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[orainsear]

From what you are describing it would appear that you IP profile is being adjusted, and not necessarily based on the standard BT DLM practices.

Just to clarify, does your LiveBox remain fully synchronised at all times?

Does the profile as detailed on the BT Speedtester site change to the same limits at the same time each day?

Does the BT Speedtester throughput correlate with other speedtest sites?

3 things spring to mind - Orange are somehow monkeying about with things; there's a problem with the BT Speedtester site/profiles; this is some sort of new congestion control mechanism by BT.

[sevenlayermuddle]

The speed test includes assured rate.  I wonder, could this be anything to do with IP stream Advanced Services, see documents at

http://www.btwholesale.com/pages/static/Community/Broadband_Community/IPstream_Documentation/BT_IPstream_Advanced_Services_Launch.html

in particular, see 'end user speed control' in...
http://www.btwholesale.com/pages/downloads/broadband_community/BTIPstream_AdvancedServices_Factsheet.pdf

7LM

[orainsear]

The speed test includes assured rate.  I wonder, could this be anything to do with IP stream Advanced Services, see documents at

http://www.btwholesale.com/pages/static/Community/Broadband_Community/IPstream_Documentation/BT_IPstream_Advanced_Services_Launch.html

in particular, see 'end user speed control' in...
http://www.btwholesale.com/pages/downloads/broadband_community/BTIPstream_AdvancedServices_Factsheet.pdf

7LM

Section 2.5 of SIN 450 makes interesting reading.... (in fact the whole document looks very relevant).

[faqinel]

Just to clarify, does your LiveBox remain fully synchronised at all times?

Yes.

Does the profile as detailed on the BT Speedtester site change to the same limits at the same time each day?

Yes

Does the BT Speedtester throughput correlate with other speedtest sites?

When the IP profile is at 500 kbps then the download speed correlates with other sites and never exceeds 500 kbps.  When the profile is 2000 kbps  I don't always see that correlation; the BBMax site will often show download speeds of 3500 kbps.  This may be a problem with the site, if for instance it does not take into account Internet Explorer pre-caching the test file.

[faqinel]

The speed test includes assured rate.  I wonder, could this be anything to do with IP stream Advanced Services, see documents at

http://www.btwholesale.com/pages/static/Community/Broadband_Community/IPstream_Documentation/BT_IPstream_Advanced_Services_Launch.html

in particular, see 'end user speed control' in...
http://www.btwholesale.com/pages/downloads/broadband_community/BTIPstream_AdvancedServices_Factsheet.pdf

7LM

Think you've nailed it there.  Well spotted.  Beats my paranoid theories of rogue Liveboxes 

[sevenlayermuddle]

Think you've nailed it there.  Well spotted.  Beats my paranoid theories of rogue Liveboxes 

Let's wait and see what others have to say before jumping to any conclusions as it's possible I'm barking up the wrong tree (wouldn't be the first time  ).

But SIN 450, as per Orainseer's link, also seems to suggest that ISPs may be able to influence BRAS parameters in a way that I (but maybe that's just me) didn't reallise was possible.

[orainsear]

As pointed out earlier other users have previously received a warning letter and experienced similar service fluctuations.

It certainly does appear that the Speed Control/Qos system is being used to cap your throughput via adjustments to the BT IP profile system, and the max speed varies depending on the time of day.

[kitz]

That line certainly does have a problem with the IPprofile!
It seems to continually be shufting between 500 & 2000. In the 3rd image it looks like there has just been an increase to 2000, but the orange profile hadnt actually caught up at that particular time and was still limiting you to 500.

Your routerstats report appears to show a nice steady and continual sync with no fluctuations.


Re the assured rate stuff - I havent yet read SIN 450..  but its my understanding that om WMBC the ISP can specifically request from BT that a certain amount of bandwidth is specifically prioritised for certain types of traffic.   BTr in particular use this service for customers who have BT Vision to ensure a better quality stream for the designated service.  As well as on WMBC..  BTr have been offering this for a while on their 20CN Central Plus accounts.

The EU actually has 2 IP profiles with the maximum attainable speed being the sum of the 2 profiles.  AIUI if the 'assured rate' profile isnt being used by the QoS service, then this is supposed to be then added on top of the best effort rate. 
So if say the EU want using whatever the ISP designates as the preferred rate traffic such as TV or VOIP..  and if the exchange/backhaul wasnt busy then this would also be added on to the best effort profile for say normal http useage.

>> Attenuation (dB) : 12.0

Hmmm.. wondering.. from your attenuation you are quite close to the exchange.  I have in the past seen cases where the IPprofile doesnt seem to trigger properly on a short line.  I have no proof of this.. but I strongly suspect it may be something to do with "too much surplus SNR" and the default IPprofile (which is 2000).  I also suspect this is why some very good lines seem to get the stuck bRAS problem.  My own line being one of them.

I had a heck of a problem myself about 18 months ago with the DLM recording sync speeds that didnt actually occur.  Luckily at the time I was logging my line stats with MRTG so I could actually show my ISP that what the DLM claimed my sync speed was..  wasnt actually one that I had sync'd at.

My ISP believed me, but they then had a problem convincing BTw that I was syncing at higher speeds.   There seems to be 2 places where the sync speed is recorded on the DLM and one wasnt seeming to be updated as it should.  This would happen after each time I had a line change rate.. or a few times after such events as a powercut.

