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[UncleUB]

But this still means that those on long lines will still see no benefit from this.

Its a case once again of those that have will have more and those on long lines will be left further behind and paying the same for (in some cases only getting 512kbps) than those getting over 20MB.

http://www.thinkbroadband.com/news/4056-bt-pledge-24meg-to-75-of-the-country-by-2011.html

[toulouse]

Having had some experience (since 1 May) of this 21CN, I think BT must be living in cloud cuckoo land to think that the current product offering is going to be accepted by the masses. I can tell you all that there are a lot of 'not very happy bunnies' on the Plusnet trial. I've now got to the stage where I've asked to be taken off the trial, and I am sure there will be many others who follow.


toulouse

[BritBrat]

One other point announced today is that BT Wholesale will be dropping prices to communications providers from January 2010 which should reduce costs to end users. The plan is to decrease bandwidth charges by 50% and also to introduce a reduction in WBC rental costs. This should mean that providers can offer lower prices and will be more willing to bundle more bandwidth with services. This will be particularly useful with new websites tending to be more bandwidth intensive and with streaming video becoming ever more popular.

I found that more interesting but what is it?

Goverment are going to tax phone lines to improve broadband but Openreach are reducing the rental costs!!

Looks like bandwith allowances will be increasing I was wondering when something would give.

[orainsear]

Having had some experience (since 1 May) of this 21CN, I think BT must be living in cloud cuckoo land to think that the current product offering is going to be accepted by the masses.

I wonder where it's falling down.

From the little I've seen of it all it would appear to me part of the problem is the new DSLAM/MSAN hardware/software, and the potential incompatibilities with current modems.

Also, and this is something I've experienced myself, it's very possible that lines with slight faults/many joints/aluminium which just about function with standard ADSL (G.DMT) experience an exacerbation of issues when using more of the frequency spectrum/higher speeds, with increased chance of crosstalk and more spectrum that is susceptible to interference.

[toulouse]

@orainsear - you may well have something there about 'slight faults', etc. I'm fairly sure that a good part of my line to the local exchange is semi permanently water logged, but how do I prove that ? Before I joined Plusnets trial I had been with them since June 2007, and had only ever connected at 8128/448. When I went onto the trial, for the first 6-7 weeks I saw speeds of upwards of 11939(d) with SNR of around 6-7db. Something (strange) happened overnight 23/24 June and it's been completely bizarre ever since. The new 21CN DLM would only allow my line to run with an SNR of 15, even after intervention by BT engineers and Plusnet support staff, so there came a time last week when I decided that I'd had enough. They're now moving me back to the ADSL Max product to take effect this coming Friday.

TTFN


toulouse

[kitz]

>> But this still means that those on long lines will still see no benefit from this.


Unfortunately not...  until FTTC/VDSL is rolled out, then those long lines arent going to see any improvement.

Certain LLU ISPs (such as Be) have been doing adsl2+ for a long time now..  they dont have the same massive problems as BT 21CN seems to be having.

I cant quite see where the problem lies..  theres been mention of router/MSAN incompatibilities..  but TBH that doesnt sit quite right with me.

After all they are supposedly using Fujitsu GeoStreams and Huawei MSANs. 
Theres been Fujitsu Geostreams in some exchanges for years already...  and lots of other LLU ISPs already use Huawei MSANs (TT/Tiscali etc)..  so why should BT be saying theres a compatibility issue between MSAN and router when TT doesnt seem to be having the same problems.

I dunno.. but one of the major differences between the LLU operators and BT Wholesale systems is BTs DLM and the IP/bRAS profiling.   If they admitted there was a problem with their DLM system on adsl2+ then Id be more likely to understand.


>>> The new 21CN DLM would only allow my line to run with an SNR of 15, even after intervention by BT engineers and Plusnet support staff, so there came a time last week when I decided that I'd had enough.

.. and there we go.. the BTw DLM kicked in limiting the line.
The vast majority of complaints I have seen seem to involve the DLM doing something silly and or being over sensitive.

[jeffbb]

Hi
quote They're now moving me back to the ADSL Max product to take effect this coming Friday.

