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Author Topic: Possible HR Dis problem? Help please!  (Read 15812 times)

flip74

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Re: Possible HR Dis problem? Help please!
« Reply #15 on: September 10, 2009, 01:59:54 PM »

Woke up this morning and my sync was lost again (sounds like I've got the ADSL Blues  :rain:)

This was with the ST585v6 and yet again, answering the phone caused a resync with that lovely hissing down the earpiece). Putting the phone down and turning my back on the router for a second... woosh, gone again.

Swapped over to the DG834G which synced almost right away, but I was unable to browse as there was no IP allocated by my ISP. Rebooting made no difference.

Disconnected everything & put a phone in the test socket. Crackle still present.

Connected up a micro filter instead of the XTE2005 as well as the ST585, powered up... and got sync at around 5 Mbps with none (or very little) of that hissing.  :wall:

Swapped back to the DG834G, synced at the same rate and no or little noise. Cue more :wall:

Disconnected everything again and placed a phone in the test socket, clear (as far as I can tell)

Put the XTE2005 back from earlier, and synced at the 5 Meg mark. This is with both the DG834G and ST585.

I've had this sort of result before, where things look like they've been sorted out. But within a few days, the fault rears its ugly head again. Typically, my throughput never improves.

Throughput is still at 160 kbps, and I don't think things will improve.

The other thing is, the weather is really pretty good. No rain, unlike yesterday and no wind (well not outside anyway  ;))

I think I definitely need someone to actually take a good look at my line.

Phill
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waltergmw

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Re: Possible HR Dis problem? Help please!
« Reply #16 on: September 10, 2009, 02:24:43 PM »

Hi Phil,

I wonder if your screwdriver might just accidentally brush against BT's incoming pair in your NTE5 ?
(It would be highly regrettable and a pure accident of course.)
Kind regards,
Walter
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flip74

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Re: Possible HR Dis problem? Help please!
« Reply #17 on: September 10, 2009, 02:52:37 PM »

Hi Walter,

The incoming pair are well out the way (on the rear of BT's property on the NTE5, which I have no intention of touching) and there is no way I could have caught them with my screwdriver.

There seems an quite a lot of spare cable length (colours white/blue and blue/white) which I gather are my A and B. There was nothing connected to the original NTE faceplate. The other 4 wires are way too short to be used as spares.

Everything was working OK from last June, when I fitted the XTE2005, till this June. I have had no reason prior to this fault occurring to remove the XTE2005.

The way my line is wired is:

From the pole, the drop wire comes to the first main master socket which is a non NTE master. My line is using the spare pair of the drop cable, where it has been joint to what looks like CAT5 cable (not twisted) inside the housing of the non NTE socket.

The drop cable for my line goes back outside into the porch (where for some reason the Engineer decided to staple it to the porch door frame / step). I have no idea if this is external grade cable, but it is quite open to the elements.

This then enters my NTE5.

I'd have thought at least, Openreach would have checked the NTE, the non NTE and the drop cables.

Both lines are separate masters.

Phill
« Last Edit: September 10, 2009, 02:54:47 PM by flip74 »
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waltergmw

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Re: Possible HR Dis problem? Help please!
« Reply #18 on: September 10, 2009, 05:15:52 PM »

Hi again Phillip,

It does sound as if you have inspected both the cables and their joints quite carefully, which I was hinting would be a good idea. I'm assuming you have two separate phone lines.

Unless you know otherwise, it's not impossible that someone other than a BT engineer has obtained a BT NTE5 and hasn't made a very good job of checking the crimp connectors in the original master socket, or has perhaps either left insulation on the NTE5 screw terminals or left them not fully tightened. If the master sockets have been installed recently I would have expected that the drop cable would probably have been terminated in an external junction box and two separate cables would then feed the two sockets. Ezzer can probably confirm this. I'm intrigued by your description of untwisted Cat 5 cable. Firstly all these types of cable are supposed to be twisted and Cat 5 has four twisted pairs whereas BT cable usually only has three pairs. Unless the cable is brown or black it is probably not external grade cable. Under a porch this is unlikely to be of concern unless it has been damaged by somebody or by the staples.

As your master socket is going through another master there could be a question over the ownership so detailed careful inspection might be useful.

In any event it would be a good thing if BT could check your lines if you can find an excuse for them to do so without charging you their call-out fee.

Kind regards,
Walter
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flip74

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Re: Possible HR Dis problem? Help please!
« Reply #19 on: September 10, 2009, 05:57:33 PM »

Hi Walter,

I thought I may have gotten hold of the wrong end of the stick. Apologies if so.

