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Author Topic: 3 Years of hassling BT, yet still not solved  (Read 8111 times)

Undead

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3 Years of hassling BT, yet still not solved
« on: August 15, 2009, 11:33:37 PM »

Hi all, first post here. I'll try and keep this post short despite the length of the on-going issue.

My area can only get around 5Mbps on LLU (Even less on BT Wholesale ISP's due to a very high training target SNR), but this doesn't add up because I've seen people getting ~14Mbps with the same attenuation (~38dB) as me on ADSL2+, and many many people getting full 8Mbps sync with the same attentuation on ADSL2.

On top of this, my line works how I'd expect it to every time there is a power-cut. (UPS  :)) It even lasts for 10 minutes after a power-cut, at which point suddenly the SNR plummets until Sync is lost. It then re-syncs and I'm back to my laggy 4meg of throughput.

BT point-blank denied any issues until recently when a Engineer confirmed the line gives several more megabips at the nearest CAB. However they have still yet to do fix the source of this problem.

My full router stats are posted below, and i'm hoping some of you can help finally solve this. I have a portable AM radio here if that can help at all?

Power-Cut Performance

Normal Performance


Code: [Select]
ADSL driver and PHY status
Status: ShowtimeRetrain Reason: 1
Channel: INTR, Upstream rate = 768 Kbps, Downstream rate = 5024 Kbps
Link Power State: L0
Mode: G.DMT
Channel: Interleave
Trellis: ON
Line Status: No Defect
Training Status: Showtime
Down Up
SNR (dB): 6.9 14.0
Attn(dB): 38.0 25.0
Pwr(dBm): 19.8 9.4
Max(Kbps): 5696 1216
Rate (Kbps): 5024 768
G.dmt framing
K: 158(0) 25
R: 16 16
S: 1 8
D: 64 8
ADSL2 framing
MSGc: 51 68
B: 58 23
M: 4 8
T: 3 1
R: 12 16
S: 1.5145 7.7037
L: 1310 216
D: 64 8
Counters
SF: 305618 305622
SFErr: 0 0
RS: 20782090 2596784
RSCorr: 2112185 0
RSUnCorr: 0 0

HEC: 0 0
OCD: 0 0
LCD: 0 0
Total Cells: 61562444 0
Data Cells: 2100432 0
Drop Cells: 0
Bit Errors: 0 0

ES: 49 1
SES: 8 0
UAS: 7412 30
AS: 5196

INP: 2.34 2.37
PER: 16.18 17.81
delay: 24.23 15.40
OR: 28.17 33.23

Bitswap: 0 0

Total time = 1 days 14 hours 3 min 23 sec
SF  = 328973
CRC = 1325
LOS = 8
LOF = 72
ES  = 49
Latest 1 day time = 14 hours 3 min 23 sec
SF  = 328973
CRC = 1325
LOS = 5
LOF = 45
ES  = 5
« Last Edit: August 15, 2009, 11:36:28 PM by Undead »
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waltergmw

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Re: 3 Years of hassling BT, yet still not solved
« Reply #1 on: August 15, 2009, 11:52:24 PM »

Hi Undead and welcome,

I think you'll need to list some of the things you have already done to eliminate the problem.

Have you taken all the steps recommended here to optimise your house wiring?

The obvious point is that during a power cut you have also seem to have eliminated noise sources.
If so that begs the question as to what is causing the noise?
Have you any near neighbours and have you experimented by turning off just your mains supply?

The Gurus will almost certainly have more questions for you once you have provided us with some more detail.

Kind regards,
Walter
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Undead

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Re: 3 Years of hassling BT, yet still not solved
« Reply #2 on: August 16, 2009, 12:03:54 AM »

Hi waltergmw, the router is plugged directly into my Master Socket (I have no Extensions) with a ADSLNation Faceplate. I do not own a house phone at the moment so the router is the only thing connected to the phone line. I've also tried several different routers as well as using a alternative microfilter from the test socket.

