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Author Topic: Possible HR Dis problem? Help please!  (Read 15810 times)

flip74

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Possible HR Dis problem? Help please!
« on: September 04, 2009, 03:04:25 AM »

Hi,

Since early June this year, I have had an issue with my Broadband connection.

First thing I noticed, was that I had lost sync overnight, prior to this, connection was solid, and the Router is set up to Auto Connect, but this time didn't.

Later that day, my sync came back but at a much reduced rate, with a throughput of 160kbps on what should be an 8 Meg ADSL Max service.

Sync was previously at 8128kbps with an average throughput of 5Meg. I'd also noticed that the SNR Margin had risen from it's average of 6dB to 12dB or higher. Attenuation had risen to 37dB about 45dB.

Through the Telephone, I noticed that there was a hissing noise present on the line whilst the Router was synced. With the Router disconnected, the hiss disappeared.

I also noticed that I could force the Router to sync by lifting the handset and that replacing it would cause the router to lose sync, This can be quite random though.

Sync eventually settled at 160 kbps with a throughput of 135kbps or less. As Sync was unable to be maintained for hours let alone the recommended 3 to 5 days, my Internet Profile was unlikely to improve.

As a process of elimination, I ruled out my filter, cable and router as the prime suspects by using replacements. Luckily, I've kept every piece of ADSL gear since I started on Broadband.

Swapping the above, and using different combinations of said above, made no difference to the fault conditions.

Just to be sure though, a new XTE2005 faceplate and Twisted pair ADSL cable were ordered and fitted. No change.

I'd done quite a bit of research of the symptoms, and the fault appeared to be a HR Dis.

By now as I felt there was no more I could do, I contacted my ISP (Fast.co.uk) and after confirming I'd carried out all the basic checks on my side of the NTE5, an Openreach Engineer was arranged to visit.

After one “no show”, another was arranged. But unfortunately for me, he decided it was a faulty filter that was to blame as he said there was sync present. This was despite me mentioning that the sync was unable to be maintained, as well as mentioning it was a brand new filter and also not the only one I'd tried (along with 3 Routers, 1 USB ADSL Modem and numerous cables).

Rather than replace the filter with, he just refitted the alleged faulty and left me with the hissing down the phone and the fault still present.

I'd mentioned about the H.R. Dis, but he didn't want to know. No checks were made of B.T.'s equipment especially the DP at the Pole. And no HAWK was used to check for a potential H.R. Fault.

As a result of this, I face paying a B.T. Openreach call out charge of £150 + VAT, even though the fault is still present.

By now, especially after bad weather, there was now a crackle through the Telephone whilst this was connected to the Test Socket behind the NTE5. So after contacting B.T. Retail, another Openreach Engineer came out. Hurrah! I thought.

But.... He 'discovered' that the original hissing noise which I'd attributed to being because of a H.R. Dis disappeared when my Router was disconnected. Which I believe is yet another symptom of a H.R. Fault as there'd be no Modem/Router on the line to initiate ADSL.

As a result of his in-depth check of pulling the WAN cable out of my Router, he deemed that it was a faulty Router. At which point, I swapped my gear over in front of him and alas the fault was still there.

Again I mentioned a H.R. Fault and again, no checks were made of any B.T. Equipment.

He told me he'd have to run more diagnostics and he'd be back later. He's never been seen again.

So I'm anticipating another £150 + VAT charge, even though the fault is still present.

I've had very little help from my ISP about this. I've even contacted Ian Livingston CEO at B.T. who basically couldn't care less.

I have been monitoring my connection with RouterStats and have enclosed graphs which I hope someone could translate in to something meaningful.

The top one enlosed is after sync had been lost, then regained at 2.5 Mbps until SNR margin dropped to -1 dB (as indicated by the spike of 21 million dBs). Sync was reestablished until again the drop in SNR margin. Nex resync was at 160kbps.

The next one is showing sync at 160 kbps but a SNR Margin of a lot of spikes (or dips of -1db)back to 0db.

If any more info or graphs are required, I'll see what I can do.

Many Thanks,

Phill



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« Last Edit: September 04, 2009, 03:14:38 AM by flip74 »
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roseway

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Re: Possible HR Dis problem? Help please!
« Reply #1 on: September 04, 2009, 07:15:43 AM »

Hi and welcome

You've certainly had a rough deal from BT, and I've every sympathy because I've been through the same situation myself (except that in my case the problem is only intermittent).