My line was fitted 12 years ago for my Business by B.T. where I also suffered from the infamous DACS. The other master socket (non NTE) was fitted nearly 30 years ago.

The 2 master sockets are both indeed separate lines and numbers. Both are ours, or B.T.'s whichever way you look at it!

About 8 years ago; whilst I was browsing the web on dial up, I had the misfortune of being caught up in a thunderstorm which promptly took out my Modem. Other than the modem, no other problems were found. The modem took the brunt.

I mentioned this to the B.T. Engineer when this problem I've got now arose, as I thought I may have a duff NTE. He didn't want to know and didn't give me the benefit of the doubt.

The cable supplying my line is of a combination of coloured bands on coloured wires and not solid coloured, if that makes sense. That's why I likened it to CAT5, though I doubt it is.

Only 2 of the wires are used, leaving the others (forgot to count how many!) free. None are twisted, which I thought would have been more tidy for one, as well as also putting noise 180 degrees out of phase.

On the other line, I can swear I can hear hum. I have disconnected any mains products near there and has made no difference. Also, I believe there is a noise which sounds like: tick-ti-tick-tick. God I'm crap at describing things  :-[

I think the drop cable in the porch for my line is in a really bad position. It hasn't been fitted very tidily and is open to the elements as well as being pretty dangerous in case of tripping.

I'd have hoped as Openreach were charging £150+ for coming out, that they would have replaced my NTE, the non NTE5 as well as the wiring from the pole etc. and who knows, maybe fixed the fault in doing so.

A couple of years ago, my line went totally dead (no voice or data). After testing the basics of filters etc. I registered a fault with B.T. online.

The next day, the Engineer phoned up saying there was a fault at the exchange which he'd fixed, but I'd be without the Internet for up to 10 days. As to why, he didn't say.

I got in touch with Pipex and they weren't aware of any faults. It took over a fortnight for things to get back to normal. From what I gather, I think a lift and shift had been done.

Phill

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waltergmw

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Re: Possible HR Dis problem? Help please!
« Reply #20 on: September 10, 2009, 06:54:48 PM »

Hi again Phil,

Have you done the quiet line test on both lines 17070 option 2 and cover the mouthpiece.
Both lines should be silent. If not call BT to fix it and strongly suggest they run a new drop cable and install a new NTE5 in place of the very old one. If you have paid the £150 I don't think it's unreasonable that they be called back to complete the job properly.

Kind regards,
Walter
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flip74

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Re: Possible HR Dis problem? Help please!
« Reply #21 on: September 10, 2009, 07:15:26 PM »

Hi,

I've done a 17070 option 2 test a few times. Besides the intermittent crackle on my line, which seems to have gone for now, I'd say both line weren't particularly clear. I'm pretty certain there is a low frequency hiss/hum present on both line. What I'm pretty cautious of is whether I am being too particular? I mean how much noise is acceptable?

On the first master socket (where the drop cable from the pole enters the property), people who we've called have claimed that they cannot hear us well as the line to them is low in volume. This line does not have ADSL.

Of course, when the first Openreach guy took a listen, everything was Okayed despite my line hissing like mad due to the HR (?) fault. When we pointed out that it was far from quiet he didn't want to know and advised we pestered B.T. Retail. This was the guy who blamed everything on the filter, even though changing it didn't make any difference.

Phill
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The Gunner

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Re: Possible HR Dis problem? Help please!
« Reply #22 on: September 11, 2009, 10:14:37 PM »

Hi guys, first time poster here.  

I'm an Openreach engineer who deals with (amongst other things) SFI faults and I hope I can give a few pointers.  (Tin hat firmly on :)

It certainly does sound like you have a HR Dis on the line.  I assume you have tried your 17070 test from the NTE test socket and that the NTE is the first point at which the incoming line terminates.  This may sound a bit primitive, but if you are able to reach your dropwire (either from the ground or out of a bedroom window, be careful mind), setup a quiet line test and give the dropwire a good shake with a line prop/broom/big stick etc.  Any noise will indicate the DW to be faulty.

HRs, especially intermittent ones can be notoriously difficult to find.  I have 12 years experience and every now and again I come across one that is nigh on impossible to track down.  The Hawk tester is good, but it can't find something that ain't broke at the exact moment it is tested.  However, once the noise has started, it's only going to gradually get worse.  In some cases, I've advised customers to re-report the problem when the noise has been there for a few days at least.  It may be frustrating for a while, but it greatly improves the probability of a succesful repair.

Another issue is that broadband SFI faults are given a time limit of 2 hours (imposed by the ISPs and OFCOM).  If the line is testing OK, then in-depth testing and diagnostics can become very difficult without getting a slap on the wrist from one's manager.

Anyway, good luck, hope you get to the bottom of it.