When I cut my own power the SNR remains un-affected, but i've been unable to obtain permission to cut my neighbours power. (How illegal would it be for me to cut the rest of the building off just for 30 seconds while I leave DMT logging?)

I live in a 6-property flat building and noticed that all the lines come in from underground literally within 1-2cm of the buildings mains cable but i've been told this would all be shielded so is not the cause?

I'm also confused because a TDR? Line Distance test says my line is only 179meters, despite it being around the expected length for a 38dB line.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2009, 12:07:25 AM by Undead »
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waltergmw

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Re: 3 Years of hassling BT, yet still not solved
« Reply #3 on: August 16, 2009, 12:21:45 AM »

Hi again Undead,

Have you discovered what speeds others in the flats get ?

Have you managed to get BT O to swop the D side pair from the green cabinet to your flats, or even from the distribution point in the building?

Have you run Routersats to observe how the noise margin varies over time ?

Kind regards,
Walter
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Undead

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Re: 3 Years of hassling BT, yet still not solved
« Reply #4 on: August 16, 2009, 12:33:54 AM »

I think everyone here is in the same-boat as me, the last BT engineer mentioned that he'd visted another property here and they had even lower sync.

Only one cable goes from this building to the CAB via underground, but I haven't been changed to another pair on this cable.

I've ran DMT's SNR Logging before. My SNR does not vary that much, by 0.6 at most during a 24 hour period. I'll grab RouterStats and start running it so I can provide you with graphs.
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waltergmw

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Re: 3 Years of hassling BT, yet still not solved
« Reply #5 on: August 16, 2009, 08:40:32 AM »

Hi Undead again,

It seems you have a reasonably strong case that there is some sort of local REIN problem.
Unless it's going to start an internecine war within the flats there does seem a very strong reason to get everyone to co-operate and turn off their mains supply in turn to isolate the culprit.
Perhaps you might do it by asking your neighbours to do so at their convenience, such as going away for the week end.
If the neighbours are uncooperative I suggest you have to raise a formal complaint via BT Openreach.

Kind regards,
Walter
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kitz

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Re: 3 Years of hassling BT, yet still not solved
« Reply #6 on: August 16, 2009, 09:16:26 AM »

Certainly sounds like REIN coming from a neighbouring property.
Have you tried the radio trick to see if it helps pinpoint an area?
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orainsear

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Re: 3 Years of hassling BT, yet still not solved
« Reply #7 on: August 16, 2009, 10:21:35 AM »

all the lines come in from underground literally within 1-2cm of the buildings mains cable but i've been told this would all be shielded so is not the cause?

Any chance you could post a picture of this?
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Undead

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Re: 3 Years of hassling BT, yet still not solved
« Reply #8 on: August 16, 2009, 08:30:40 PM »

Here is a image of the Mains and Phone Cables. The phone line cable runs behind the Mains into a BT Box which has CAT5 going to each flat. (Am I right in assuming most of the damage would be coming from the Earth?)


I'm not exactly sure what to do with the AM radio to track the noise down, I've read the REIN page here but even my ADSL cable screams on the radio (Shielded Belkin RJ11!) and I am not sure of the difference between the sound Mains elec is meant to normally make when near the radio compared to what i'm hearing from almost every cable I put the radio near.

I'll start trying to catch my neighbours when they are not busy, but I get the impression some of them will say no, so would prefer someone with authority (BT) to ask them.

Edit: Also can this be classed as REIN as its constant not random noise?
« Last Edit: August 16, 2009, 08:39:01 PM by Undead »
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sevenlayermuddle

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Re: 3 Years of hassling BT, yet still not solved
« Reply #9 on: August 16, 2009, 10:03:21 PM »

Hi Undead,

I see you have  UPS, thus you survive the power cut.  Is there any possibility, however, that the problems you experience coincide with the power coming back on again...?

....My own experience with power cuts (I don't have UPS) is that I always get a dreadful sync speed after the power somes back on.  I attribute that to the fact that everything electrical, from fridges to CH motors to DECT phones and the rest, are all springing to life at exactly the same moment, and the cumulative effect is - for a few moments at least - an untypically high level of electrical noise.  Is there any chance that could be what's happening in your case, too?