The large increase in attenuation is more than I would expect from any cause other than a high resistance fault, so I'm in agreement with you that this is the most probable cause of the problem. As the phone noise isn't present when the router is disconnected, I don't think you'll get any more joy from the telephone side of BT, who have no interest in ADSL problems.

What you need is an SFI engineer who will really work on the problem. They can use a test instrument called a hawk which is capable of working out where on a line the bad joint is, but skill and perseverance is needed, particularly if the fault is some distance from your home. Unfortunately they don't all have the required perseverance (or they aren't allowed to use it).

Your ISP needs to escalate this to a higher technical level in BT Openreach. I don't know how good your ISP is at this sort of thing, but I think it's your only hope of getting a solution. You'll need to stay patient and persuasive, and keep all the facts about what you've done well organised. From your description I think you've done all you can personally to prove that the fault is on the line and not in your home.
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  Eric

general disquiet

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Re: Possible HR Dis problem? Help please!
« Reply #2 on: September 04, 2009, 07:30:24 AM »

I agree with Roseway, but it may be worth checking to see if you have a bellwire - if you haven't done so already.
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flip74

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Re: Possible HR Dis problem? Help please!
« Reply #3 on: September 04, 2009, 10:42:53 AM »

Hi,

Thank you from the replies and the welcome.

I have observed a crackle on the line whilst just a telephone is connected into the NTE5 Test Socket and no ADSL. But typically, it is quite intermittent. I'm convinced that it appears whilst the weather is really bad.

As for my ISP, I can't see them doing anything more unless I pay up for the approx £150 for Openreach's first visit (well should be second visit, but they didn't turn up). This is despite me going through all the tests (filters etc.) that I carried out before contacting them. They don't seem too bothered about my Openreach experience.

I've been told I couldn't pay by cheque; as it would take too long for them to pay B.T., so I'd have to phone with my card details. No statement has been provided and when I asked exactly what Openreach tests were carried out, I was told no list was available.

I've thought about migrating, and have asked for a MAC in an email to them. But this is met with the following:

Quote
How do you want to make the payment? Do you want to give me a call to sort it, and we can then get a MAC issued.

Which looks like my MAC is at Ransom! As well as being against OFCOM regulation 1.14.

Again, as there is crackle on the line (not the same noise as when the router is connected up), this is why I'd got back to B.T.

At them moment, after being told by the C.E.O.'s Assistant that she'd stick with me until everything was sorted, it's gone all quiet. From B.T. that is, not my Line!

Whilst running Router Stats, I've observed that:

Having the handset off the hook whilst powering up the Router causes it to sync at a higher sync rate. This usually is lost when the handset is replaced.

Whilst the Router is powered up and then lifting the handset up, causes a steep increase in Rx-Noise. This starts decreasing when the handset is replaced.

Regarding RouterStats, is there anything available in its features that could point to a line fault in the results?
I've basically just been using it to monitor Rx-Sync and Rx-Noise and have only just started dabbling with Telnet features such as Bits/Tone and Bit Swapping.

I've also 'forced' sync by lifting the handset. But this becomes a right pain if I have to keep doing it every 10 minutes or so!

If any more graphs etc. are required, I'd greatly oblige.

As for a Bell Wire, there isn't one connected up. The NTE5 is the only socket I've got, and there are no extensions connected to it.

Once again thanks for the replies, and also thanks to this really useful site.

Phill
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roseway

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Re: Possible HR Dis problem? Help please!
« Reply #4 on: September 04, 2009, 11:52:01 AM »

You're certainly right to say that the ISP can't refuse you a MAC while there is a dispute over a charge. It's a shame that you have to move ISP to get a proper service, but it seems pretty clear that the first OR engineer didn't do a proper job, and the ISP needed to escalate it. You need an SFI (Special Faults Investigation) engineer with a hawk to do it properly, and you're in your ISP's hands for getting that arranged.

I don't think that there's any more useful information to be had from Routerstats or anything else. Your descriptions of the symptoms and what you've done to check things seem quite complete to me, and one of the better ISPs should be able to take that forward.
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flip74

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Re: Possible HR Dis problem? Help please!
« Reply #5 on: September 04, 2009, 12:31:09 PM »

Hi,

Thanks again.

I'd been advised to migrate to Anderson & Arnold as they are able to take on a line with a fault and sound pretty capable at sorting it out. This is where the MAC problem arose, it's been way longer than 5 working days since I requested one from my ISP.

I thought what I'd do for now is give B.T. a nudge again, as I was told a request had been made to OR for an "End to End Check" which I hope means they'll actually physically examine the line rather than run an automated test which typically for a H.R. problem can pass it as OK.