Edit, Just noticed this in one of your previous posts "On the other line, I can swear I can hear hum. I have disconnected any mains products near there and has made no difference. Also, I believe there is a noise which sounds like: tick-ti-tick-tick. God I'm crap at describing things "

Do you live in a rural location?  If so, the 'tick-tick' could be indicative of an electric fence running parallel to the BT cables at some point,  it could also be a split pair which affects the capacitance of the line (the ability of the pair to reject AC noise) and induces noise off other lines.  A tick-ti-tick tick could well be the ringing current of another line.  The hum could also be indicative of an earth contact fault, either with another line, or earth itself (tree rub, wet joint etc).  

If your DW shakey shakey test bears no fruit, then I'd suggest there may be a wet joint somewhere, possibly underground.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2009, 10:28:43 PM by The Gunner »
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flip74

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Re: Possible HR Dis problem? Help please!
« Reply #23 on: September 11, 2009, 10:58:29 PM »

Hi The Gunner,

Thanks for replying and making mine your fist post   :congrats:

Things have been behaving themselves again today, though the weather has been really good. I expect the problem will rear it's ugly head again when it rains  >:D Throughput is still low.

There is a slight hiss on both lines, with just a phone connected. Whether I'm being too sensitive about it, I don't know.

I'm not in a rural area, and the ticking sound on the other line I thought might have been due to the cable swaying in the wind, if you know what I mean. I unplugged any mains devices near by and it was still there.

I understand about the regulations imposed on the OR Engineers, and really don't admire them. Just wish I'd have been listened to as we both would have been happier. I genned up on HR faults and mentioned the HAWK. Both times this was ignored. In fact the second one didn''t have one.

I ran my own electronic repair business for a few years, and understand what customers can be like. I would have gladly helped the OR Engineers who came here had they actually looked at the state of the wiring prior to my side of the NTE.

Thanks again, it is greatly appreciated that you posted.

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The Gunner

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Re: Possible HR Dis problem? Help please!
« Reply #24 on: September 11, 2009, 11:13:42 PM »

Thanks for the welcome,  :)

Sadly flip, the "2 hour rule" can be, and often is, abused.  If you're an engineer of a certain disposition, then it's easy to faff around for a few hours and close the job off without having done a fat lot.

As I mentioned, OR are payed for 2 hours work by the ISP and management are very keen to ensure this is obeyed.

As for the Hawk, it is not essential for the location of an HR fault.  If the fault is obvious enough, then the Hawk's older sibling (the 301C) http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/tester-301c_W0QQitemZ180404539810QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_BOI_Electrical_Test_Measurement_Equipment_ET?hash=item2a00f2d1a2&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14#ht_500wt_1182 is more than capable of locating it.

I'd expect your throughput to remain low at the moment, as the BRAS will keep your IP profile low until it can see an improvement in line quality over a period of 72 hours or so.  I presume your SNR margin is quite high.  As this drops lower to the desired 6dB, then in theory, your download speed will gradually work it's way up to the maximum stable rate.

Until that HR is sorted though, I wouldn't expect any real change in speed.

As for your other line, it may be worth reporting the noise (hum, tick-tick) as this sounds like a UG problem, probably a wet joint.  If the offending joint is remade (as it should be), you may well find that the problem with your ADSL is also cured.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2009, 11:19:15 PM by The Gunner »
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flip74

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Re: Possible HR Dis problem? Help please!
« Reply #25 on: September 11, 2009, 11:39:17 PM »

Hi,

Both of the Engineers who came out stayed for about half an hour. The first guy came with a laptop and his Voyager (?) modem and decided that there was sync and that it was my 2 day old XTE2005 at fault.

This was even though we'd explained that there was sync but it was low and intermittent. My ISP were aware of this too, as I'd been keeping them up to date with the situation. Sync was around 4 Meg, which previously to the fault was 8128 kbps with a throughput of around 4 to 5 meg.

What really bugged me was that he refitted my XTE2005 which he condemned earlier. This maintained the 4 Meg sync till the next bit of rain. Why not replace it for an Openreach filtered faceplate if the XTE2005 was faulty, or for one of the assortment of microfilters that I'd left out?

We made him aware of the loud hissing due to the HR fault through the phone, to which he said pester B.T. Retail.

The other guy stayed for less than half hour after trying to blame my router as well as my eeePC which was running Router Stats to monitor my line.

After swapping my stuff in front of him and mentioning about corrosion and HR Dis etc. He disappeared, never to be seen again. By us that is  :lol: He said water couldn't get in, as it was a sealed unit.

