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Author Topic: Advice Please  (Read 13993 times)

jeffbb

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Re: Advice Please
« Reply #15 on: August 06, 2009, 07:53:12 PM »

Hi

quote@ Mist: Reported to ISP that I had been  getting a low througput on bt speedtester on July 24th still synch at 6420 noise margin set at 6db

Your present attenuation is 56db. This normally would equate to something like 3400Kbps synch speed with the default 6db target SNR. Your present synch is 3808Kbps which is good for a line with 56db attenuation ,especially with a 9db target SNR.(that can lose you up to 800Kbps.) that would take your line to about 4600Kbps .VERY good  for that line length.
To achieve a synch speed of 6240Kbps ,I would expect your attenuation to be around 43db . ?? Or is that 6420 a typo ? (4620?)

Getting to the root of the noise problem is a must to ensure your target does not get any worse. Unfortunately even when that is sorted it  may be months before your target SNR returns to 6db . The dslam has a mind of its own.
Regards Jeff
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mist

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Re: Advice Please
« Reply #16 on: August 06, 2009, 08:29:05 PM »

many apologies I typed the numbers incorrectly ..
These are the speedtests that I contacted the isp about, I had spent a very long time indeed reading then doing everything that this and other forums class as  ;)good practise, and yes it is a 56db line but in winter it was 55db....

I  intend trying to sort this noise problem out most urgently, I am hoping that the exchange work is not the cause 'cos if so I am stuck with this rotten noisy line :(



 July24th Test1 comprises of Best Effort Test:  -provides background information.
    Your DSL connection rate: 4640 kbps(DOWN-STREAM),  448 kbps(UP-STREAM)
    IP profile for your line is - 4000 kbps
    Actual IP throughput achieved during the test was - 2151 kbps  

July 21st  Test1 comprises of Best Effort Test:  -provides background information.
    Your DSL connection rate: 4640 kbps(DOWN-STREAM),  448 kbps(UP-STREAM)
    IP profile for your line is - 4000 kbps
    Actual IP throughput achieved during the test was - 1211 kbps


The following is one around the date I changed ISP, which was done to lack of evening/weekend throughput, severe congestion

Test1 comprises of Best Effort Test:  -provides background information.
    Your DSL connection rate: 4672 kbps(DOWN-STREAM),  448 kbps(UP-STREAM)
    IP profile for your line is - 4000 kbps
    Actual IP throughput achieved during the test was - 3726 kbps
« Last Edit: August 06, 2009, 08:35:07 PM by mist »
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sevenlayermuddle

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Re: Advice Please
« Reply #17 on: August 06, 2009, 08:50:38 PM »

You're still doing not bad for your attenuation, and for that reason neither your ISP nor BTw are going to regard it as much of a 'problem'.  Don't get me wrong, you've convinced me, at least, that your line is/was capable of more, but it's probably going to be down to yourself (and the forum) to get any improvement.

One thing that I think Jeff's already mentioned... even if you identify the 'fault' that's causing the dips in your SNR, you'll still be on that 9dB margin.  So even after the 'problem' is fixed,  you may not sync at a better speed.  BTw's DLM may reduce your margin back to 6dB after a few weeks, or a few months, or (quite likely) never. 

You can overcome DLM by tweaking your noise margin, but you'd be best to identify what's causing the dips first, else your tweaked margin is likely to go up by another 3dB, and another and so on.

One other thing that's already been mentioned, and it's a sore point with me as I've been there & got the T-Shirt... RESIST any temptation to expirement with things too quickly.    If DLM sees too many resyncs, you'll get another 3dB on your margin, and another, until you're at 15dB.  The actual limit on resyncs isn't publicly documented, but I'm aware of rumours it may be ten in an hour.

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kitz

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Re: Advice Please
« Reply #18 on: August 07, 2009, 01:36:20 AM »

>> but I can't say I've heard of a 'battery error', and can't imagine what it would mean or why it would be equated with a dodgy cable.

Must admit I saw that too and wondered.

>> getting a low througput on bt speedtester on July 24th still synch at 6420 noise margin set at 6db
>> When I joined them I was apparently on a 'hot vp' so they did a tied pair modification with a card change as well.,

You are very lucky to get that for a hot vp! 
Ive been in some pretty dire situation with a hot VP in the past and getting BT to do a VP swap is nigh on impossible.  One case involved very low speeds frequently going way below the 400 kbps threshold.. and despite some fairly high ranking people getting involved and me graphing speeds daily for a few months..  BT wouldn't budge. 
Took Ben Verwayeen himself to get things moving and even then I opted to go on 20:1 at additional cost to make sure it didnt occur again.
Ive also been involved in another dire situation going back further and it took 30+ users on the same VP and complaints from all of us via different ISPs to get BT to upgrade the VP.

Most other times though Ive just had to sit and wait it through... Since Max they use SuperVPs.. ie one large backhaul per MSAN, so a full lift and shift needed with some downtime.

I may be wrong but iirc your current ISP had some problems with capacity over the past couple of months and they had to wait for some new 21CN capacity.. and they also moved some users over to other (max) centrals to ease congestion.

