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[dayvh]

It's been a few years since I posted on this site, previously I explained Virgin had me on 8MB that couldn't push past a 56k download speed or anything below 30,000ms latency to most UK servers. After several months of calls to their technical support line I actually spoke to someone who knew what the heck they were on about. He setup a downgrade from 8MB IPStream to 2MB Datastream and it worked like a charm 24/7, max download speed and minimum latency for over a year.
This year they forcibly upgraded me to 8MB IPStream again and gave me aload of tosh about express lines and how they can't provide the 2MB Datastream anymore. This is rather ironic because a friend down the street was also having issues with the Virgin 8MB back when I was on the 2MB perfect package and I suggested he ring up and ask for the same thing I'm on. Funnily enough they told him that they couldn't provide this for him in our area anymore as they had upgraded all their equipment and it was basically too primitive, bare in mind I'm like 50feet up the road and actually on the "primitive" package.
Anyway to cut a long story short I was forcibly upgraded to 8MB, download speed and latency are perfect after midnight and before 7am and then the trouble starts. I couldn't care less about the 60kb/s download speed I actually get between 7am and midnight but the latency is just diabolical. Even if I play a game that had its netcode developed for 56k and very early broadband like Warcraft 3, after about 10mins of internet use it just goes ape and I start getting latency spikes of anything up to 10,000ms minimum.
I'm no broadband guru or anything hence why I'm posting here but I rang BT Broadband and spoke to them about switching over from Virgin and they checked my line stats and explained they were  receiving amazing results since I live like two streets away from the exchange and that if I did ever switch over I shouldn't expect my line to drop under 6MB anytime, obviously not guaranteed incase there's a heavy load or fault on the line.
Virgin's technical support answer script conclusion is I should log on to their online agent chat that hasn't worked for the past three days whenever I've tried it and then run line tests that they can monitor, he also tried explaining this has a turn-a-round time of about 5 days but once I explained I've been through this before for over 2 months and was then told they can't physically fix it unless more people complain he soon changed his tone. (FYI, people in my area complaining about broadband issues is about the equivalent of poverty afflicted children complaining that their Bentley needs polishing).
Any suggestions and/or recommendations regarding how I could approach this situation with Virgin without requesting a MAC code would be greatly appreciated  

[kitz]

>> He setup a downgrade from 8MB IPStream to 2MB Datastream

Sounds like they transferred you from rate-adaptive maxdsl to a fixed rate line.

>> as they had upgraded all their equipment and it was basically too primitive

Depends if you are now LLU...  or maxdsl either IPStream or DataStream (both via BTw systems).

Its true that BTw are now doing away with fixed rate lines and encouraging ISPs to move their customers over to maxdsl by making it cheaper.  However what some of the larger ISPs seem to be totally unaware of..  is that theres still a fixed rate equivalent on max called max capped rate in order to stabilise lines that have problems with the rate adaptive product.

Re LLU - Virgin are actually moving some lines over to LLU provisioned by C&W (ex Bulldog network).   You can check if you exchange has a Virgin/Bulldog/C&W prescence using the adsl checker

 

>> I rang BT Broadband and spoke to them about switching over from Virgin and they checked my line stats and explained I'm they were amazing results since I live like two streets away from the exchange and that if I did ever switch over I shouldn't expect my line to drop under 6MB anytime, obviously not guaranteed incase their is heavy load or a fault.


Hmmm ..  its not unknown for BT to promise such things.
What does the adsl checker say about your line estimated speed? - This info comes from the BTw database.

Can you post your router line stats please so that we can have a look at how your line is performing..  which should give a better estimation.

[dayvh]

I can't actually pull up my line stats as of recently as I'm using the latest ST330 drivers and the discontinued Dr ST that I got from a link on the line stats page is quite old and detects via drivers I think so it completely fails to identify my modem.
Would you recommend I mention that newer equivalent of fixed rate, max capped rate, to someone at Virgin over the phone and see what they can do about sorting me out with that?