Good luck hope they haven't messed that up for you 

Regards Jeff

[toulouse]

kitz said .....and there we go.. the BTw DLM kicked in limiting the line

I think they must be feeding that DLM system a daily dose of crack cocaine - it certainly seems to have lost the plot !!!!


and jeffbb said.... Good luck hope they haven't messed that up for you

I don't think for 1 minute that the problems that I and many others had on the trial were down to Plusnet, they have been very helpful in trying to resolve the problems....but there comes a time when enough is enough


If the switch back to ADSL Max doesn't go smoothly I will be moving over to a LLU provider. I have a choice of a couple on my exchange, but I've got to say I do like the Plusnet service, so will stick with it for now.

[orainsear]

>>> so why should BT be saying theres a compatibility issue between MSAN and router when TT doesnt seem to be having the same problems

TT and Tiscali provide customers with Huawei modem routers - maybe they know something    Then again it's probably just been part of a mega bundle deal to provide them with MSAN hardware and user end equipment.

The DLM system is a good idea and you can understand the thinking behind it, however there just seem to be so many situations where things don't work as they should with ADSL Max that the 21CN working properly seems like a pipe dream.

[kitz]

>> TT and Tiscali provide customers with Huawei modem routers - maybe they know something

TT supply Huawei modems,
but Tiscali dont..  iirc the latest is TG585v7 or the Siemens Gigaset SE587.
Tiscali have also been wholesaling LLU for years and I dont think any of the ISPs using their services ship out Huawei routers.

>> The DLM system is a good idea and you can understand the thinking behind it, however there just seem to be so many situations where things don't work as they should with ADSL Max that the 21CN working properly seems like a pipe dream.

yep...  afterall dslMax also had horrendous teething problems and stuck profiles etc.   It still has some odd quirkyness, so its no wonder its not quite right yet on 21CN. 

[GunJack]

>>
but Tiscali dont..  iirc the latest is TG585v7 or the Siemens Gigaset SE587.

  I got told by tiscali tech support earlier that the 587 was "one of the most successful routers on the market

[geep]

Hi,

I was switched from "up to 8 Mbps" to "up to 24 Mbps" a few months back.
Now it's settled down I usually achieve about 5 Mbps, about .5 Mbps faster than the "up to 8 Mbps" service.
If I'm typical, then investing in 24Mb infrastructure is a waste of money.

5Mb is usually fine for my current needs, but I do see big variations in achieved speed from day-to-day.

I do feel short-changed in that I'm not getting what the service promises.
My ISP tells me with Line Attenuation Down of 37.5 dB I should get much faster. Maybe I'll changed to Be/LLU.

Cheers,
Peter

[waltergmw]

Hi geep,

You'll see that Kitz estimates you should get 10656 kbps with an attenuation of 37.5 and that falls in nicely with Zen's real word speed estimates of 9 to 13 mbps you'll find written on their site. Any suggestion that the population on average is going to get anywhere near 20mbps is in the cloud cuckoo land of marketeers and certainly not real practioners !

Kind regards,
Walter

[toulouse]

@waltergmw,

yes cloud cuckoo land indeed - I was actually told (unofficially) by a member of Plusnet support staff, that to be able to achieve speeds of 20Mbps you would actually have to live in the exchange, and while some of the buildings are quite large I don't think that's gonna fly. 

[kitz]

I know of a 39dB line that should in theory go much faster than it did.   
It was fine at 8128 for many months until after one episode when the DLM kicked in.. and then it was a downwards spiral.
Despite requests for resets etc, the DLM would for ever after kick in at the slightest thing resulting in sync speeds of around 5/6Mb as normal.

Getting totally fed up of the BT IPprofiling + DLM... which seemed to be the main problem.. the line was migrated to Be LLU..  where it now happily sits at around 10Mb on a 3dB profile.

I know why the DLM is supposed to be there...  but when it starts misbehaving it can be a real PITA. 
I myself have had lots of problems with the IPprofiling system in the past which have had me tearing my hair out...  and thats on a very good line.