>> Routerstats is not a good programme to monitor with.

Its a damn good tool and has helped identify and resolve many adsl problems.
I use MRTG which is the industry standard for long term logging, but if I want to quickly and easily monitor something in more detail I wouldnt hesitate to also use routerstats.


-------------------


You say youre on Max - but I notice your router is reporting some adsl2 framing...  are you on 21CN do you know?
Check on the adsl exchange checker to see if its available at your exchange.

>> it is a 56db line but in winter it was 55db.

Possible and not unusual.. but a 1dB increase could be adsl2+..  often it may be more, but because youre not actually making use of the higher frequencies, then it wont make as much difference as normal.  Also thinking your approaching the limits where adsl2+ gives little advantage over adsl1


Long shot, but Im wondering if theres possibly some adsl2+ freakiness going on here.

TBH it looks on the face of it still looks like some sort of EMI coming from somewhere... and therefore follow the advice already given by the others.
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mist

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Re: Advice Please
« Reply #19 on: August 07, 2009, 02:57:28 PM »

System Up Time 265:35:22
Port Status TxPkts RxPkts Collisions Tx B/s Rx B/s Up Time
WAN PPPoA 37740 46857 0 139 637 17:28:57
LAN 10M/100M 1506375 1197697 0 1384 207 265:35:13
WLAN 11M/54M/270M 678091 433706 0 16987 1511 13:23:48
 

ADSL Link Downstream Upstream
Connection Speed 3808 kbps 448 kbps
Line Attenuation 56.0 db 31.5 db
Noise Margin 8.9 db 17.0 db
 
I am gradually drawing up a list now of your suggestions and trying to work through them and Thank everyone very much indeed.
My exchange is NDNEW, Market1 and no date for anything other than ADSLMAX. So the fact the router is showing ADSL2 I don't understand but noticed that my router is reporting it seems to me an odd set of figures today. Plus my routerstats , which I love as a programme :) is showing very bad wobbles indeed as if everything is deteriorating fast.
My ISP...yes within 48hours of my migrattion I was changed onto a differentnode or whatever as the one I was supposed to be on had gone pear-shaped plus That 'battery error' which was seen on their equipment and is connected with the phone line, or it could be a faulty ASDL cable I was told then it seems they changed the stuff at the exchange, and I have just received an email to say they are still trying to optimise traffic  :o and any problems re-boot  :no: :no: :no:!!! It does seem that my problems started with the migration. I am very cynical indeed.
My priority is though to find the noise source, then may look at other monthly ISP's..
Will test the NTE5 plate as suggested on Sunday plus I intend to strip out all the old surge protector, install another new Netgear, always been able to work them, install the new pc and as its Sunday hope it works...and of course load router stats and CCleaner ;D

As I said when I first dared to post, I am not technically minded but have tried to learn the way to optimise my set up and I have not  developed the habit of blaming it all on BT  ::)



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roseway

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Re: Advice Please
« Reply #20 on: August 07, 2009, 03:19:06 PM »

Quote
I have not  developed the habit of blaming it all on BT

That's a good open-minded position to take. BT are far from perfect, but they certainly aren't responsible for everything which goes wrong.
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waltergmw

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Re: Advice Please
« Reply #21 on: August 07, 2009, 07:24:49 PM »

Hi Mist,

However it is not impossible that the following might just have something to do with the problem as reported by SamKnows:-

19/10/2006     BT have set a target date of Q3 2009 for the switch to 21CN for the Newington exchange

Kind regards,
Walter
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Ezzer

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Re: Advice Please
« Reply #22 on: August 07, 2009, 08:57:22 PM »


Brand new Belkin RJ11 high speed ADSL cable 1 metre length after isp said 'battery error' showing on their test equipment. 17070 opt 2 gives a decent line with occasionally the sound of waves breaking on the shore, bt test said line ok..

Battery fault is where voltage is appearing on your line from somewhere (not the exchange) I've never heard of an ispbeing able to state an actual condition on a line apart from saying there's a fault on the line (which i think is a stanard respose wether ther is one or not) to state battery contact should mean an openreach engineer being called out.

"Sound of waves"  :no: shouldn't do that. Silence (apart from "Quiet line test" being announced every 30 seconds and maby a slow pluse noise a bit like a heartbeat) is ok
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mist

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Re: Advice Please
« Reply #23 on: August 07, 2009, 09:48:28 PM »


Brand new Belkin RJ11 high speed ADSL cable 1 metre length after isp said 'battery error' showing on their test equipment. 17070 opt 2 gives a decent line with occasionally the sound of waves breaking on the shore, bt test said line ok..

Battery fault is where voltage is appearing on your line from somewhere (not the exchange) I've never heard of an ispbeing able to state an actual condition on a line apart from saying there's a fault on the line (which i think is a stanard respose wether ther is one or not) to state battery contact should mean an openreach engineer being called out.