Exchange check results:

Distance:-     Direct:             339 metres
     (appx)*    By Road:    644 metres

BT Line Speed Estimation:
    Fixed ADSL:      2048 kbps      (2 Mb)
   DSL Max :      8000 kbps    (8 Mb)
   21CN WBC :    Not Available

RAG Test Results:
    Fixed:     1Mbps and 2Mbps available
   radsl:    512Kbps and 256Kbps available
   MAX:    ADSL Max is available
   TPON:    No info in database

Market 1:  BT Wholesale is the only Market Operator
However you should still be able to get adsl from many other IPStream ISPs such as Zen, Plusnet, IDNet, Enta etc

[dayvh]

Update: I actually rang Virgin and spoke to them about the max capped rate and the guy on the phone seemed very evasive and said he'd never heard of it and didn't have any clue what it was. I kind of explained what I'd read from your post Kitz and basically said It's roughly the equivalent of the 2MB fixed rate line that they had me on last year and I'd like to get some more information about it and possibly have them hook me up with it. He then contacted someone higher up and they said they'd never heard of it and the best they could come up with was this which they forwarded to me in an email after.

IP Profile Reset Procedure

Click connect in themorning and leave it connected then disconnect from the internet last thing at night. Repeat this process for around 4 days and the customers IP profile should reset, improving the customers throughput speed.

NEVER disconnect the customer during this period by asking them to turn off their router or unplug the modem from their computer.

After 4 days, and while the customer is disconnected from the internet, re-sync the modem or router by powering it down, leaving it down for about 20 minutes, and power back on. This should re-establish a connection at a faster speed. Start the process again, if the connection speed is still lower than the customers potential speed.

[roseway]

I suppose you haven't got a note of any stats from earlier, do you? Without knowing at least the downstream attenuation it's not going to be possible to be certain, but it does look as though your line should be capable of much better results than you are seeing.

The other thing of note is that you are using a rather old USB modem, and most people use a router these days. There are many advantages to a router, both in performance and in security, so it would be worth upgrading.

I've just seen your latest post, and I have to say that the information from Virgin doesn't address your problem (that's the polite way to put it ). It's quite possible that you do have a low IP profile for some reason, but that wouldn't account for the very high latency spikes which, as I understand it, are your most serious problem.

[dayvh]

I don't even really know how to explain the latency spikes. I'd probably say my latency just turns to garble between 7am and midnight with even the slightest bit of download/upload activity, IE, playing games and the tiny amount of game data and net data that is uploaded/downloaded constantly.
I was looking at the DrayTek Vigor 120 as some pretty rough reviews branded it as the worst pile of tosh ever when it came out as it kept dropping the line which resulted in automatic reduction of sync speed by the exchange but apparently a recent beta firmware has made it rock solid like the Vigor 100.
I'm not very experienced in purchasing modems/routers and I definitely don't want any bloatware, IE, built in firewalls/wireless. I just want something simple, polished and solid and built for the one function without all the automatic and extra un-needed features.

Edit: I also just realised my ST330 is 3 years old now and perhaps that could be the cause? I'm not sure what any of the information in the diagnostics of the drivers even means besides Bulk and Iso but there does seem to be a small amount of errors/invalid values to say I've had the connection active for the past few hours since reboot. I did also used to blue screen quite alot due to some crappy defunct Crucial memory, could that mess up the IP Profile on my ST330 with having to Start > Connect To > My ISP every time I get back into Windows?

ADSL Tab:
Line Rate - Transmit: 448, Receive: 7456
Errors - Loss of Signal: 1, Loss of Link: 0, Loss of Framing: 1, Error Seconds: 1

ATM Tab:
Bandwidth (Kbps) - Transmit: 832, Receive: 8128
Cell Count - Transmitted: 951617, Received: 2978250, Loopback: 0, Invalid: 146, Cell Delineation Error: 0

Active Connection Time: 1:58:00

[kitz]

  (appx)*    By Road:    644 metres

In theory then you should be able to acheive 8Mb (and more) without any problems.
In erring on the extreme side of caution and  that even if your line goes all round the houses and the length is double that..   your attenuation would maximum be around 15dB.

