    * Tuneup Kit (iPlate)
    * Unlimted UK anytime calls
    * Inclusive 0870/0845 calls
    * Cheaper calls to mobiles (6.85ppm + connection fee)

Tariff + Line Rental = £26.24
Connection Fee = £29.99

Thats the deal they have and I think its very very good. I won't make use of the iPlate (no NTE5) of the free N router (as I have one!) but need someones advice on ADSL2+ and my line.

I have attached a DMT graph which is the noisiest time for my line.
Can any of the gurus possibly predict how my line may cope on ADSL2+ - I know TalkTalk use dlm an all but would like some idea in its stability?

Thanks

Jamie

[attachment deleted by admin]

[HPsauce]

I don't know how the Tiscali DLM works, but with your attenuation you could get double the speed (around 15mbps) with ADSL2+ plus 3*faster uploads of course.

[jid]

I don't know how the Tiscali DLM works, but with your attenuation you could get double the speed (around 15mbps) with ADSL2+ plus 3*faster uploads of course.

Yes upto 1meg upload is tempting.

Tiscali DLM is non existent - i've never seen it in action.

My line is forced to sync with a 9dB SNR target (tiscali cap at 12dB) as at 6dB it struggles with the pressure...

[kitz]

In theory you should see much higher speeds.   However iirc your line does seem to have a problem with some of the frequencies at or around tone 200.. so this may have some impact on your maximum attainable speed.
Theres not really that much spare SNRM and your line tx power is already running at 19.8dBm..  which would seem to indicate its already running near its maximum capability.

However, your line is better now than it was about a year ago.. so no harm in giving it a go.  I cant recall off the top of my head if its Talktalk that will reduce the cost of adsl2+ a bit if you cant get the higher speeds above 8Mb? The minimum 1 bit per tone of adsl2+ may actually work quite well on your line, giving you a wee bit more.

The line should be able to cope with the faster uploads which would be nice..  once you get them believe me its hard to go back.
The TT DLM shouldnt cause any major probs... and at least if it goes petetong..  TT have decentish support via their own forums now... and IMHO better than Tiscali.

I know cost is a major consideration for you and therefore price for both line and adsl and inclusive calls seems pretty good.
No guarantees.. but in your circumstances.. worth a shot even if it only gives you a bit more downstream.. and at least you'll get more upstream.

[jid]

Thanks for that Kitz.

Tbh, we just want the inclusive 0870/0845 numbers and extra download/upload capability.

Dad doesn't mind paying more if its for a good package. Support is good as you say and the company is more stable than Tiscali

Only concern is would I loose speed due to the noise problems on the line?
That snappy shows uptime stats within 15days (I am behaving now and leaving alone!) which is the best this line has been in a long long time... The gap at Tone 204-205 is smaller now too

We are going to have a look into it tomorrow morning now and maybe ring up Talk Talk to see if there are any mirgration costs however I believe Fully Unbundled to Fully Unbundled LLU is not a problem - many Tiscali customers have done it without problems.

Will let you know...

[kitz]

I dont envisage things being any worse than they are now.   It may help a bit since I know Tiscali faffed around with your DLM a fair bit.. so now the line is better it may help to start anew so to speak. 

Your problems seem to be related to your physical line - because youve already done all the checks you can internally, then its probably in-between the home and exchange.
In the past there's several of us that have strongly suspected in may be somewhere in the local loop.   If so changing ISPs shouldnt make any difference.
I know tiscali werent willing to play ball with you and get an engineer out.. instead preferring to play with profiles for months on end getting no-where.

I cant say for sure obviously..   but you may have a bit more luck with TT if you get one of their UK forum guys.   Strictly speaking that line should perform much better than it is doing. 

[jid]

Do know what Kitz, you just reminded me of that 

I do read through Talk Talks forums and they do most certainly seem to get things done quicker than Tiscali.

As others on here have said, there is most likely REIN on the line somewhere between me and the exchange...

As long as my Download speeds stay the same or increase I would be happy. Dad likes the idea of 0845/0870 calls being inclusive and I like the idea of a 1meg upload  , which I believe my line should be able to handle?

As of this morning the snr is 9.5dB as the noise of the evening has passed, put there are still dips in the tones in places (which may be how the router handles things I don't know)

Me and Dad will have a chat later and maybe ring them to see what the procedure is for migrating...

Will let you know 

[kitz]

Yes - from the dmt graph your line looks good for the additional upstream speeds.  Its much harder to work out how much is spare on the upstream due to many of the upstream frequencies being shaped by PSD masks.. which means that some tones will never load more than x bits even if there is spare SNR at that particular tone.  But it appears to look good

The good thing is that these tones are independent of anything going on on the downstream and therefore whats going on at around tone 200 doesnt appear to have any impact elsewhere. 

Once you have the higher upstream its hard to go back down... particularly if you do stuff say via ftp like uploading your webpages etc you notice the difference.
I thought that when I got Annex_M, that I may from time to time swap back to Annex_A to get the downstream back.. but apart from testing I never have done... because that upstream is so useful for me.
This wont apply to you though on TT and you will get the upstream as long as the line is good enough.  Its also rate adaptive and may slightly vary from time to time depending on your spare SNRM.



Once upon a time I would never ever have recommended TT as they were actually worse than Tiscali.  However they do appear to have cleaned up their act a wee bit over the past year - the biggest improvement being the TT forum which is run by UK based staff which is what I believe has made a difference.
 
Obviously there is stuff thats not right and as you are aware that there are many better ISPs..  but because of the budget aspect and the limitations of £ as long as you go in with your eyes open and know what to expect then I can see why its very tempting.

I do have to say that I personally wouldnt choose them, and to make sure that you have checked out the other LLU options that may be available to you such as o2 or even sky to see how these compare on cost too.  But Im sure you have done your homework, the package does look value for all that it includes.  Apart from the slamming aspect most people that use their phone service dont seem to notice any difference to BT once on it..  and its just the adsl side where most complaint seem to come from.   They shape and they do on occasion suffer from contention..  but it doesnt appear to be any worse than tiscali.   
Take all the above points in mind and be aware of your expectations and dont set them too high and that way you should be fine.

Good luck jamie

[jid]

As I said, as long as we have a good service which is a little quicker I would be pleased.

We haven't been on BT for over a year now and haven't noticed any difference.

Dad has sent an email to query them on the package but may ring if they don't reply.

As for cost, I am aware that no cheap ISP has the great support and amazing 1:1 contention without paying that little bit more but I know I would get better support from Talk Talk than I did from Tiscali and could get my line profile changed on Talk Talk forums if need be