I think, that at least the NTE and the drop wire between master sockets could have been replaced. Because the drop cable is only around a metre long, then replacing this and the NTE5 would take less than 2 hours? Maybe even replace the ancient non NTE box too? I'd have loved to have helped if it was possible.

The other thing was when I received a telephone call from the complaints department at B.T. who said that from my description of the fault being a HR Dis, did not agree with what she knew of a HR Dis. In other words, the computer says no! It shouldn't really be up to me to diagnose a fault on their property!?

As a result of her not thinking it was a HR fault, she said she didn't want to proceed down that route, but could I check the line with just a telephone in the test socket for the billionth time :help:

Now to see what my phone bill will behold  :(

Phill


« Last Edit: September 12, 2009, 12:00:22 AM by flip74 »
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kitz

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Re: Possible HR Dis problem? Help please!
« Reply #26 on: September 12, 2009, 09:59:35 AM »

Hi The Gunner and welcome to the forums :)


-----------------------------------------


@ flip

as has been mentioned previous, then the HR fault will be causing the underlying problem for your adsl.


>> who said that from my description of the fault being a HR Dis, did not agree with what she knew of a HR Dis

The loss of adsl when lifting/replacing the receiver is one of the common signs, but if you are only dealing with the voice side of BT, they seem to ignore all broadband related faults.  Leaving the customer with the unfortunate piggy in the middle between voice & adsl faults :/

>> Things have been behaving themselves again today, though the weather has been really good. I expect the problem will rear it's ugly head again when it rains

It often does :(
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general disquiet

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Re: Possible HR Dis problem? Help please!
« Reply #27 on: September 12, 2009, 11:16:05 AM »

Hi all,

I just thought it might be worth my throwing in my two 'pennorth regarding filtered faceplates as I've just come to the end of a week long test of the XTE-2005 vs the Openrech ADSL 1.0.  Given the rave reviews the XTE-2005 gets, I expected it to be at least as good as the Openreach product and possibly give me a modest increase in speed.  The results were not as expected.

Before replacing the Openreach ADSL 1.0, my IP profile was 1500 kbps with a SNR of 12 dB and a sync speed of 1790-1804kbps.  Immediately after fitting the XTE-2005, the sync speed dropped to below 1400kbps and the SNR rose by 1 dB.  Needless to say, the IP profile dropped. which is not what I needed.

This morning, the bitloading on my BT 2700HGV looked like this with the XTE-2005:



I then replaced this with the Openreach ADSL 1.0 and the bitloading looked as follows:



Neither are particularly good, but the bitloading for the Openreach faceplate is better, and there was an immediate and significant gain in sync speed when the faceplate was replaced.  In fact, it returned to its pre-XTE-2005 level.

I'm sure some people find them of benefit, but they clearly don't give an advantage on all lines.  It would be interesting to know if there were any line characteristics that reduced the efficiency of the XTE-2005 - aluminium ones like mine perhaps?
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flip74

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Re: Possible HR Dis problem? Help please!
« Reply #28 on: September 12, 2009, 11:19:57 AM »

Hi,

So with a HR fault, am I right in thinking that it can give the impression that things have improved, especially in drier/calmer weather?

In reality, the HR is still present. i.e the symptoms are intermittent, but the problem is still there?

This would tally in with what's been happening.

To me now, the hissing noise when ADSL is present is still there; but it is less obvious.

Also, what I thought were the biggest indicators of a fault was the fact that my sync was no longer at 8128 kbps, that the SNR Margin had rose from 6 dB to 15 dB or more and the Attenuation had risen too.

At the present, my stats are:
         
Bandwidth (Up/Down) [kbps/kbps]:                     448 / 5,120
Line Attenuation (Up/Down) [dB]:                       22.5 / 36.0
SN Margin (Up/Down) [dB]:                                 25.0 / 16.0

Attenuation has come down to 36 dB from 45 dB when the symptoms were more obvious. I cannot see my SNR eve coming back to it's usual 6 dB whilst things are still up in the air.

The weather, is dry and calm again.

Phill
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general disquiet

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Re: Possible HR Dis problem? Help please!
« Reply #29 on: September 12, 2009, 11:50:35 AM »

Phill,

Apologies if this has been mentioned before, but have you tried running RouterStats with your DG834?  It would at least give you an idea of what was happening with your line on a near continuous basis and whether there was any clear pattern to it.  If there is, it might suggest the cause more precisely, but more important than that, it might offer a bit of a work around.

I's suggest running for a week, at least, to build up a good picture.

You might also want to take a look at http://winterbournestoke-thedigitaldivide.blogspot.com/.  There would seem to be a few similarities between your own problems and those here - icluding people complaining of low volumes on the phone.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2009, 11:55:54 AM by general disquiet »
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