Market 1:  BT Wholesale is the only Market Operator

Unlikely then that youre on LLU... so either BTw IPStream or DataStream - dslmax

BT Line Speed Estimation:
    Fixed ADSL:      2048 kbps      (2 Mb)
   DSL Max :      8000 kbps    (8 Mb)

You should have no problems in your area getting the 8Mb.

Have you tried the test socket to see if your connection speed is any better from there.

I can't actually pull up my line stats as of recently as I'm using the latest ST330 drivers

The ST330 can sometimes be a bit tricky to get stats from..  and it quite often will throw an error message.  However despite the error message it still often provides the stats to a text file.
The ST330 sometimes has problems with maxdsl.. but if you are using the latest drivers then you should be ok.

I actually rang Virgin and spoke to them about the max capped rate and the guy on the phone seemed very evasive and said he'd never heard of it and didn't have any clue what it was.

As mentioned above - this seems typical for some of the larger ISPs
If they read the BTw Max Customer Handbook, then they should realise it is entirely possible to ask BTw to put you on either:-

~ BT IPStream Max Capped Rate Profile 2000  or
~ BT DataStream Max Capped Rate Profile 2000

These newer products are the maxdsl equivalents of the old fixed rate products.
Its also mentioned in BT SIN 485 page 16 - where it tells the ISP how to request this

However..  before doing that I see no reason why you shouldnt be able to get the full 8Mb and theres something else stopping this.
The latency spikes are worrying me indicating possible EMI interference -> high error rates.
Although saying that Virgin IPStream DSL sometimes has its problems with congestion on their centrals.

To be perfectly honest  we really need to see linestats to find out exactly just what is happening.
Is there anyone that could lend you a router for a couple of days?

...  Alternatively..  ask Virgin is they can arrange a WOOSH test for xDSL status check.
If they are co-operative they may give you the results.

[kitz]

Our last posts crossed - just seen some stats of sorts.. 

Is your line always connected at around those figures?   If so it may be congestion on the Virgin Central pipes that is causing high latency and slower throughput!

[dayvh]

I don't really check the diagnostics that much but I'd say they tend to be around those figures yes, I live in a small village of about 10,000 though so it shouldn't be that bad. My close friend is on 8MB with Demon and I ran your ADSL check on his line, he lives directly 38metres from the exchange, approx 112metres via road and his connection is near superb all the time even though his setup is horrible. (ADSL2 Router/Modem with router disabled and that's plugged into an Apple Airport and his MAC connects to that on wireless lol)

I am now very tempted to ring Virgin for the third time today and actually use the specific information you left in your post regarding the handbook to actually get them to read and sort it out for me.

[orainsear]

Is there any particular reason why you wouldn't consider moving to another ISP?

[kitz]

>> I am now very tempted to ring Virgin for the third time today and actually use the specific information you left in your post regarding the handbook to actually get them to read and sort it out for me.

By all means feel free. 
However  I feel that setting your line at 2Mb would be a cop out.  By all accounts that line should be capable of much more.

What is undecided atm is whether its a problem with your connection.. or if its ISP related.
To find that out we'd need to see full line stats..  preferably with routerstats running on it for a while just to make sure youre not getting some sort of ElectroMagnetic Interfernce from some where.

I know youre using a modem, which makes testing from the master socket difficult.. but have you tried this just to ensure its not internal wiring?

[dayvh]