I'm really cautious about contacting my ISP again as I think they will want paying for the first OR visit before arranging another. And then there's the possibility of not having proper checks done again and yet another £150+ charge.

I've sought advice from the C.A.B. and Trading Standards who advised not to pay anybody anything as adequate tests were not made and the fault remains.

I really think the fault could be at the drop wire from the pole, or maybe I'm just hopeful! I'd have thought as they were going to charge me for the visit, they may as have changed the drop wire as well as the NTE5. Which may have sorted the fault out.

As there is some noise (even intermittently) with just the phone in the 'Test Socket' my ISP say it is a matter for B.T. Arrggghh!!!

Phill
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kitz

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Re: Possible HR Dis problem? Help please!
« Reply #6 on: September 04, 2009, 07:34:18 PM »

Certainly does appear to be some sort of HR fault.

Since you have done all the normal checks (and more) then there is a bit of a problem with the £150 fee.  Ive known Fast in the past dispute BTs charges and their support is normally better than the average ISP.

They should not however be holding your MAC to ransom and it is in breach of OFCOM regulations if they haven't supplied it within 5 working days.

You appear to be in that unenviable situation where an adsl fault cant be reported if theres an open voice fault and vice-versa.  Theres also the possibility that if you call out BT as a voice fault and they dont find anything then another yet charge could be applied from then.

Possibly the best thing to do would be report it as a voice fault and fingers crossed you get a decent OR engineer, and you could very casually drop a few things into the conversation..  along with the tea&biccies / bacon butty trick.
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flip74

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Re: Possible HR Dis problem? Help please!
« Reply #7 on: September 05, 2009, 04:01:22 PM »

Hi Kitz,

Thanks for the reply.

I gave B.T. a gentle reminder and have been told the fault has been escalated to Openreach via the consumer repair team.

Hopefully things will start moving in the right direction, but only time will tell.

Tried the tea and biccies both times, but they didn't want any. Maybe it's because we only had Rich Tea and not Hob Nobs  ;)

Hopefully if someone else comes out again, then I hope they at least check the wiring on their side of the DP.

Cheers!

Phill
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kitz

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Re: Possible HR Dis problem? Help please!
« Reply #8 on: September 06, 2009, 01:50:59 PM »

>> I gave B.T. a gentle reminder and have been told the fault has been escalated to Openreach via the consumer repair team.


 :fingers:
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flip74

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Re: Possible HR Dis problem? Help please!
« Reply #9 on: September 06, 2009, 01:55:11 PM »

Hello again,

I don't know if this will help, but I've run more tests with Router Stats and obtained the following results.

In the first graph, the rise in Rx-Noise from 7 dB to 19 dB occurred when the telephone is lifted of the hook. This continues fluctuating around 19 - 20 dB until the phone is replaced on the hook, where it drops down to 15 dB.

In the short time I ran the test, the following bit swaps were happening:

 Sun 06 Sep 2009   13:23:02:  Started
      Sun 06 Sep 2009   13:28:31:  Bitswap in Tones: 92, 95, 96, 97, 98, 101, 115, 126, 130, 133, 134, 136, 137, 138, 139, 141, 142, 144, 147, 164, 166, 169, 170, 171, 172, 173, 174, 178, 179, 182, 184, 187, 189, 190, 191, 192, 195, 200, 224, 227,
      Sun 06 Sep 2009   13:29:36:  Bitswap in Tones: 95, 96, 97, 98, 115, 126, 130, 133, 134, 136, 137, 138, 139, 141, 142, 144, 147, 164, 166, 169, 170, 171, 172, 173, 174, 178, 179, 182, 184, 187, 189, 190, 191, 192, 195, 200, 224, 227,
      Sun 06 Sep 2009   13:30:09:  Bitswap in Tones: 95, 96, 97, 98, 115, 126, 130, 133, 134, 136, 137, 138, 139, 141, 142, 144, 147, 164, 166, 169, 170, 171, 172, 173, 174, 178, 179, 182, 184, 187, 189, 190, 191, 192, 195, 200, 224, 227,
      Sun 06 Sep 2009   13:30:12:  Bitswap in Tones: 95, 96, 97, 98, 115, 126, 130, 133, 134, 136, 137, 138, 139, 141, 142, 144, 147, 164, 166, 169, 170, 171, 172, 173, 174, 178, 179, 182, 184, 187, 189, 190, 191, 192, 195, 200, 224, 227,
      Sun 06 Sep 2009   13:31:05:  Bitswap in Tones: 95, 96, 97, 98, 115, 126, 130, 133, 134, 136, 137, 138, 139, 141, 142, 144, 147, 164, 166, 169, 170, 171, 172, 173, 174, 178, 179, 182, 184, 187, 189, 190, 191, 192, 195, 200, 224, 227,
      Sun 06 Sep 2009   13:31:28:  Bitswap in Tones: 95, 96, 97, 98, 115, 126, 130, 133, 134, 136, 137, 138, 139, 141, 142, 144, 147, 164, 166, 169, 170, 171, 172, 173, 174, 178, 179, 182, 184, 187, 189, 190, 191, 192, 195, 200, 224, 227,
      Sun 06 Sep 2009   13:35:06:  Bitswap in Tones: 147, 187,
      Sun 06 Sep 2009   13:35:15:  Stopped