Eventually my ISP got BTw to reset my profile..  but because this was becoming such a PITA and kept happening it was one of the reasons why I actually went over to LLU.
It may or may not be relevant that the speeds I got stuck at were 500, 2000 and then later on 6500

http://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php?topic=1637.msg55880#msg55880


You can see where the router, btw speedtest and woosh test were reporting 8128... yet the DLM still believed I was sync'd at 7392 (which was a false report) here.

It took 14 days to clear.. and that was with my isp continually rejecting clears.  I think it took a full retrain rather than a reset.
May be worth while asking if your ISP can get BTw to do a full retrain rather than a reset.

[coolsnakeman]

Sorry can i just say i am very shocked that your ISP didn't underline the FUP at point of sale or even mention on your T&C is this not one of ofcoms policies??? In regards to the IP profile it is automated and the only way for a new set of results to be taken would be to reset the profile which orange would have had to request BT to do which sends it back to a 10 day training period. Getting out of the contract is the right thing to do its time to move on but when ordering your next ISP make sure they tell you what your monthly usage cap is over the phone. I am with BT and my usage cap is unlimited which i found on the website when ordering the BB. I was with sky BB before and that was also unlimited. Some ISP's over a 40Gb a month usage cap but will traffic manage you if you exceed more than 1.4Gb after 5pm for example sky BB's connect package is like that. But good luck with your selection and i hope you find one suited for ya. 

[sevenlayermuddle]

Re the assured rate stuff - I havent yet read SIN 450..  but its my understanding that om WMBC the ISP can specifically request from BT that a certain amount of bandwidth is specifically prioritised for certain types of traffic.   BTr in particular use this service for customers who have BT Vision to ensure a better quality stream for the designated service.  As well as on WMBC..  BTr have been offering this for a while on their 20CN Central Plus accounts.

Kitz, I think that assured rate refers to QOS, which is one aspect of SIN 450.  The other aspect of SIN 450 is EUSC (End User Speed Control), which seems to allow ISPs to set throttles, either for revenue purposes (pay more to get more), or for FUP enforcement.  Moreover, as specifically referenced by Orainsear (sec 2.5), it suggest that EUSC is accomplished by throttling 'at the BRAS within BTs network'.

That's what led me to suspect it may be the reason for the odd behaviour of faqinel's IP Profiles, even though it runs contrary to my previous understanding of BRAS and IP profile settings.

[faqinel]

Sorry can i just say i am very shocked that your ISP didn't underline the FUP at point of sale or even mention on your T&C is this not one of ofcoms policies??? In regards to the IP profile it is automated and the only way for a new set of results to be taken would be to reset the profile which orange would have had to request BT to do which sends it back to a 10 day training period. Getting out of the contract is the right thing to do its time to move on but when ordering your next ISP make sure they tell you what your monthly usage cap is over the phone. I am with BT and my usage cap is unlimited which i found on the website when ordering the BB. I was with sky BB before and that was also unlimited. Some ISP's over a 40Gb a month usage cap but will traffic manage you if you exceed more than 1.4Gb after 5pm for example sky BB's connect package is like that. But good luck with your selection and i hope you find one suited for ya. 

Here's Orange's FUP http://www.orange.co.uk/terms/7094.htm, which basically states that they have a Fair Usage Policy without giving any detail.  Hmmm...an FUP that says they have an FUP .  As for arbitary capping should you overstep their secret usage limits, well I've yet to find mention of it on their site.  Their repeated claim, right up to my final rant with tier 2 customer support, was to say that I was experiencing contention.  I think you'll find BT are no different.  Their site clearly states that they will throttle the speed of heavy users, but at least they are up front.

[orainsear]

There appears to be some sort of confirmation in this Orange Problems thread that EUSC is used, and it's suggested that you will be capped if you download an average of more than 50 GB over two months.

[sevenlayermuddle]

There appears to be some sort of confirmation in this Orange Problems thread that EUSC is used, and it's suggested that you will be capped if you download an average of more than 50 GB over two months.

Good find, the puzzle is coming together nicely.   Putting a small word in for Orange, a 50GB cap seems generous compared to some, and a 500k daytime is probably not as bad as it might be either.  What is bad is that they haven't advertised it properly, or explained it properly.

One more question for Faqinel...  The IP Profile seems to swap between 500 (day) and 2000 (night).  Yet you mentioned earlier that when it was 2000, you sometimes saw much higher than 2000 download speeds from speed testers.  But as has been stressed, you really shouldn't be able to exceed the IP profile, regardless of whether it's set by normal DLM/BRAS rules or by EUSC.  Even if we include the assured rate, you still seem to have exceeded the combination.

The only obvious explanation I can see for that discrepancy would be that the speed testers were giving flattering results.  What would be your hunch on that aspect, were these results consistent enough and convincing enough for us to look for other explanations, or would you accept 'dodgy speed testers' as the explanation?

Clutching at straws, I could also speculate that EUSC is a fairly new phenomenon and BTw haven't got it quite right yet.  I think that's unlikely because if it's using the IP profile then it's tried and tested technology.

[coolsnakeman]

I just read that orange problems thread and oh my god what the hell are they playing at. Anyone with half an ounce of wit can tell when there is a cap that has been placed on there connection you don't exactly have to be technically minded to realise that. Get out of that contract and move mate for definite cause it looks like if you don't you will have a long lasting battle with those guys to actually get them to do something for you. From that guys post it seems that you need to threaten watchdog or ofcom onto them but you shouldn't have to do this to get things done.

[dpd]

hi if your still interested i am with fast.co.uk and highly recommend them. i have had problems in the past but these were problems with bt due to my exchange having no llu services. they have now cleared but mark in customer services is always very helpful and informative. they are slightly more expensive but after a year of o2 access not working i tried fast and they are worth every penny.