Yeah I rang up and asked about the profiles you'd mentioned. Virgin just make me feel like I can't be arsed. The 2nd call I made today when the guy said he'd contacted technical support to ask about the profiles and he said they didn't know anything about them was talking out of his arse. The third call I just made the guy was kind of half understanding, he recommended I plug into the test socket and was talking about REIN and stuff. HOWEVER the best part is the fact he mentioned technical support are off today and all tech support calls are being forwarded to the front line support (all they care about is if your internet works or if it doesn't, none of the inbetweens) because It's bank holiday monday. My most recent call I was bounced from tech support to customer support and then back to support. I asked if he could check their list of profiles and actually tell me if it was even possible for him to request the profile from BTw for me but understandably he said he didn't have access to any profile stuff as he wasn't actually tech support because they're off work today.
I'm frustrated because I can't really argue any points as I don't fully understand ADSL. Are half of the resolutions they come up with even relevant since my internet works fine from midnight til 8am? Why don't they just put me on this new fixed rate profile, it seems pretty logical as a fixed rate profile fixed my connection before?
I'm now being forwarded to the virgin remote chat to schedule a WOOSH test with an agent. Great big pile of tosh that chat system is though, has no queuing ability. User just has to refresh til the icon appears(means an agent is available)..
I'm now honestly looking at switching my ISP as it took 3 months of phone calls to Virgin to get my line fixed last time and even then it was only because somebody with a clue was on the other end of the phone. The first two people I spoke to today didn't even know what ping or latency was!
I'm pretty burned out for today but tomorow I'll try and get the ST330 into the test socket downstairs and get my PC down there and see how that goes.

[jeffbb]

Hi dayvh

You do sound in the dumps    Non illegitimis carborundum. You will get help from this site . You think you have problems , well I was with Ti....i that was real hard work. Now with big Z and life is sweet . As Kitz says you should be able to have a great BB connection .No point in settling for anything less.  How long before you can Jump ship ?. The st330 is OK I used it and performance wise no problem . unfortunately you cannot see all the stats easily. That's where a reasonable router is better and it is more secure. Even if you are not technically minded its worth getting one . Very easy to set up about  10 minutes from getting out of the box  (plenty of help here ,I can vouch for that) .

Regards Jeff

[dayvh]

I'm pretty smart when it comes to computer hardware, even basic home networking hardware, just not entirely up to date with the best brands and what's best right now. I am a little down in the dumps and I'm infuriated right now because of a call I made about 6 months ago to Virgin where I was asking why the heck I was back on 8MB without any warning or anything. It wasn't as bad as the first time but I noticed a different right away, especially during peak times but for them to turn around and tell me on several occasions they didn't support the amazingly stable line I had anymore and for me to find out today there's a new variation of it and they're just too dumb to actually do their job and keep up to date with critical information that they should know just gets on my nerves.
I don't care security wise about router/modem .etc as I whenever I get anything remotely dodgy I just format and one of the perks of being with virgin is I have a dynamic IP and on this USB ST330 it takes me no longer than 10 secs to actually change my IP and hostname. Wierd how the hostnames I'm assigned are from all over the country though, bournemouth.virgin.net, newcastle.virgin.net, manchester.virgin.net, london.virgin.net and so on haha. I even did a few tracerts yesterday to google after connecting and reconnecting and 4/12 different connections the first hop timed out.
Could you also define jump ship btw? I can have a new modem in under a month depending on when I next get paid, contract wise with virgin I took out a 12 month contract 3 years ago so I can now get out at any time.

[kitz]

>> he recommended I plug into the test socket and was talking about REIN and stuff

This guy sounds like he knows a bit more.  REIN is what I was on about when I mentioned EMI (Electromagnetic Interference).
Most EMI comes from within the home - hence why its best testing from the test socket.

To be fair most of the first line staff on the larger ISPs wont be aware of capped rate profiles.. but 2nd line/tech support should be.

>> I asked if he could check their list of profiles

You may be able to check your IP profile from the BTw Performance Tester.  It may not work however if you are on Datastream.


>> Are half of the resolutions they come up with even relevant since my internet works fine from midnight til 8am?

Possibly - its not unusual for EMI problems to get worse in the evenings..  more people are at home... more electrical appliances switched on.
There are ways which this can be monitored if you have a router... but unfortunately not with a modem.

However..  Virgin central congestion historically also get worse in the evenings too.  
Without being able to monitor your line conditions in the evenings.. its hard to say.

BUT ..  if your latency does get high.. and throughput is much lower and your connection status remains static at 8Mb.. then it could be ISP congestion.
The main reason why Virgin DSL was rated so poorly on the ISP ratings, was because of their state of their centrals.  I don't think theres been many ratings of late.. because most of the users that frequent this site, moved elsewhere because of it :/