Don't know if this is of any use, but I'm learning a bit!

Phill

P.S. Thanks Kitz. Great website and forums  :thumbs:

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kitz

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Re: Possible HR Dis problem? Help please!
« Reply #10 on: September 06, 2009, 02:09:20 PM »

Quote
In the first graph, the rise in Rx-Noise from 7 dB to 19 dB occurred when the telephone is lifted of the hook. This continues fluctuating around 19 - 20 dB until the phone is replaced on the hook, where it drops down to 15 dB.

That really does indicate that you would appear to have a HR fault - usually caused by a corroded joint.

From  ~ adsl only works when the phone is being used.

Quote
If so - Possibly a fault on the actual phone line perhaps due to worn cables or water on the line.
There may be times when a cable or joint is only slightly damaged/corroded and shows no immediate problem, however the damage is sufficient to increase resistance on the line.
When the phone line is in use, it generates a small electrical current which is needed to carry the voice signal. This current helps reduce resistance on the line and can be sufficient to "bridge the gap" just enough to carry the adsl signal. This is known as a High Open or High Resistance Fault.
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flip74

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Re: Possible HR Dis problem? Help please!
« Reply #11 on: September 06, 2009, 02:21:07 PM »

Hi Kitz,

So even though there was sync at 160 kbps at 7 dB, I take it that the increase in noise to ~ 20 dB when the phone is off the hook is off the hook is indicative of a HR fault?

I noticed that with a normal type ADSL cable (non twisted pair) that sync wasn't established until the handset of the phone was lifted. Replacing the handset caused sync loss.

With a combination of an XTE2005 and Twisted Pair cable, sync is less susceptible to loss, but the increase in SNR margin happens whatever.

Phill

Edit: Plus, with just a phone in the test socket, there was quite bit of crackle present. I wonder if this will stick around though!
« Last Edit: September 06, 2009, 02:30:09 PM by flip74 »
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jeffbb

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Re: Possible HR Dis problem? Help please!
« Reply #12 on: September 06, 2009, 03:20:13 PM »

Hi

quote Plus, with just a phone in the test socket, there was quite bit of crackle present. I wonder if this will stick around though!

Try reporting VOICE fault to BT on 151 whilst the noise is there . If the operator can hear it then there will be some evidence of the problem.

Regards Jeff
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flip74

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Re: Possible HR Dis problem? Help please!
« Reply #13 on: September 09, 2009, 11:53:11 PM »

Still not heard back from B.T. as of yet, but will wait until Friday to give a bit more of a gentle reminder, when I'll be following Trading Standards advice of putting it all in writing and giving B.T. 7 days to sort it out.

Line is still crackly with just a phone in.

In the meantime, I've bought a Speedtouch 585 v6 from eBay so I could have a play with DMT Tools. From which, I got the graph below.

I'm not au fait with DMT Tools, but it definitely doesn't look like the graph on the Kitz website for a healthy line. Maybe somebody can translate it a bit better!

Phill

[attachment deleted by admin]
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kitz

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Re: Possible HR Dis problem? Help please!
« Reply #14 on: September 10, 2009, 09:38:23 AM »

It certainly doesnt look right.

Tones 138 to about 300 are only loading minimal bits.  On a healthly line you'd expect tones around 200 to show the best bitloading. Theres also lots of gaps much further on.  This is why your speed is so poor.

Your 'real SNR' (grey lines) seem to show a slightly better picture - but that curve still is far from  right.  The best tones should be around 48.   Indication is that if you performed a resync when that graph was taken that your sync speed would likely be a tiny better... but at a guess not that much.

If I saw that graph without knowing the history, then my first thought would be filters/internal wiring..  its symtomatic of a line that is getting some sort of EMI.  A HR fault can also cause this though.


If that crackle is still there, then as jeff says try reporting it on 151.
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