"Sound of waves"  :no: shouldn't do that. Silence (apart from "Quiet line test" being announced every 30 seconds and maby a slow pluse noise a bit like a heartbeat) is ok

I was just the customer on the end of the phone that day :(  I was asked to remove the ASDL cable from my router with no understanding as to why, then asked to replace it and was told the battery error thingy and it was suggested I got a new RJ11 if that didn't solve the error then it could be something else, loop loss was mentioned plus other things. Please remember that I don't actually understand a lot of these things, can only say what has been said.

It is reported that my isp has equipment similar to aaisp now so maybe they can 'see' these things :-\

I become more cynical daily as I am told that the card change also could not alter things. I think that if this weekends mass follow of ideas here and replacement of equipment doesn't work that I will email that I am willing to pay the cost of BT investigation, my line did not suddenly deteriorate 'just like that' and need also to follow up with questions re Walters post as well.


You are all being so very helpful and I can only say Thank you again
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sevenlayermuddle

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Re: Advice Please
« Reply #24 on: August 08, 2009, 12:24:34 AM »

Please remember that I don't actually understand a lot of these things

Actually, you seem to have a much, much, better understanding than any of the ISP call-centre operatives that I've ever had dealings with.  You have to give them a chance, obviously, but don't assume your ISP are 'expert'.  In many cases they simply haven't got a clue when it comes to anything vaguely technical. 

I've deliberately avoided checking back through the thread to remind myself who your ISP is, as the above comments are genuinely meant to be generic (with exceptions, of course, and maybe your ISP is one of them). :)
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mist

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Re: Advice Please
« Reply #25 on: August 09, 2009, 11:30:31 AM »

I intentionally have not mentioned the name of my isp, as if this is all my fault it would not be correct IMO to do so  ;D

and after himself very kindly crawled  under the desk, the language well  ;) and installed the new surge protected bank of plugs, we set up the new PC and mouse and keyboard but had to plug in the old router as Amazon couldn't get one here in time  ::)

I immediately loaded the full version of routerstats  :thumbs: and ran a speedtest, with which I am at present very pleased....the graph is looking great so far !!!

Will now wait the 5 days to see if profile goes up then will consider very seriously trying to get my Noise Margin back to 6db if graph looks good..still thinking of that Billion router  ;D

so the failure REIN, could have been caused by my own equipment but time will tell...

edited to add spoke to soon its just dropped again  :(



Test1 comprises of Best Effort Test:  -provides background information.
    Your DSL connection rate: 4064 kbps(DOWN-STREAM),  448 kbps(UP-STREAM)
    IP profile for your line is - 3000 kbps
    Actual IP throughput achieved during the test was - 2814 kbps

me 01:22:22
Port
Status
TxPkts
RxPkts
Collisions
Tx B/s
Rx B/s
   Up Time
WAN
PPPoA
71446
135050
0
1045
38581
   01:20:43
LAN
10M/100M
136116
72566
0
38249
1378
   01:22:14
WLAN
11M/54M/270M
3616
3014
0
535
85
   01:19:04
      ADSL Link
   Downstream
   Upstream
   Connection Speed
      4064 kbps
   448 kbps
      Line Attenuation
      56.0 db
      31.5 db
      Noise Margin
      9.0 db
      17.0 db
« Last Edit: August 09, 2009, 11:40:46 AM by mist »
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kitz

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Re: Advice Please
« Reply #26 on: August 09, 2009, 11:45:54 AM »

>> edited to add spoke to soon its just dropped again 

 :'(
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mist

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Re: Advice Please
« Reply #27 on: August 10, 2009, 09:24:26 AM »

Tears of joy here this am, whilst lazily drinking a coffee noticed routerstas showing a massive drop due to noise, for some unknown reason I did the quiet line test whilst watching the event, co-incidental was sat here with the phone, all I could hear was the sound of a phone ringing, on option2 after the first 2 quiet areas with just the voice announcement, in the distance echoing on my line. As the echo stopped routerstats recovered and the line was quiet again..

Immediately phone BT faults, didn't mention BB. They tested the line which was found to be faulty by their testing and immediately told me they have booked an engineers exchange call tomorrow as a 'fault was clearly shown' at local level ie the exchange...Cross talk was mentioned.

Now why do I get more cynical, after all I never had a problem until I was told the isp for reasons unknown changed my card in the exchange after that the noise problems on my BB started, followed by the battery error farce where I was told it was my ADSL cable at fault... and a higher noise margin going to 9db oops I forget that is due to line deterioration....

If this engineer sorts this problem tomorrow I am sure you can guess how I will rate my ISP particularly on 'support'
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roseway

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Re: Advice Please
« Reply #28 on: August 10, 2009, 09:34:32 AM »

:fingers:
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kitz

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Re: Advice Please
« Reply #29 on: August 10, 2009, 09:56:53 AM »

Quote
noticed routerstas showing a massive drop due to noise, for some unknown reason I did the quiet line test whilst watching the event, co-incidental was sat here with the phone, all I could hear was the sound of a phone ringing, on option2 after the first 2 quiet areas with just the voice announcement, in the distance echoing on my line. As the echo stopped routerstats recovered and the line was quiet again..

Well done for finding that - looks like you obviously have an intermittent line fault.

Good luck with the engineer appointment and please do let us know how it goes. :fingers:
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