Failing that, another comment would be that perhaps your UPS itself could be the source of the interference, although I see you've already said you can cut your own power with no problems.  However, do any of your neighbours have UPS, and in which case I wonder, could one of their UPS's be the cuplrit?
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orainsear

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Re: 3 Years of hassling BT, yet still not solved
« Reply #10 on: August 18, 2009, 01:52:13 PM »

Am I right in assuming most of the damage would be coming from the Earth?
Quote

If there was an earth fault (leakage to earth) then there would be problems, however if there was an earth fault it would be (hopefully) manifesting itself elsewhere and there would be circuit breaker trips etc.

Edit: Also can this be classed as REIN as its constant not random noise?

There does appear to be a source of noise, whether it's repetitive, constant, electrical or electromagnetic it is still an issue so I wouldn't worry too much about what it's called.

The picture indeed does show the telephone cable to be in close proximity to what I presume is the main electrical feed for the building.  Ideally the cables should be perpendicular to each other, i.e. at 90 degrees.  It is possible that the noise is being transferred where the two cables are in the same vicinity, however this may be a red herring and the problem could well be elsewhere.

Perhaps Ezzer could comment on the orientation of these cables.
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Undead

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Re: 3 Years of hassling BT, yet still not solved
« Reply #11 on: August 18, 2009, 06:17:06 PM »

I highly doubt any of my neighbours own a UPS, and the first time my power went I did not own the UPS either, I simply noticed that my broadband synced at over 7Mbps when the power came back.

I'm having no luck with my ISP or BT, so I guess its time to call it quits on this. I'll just have to put up with my 530KB/s with over 45ms to the DSLAM. This is of course unless any of you have a idea on how I can get this sorted.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2009, 06:26:33 PM by Undead »
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jid

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Re: 3 Years of hassling BT, yet still not solved
« Reply #12 on: August 18, 2009, 06:24:30 PM »

Don't give up  ;)

This may be an odd one, but could the UPS be the cause of the issue? Has the problem happened when you had the UPS connected?

As for the mains cable, I believe a while back we had a thread of someone living in flats and the outside post lights were causing REIN all coming on at the same time?

As for power cuts, whenever we have one here, I switch the router off and leave it a few minutes then connect it as I miss most of the sudden lapse of em noise.
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BT FTTP - 75meg | Sky Q |  Bridgend Weather

orainsear

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Re: 3 Years of hassling BT, yet still not solved
« Reply #13 on: August 18, 2009, 06:30:09 PM »

I simply noticed that my broadband synced at over 7Mbps when the power came back.

Well that's interesting enough to suggest that the source of the interference could well be an appliance or electrical device somewhere within your block of flats.

How long was it after the power being restored before you noticed a problem with your connection?
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Undead

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Re: 3 Years of hassling BT, yet still not solved
« Reply #14 on: August 18, 2009, 06:35:30 PM »

The UPS can not be the cause of the noise, I didn't own the UPS until after the first power cut. I bought the UPS in the hopes of another power cut so I could log more details.

After every powercut the noise is completly gone for just over 10 minutes, then my SNR rapidly goes down until sync is lost.

Why shouldn't I give up? Its been over 3 years of me pestering my ISP and BT. I've experienced over 900KB/s on this line and yet BT call me a liar and say that my speeds are perfectly normal for my 38dB attenuation. Yet I constanty see other peoples line stats that contridict this.

Example: (From The 'Devestated' Thread on here)
                Down            Up
SNR (dB):       5.9             18.0
Attn(dB):       56.0            31.0
Pwr(dBm):       19.4            12.2
Max(Kbps):      4480            940
Rate (Kbps):    4448            448

My current stats:
      Down      Up
SNR (dB):   7.3      13.0
Attn(dB):   38.0      25.0
Pwr(dBm):   19.8      8.0
Max(Kbps):   5440      1248
Rate (Kbps):   4864      768
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